Just for Fun No C&C will be given: A "difference of opinion"

[John Angulat]

The gentlemen questioned the freshness of the clams.
The seller took offense...

Life in New York...from my wanderings​

 

[Asher Kelman]

The gentlemen questioned the freshness of the clams.
The seller took offense...

Life in New York...from my wanderings​

John,

Once agan you scored a home run! This like the picture on "organic sausages" is iconic of the New York attitude we feel as soon as we land and get into a taxi!

More!

Asher

 

[John Angulat]

Hi Asher,
Thanks!
I'm often amused/bemused at the reaction I receive here to many of my images.
I'm still trying to understand what exactly the viewer feels.
Amusement? Bewilderment? Disdain for urban life? Curiosity?
Who knows?
What's more amusing is how I view them.
They're simply glimpses of everyday life.

 

[Asher Kelman]

What's more amusing is how I view them.
They're simply glimpses of everyday life.

Hardly that, John!

There's timing here and great selection. You had to position yourself, be aware of the vibrations and then take the picture with a good composition at the right moment. Most folk allow these events to slip by. You actually do not have much insight it seems to the fact that the majority of folk have blinders on, like a horse pulling a wagon. I have passed folk sleeping in doorways at night and my companions, in town for a science congress, had no notice, recollection or knowledge that the folk were even there.

In fact, I'd say, we're designed to assess most happenings in passing, without even "knowing", on a most active level in the hardworking brains we have. It's part of our alert mind but hidden from consciousness, so we do not get overload of executive requests for decision-making. So most folk simple are protected from anything that is not life-threatening, a friend in need at least of a greeting to acknowledge their existence, an opportunity to mate or eat, get rich and so forth.

You, however, have developed windows to the world normally filtered out! It's actually extraordinary. Cedric Massoulier has a similar gift as does Cem Usakligil who notice things about streets and portals that others would simply not value as much.

Asher

 

[Cem_Usakligil]

Hi Asher,
Thanks!
I'm often amused/bemused at the reaction I receive here to many of my images.
I'm still trying to understand what exactly the viewer feels.
Amusement? Bewilderment? Disdain for urban life? Curiosity?
Who knows?
What's more amusing is how I view them.
They're simply glimpses of everyday life.

Hi John,

I feel a variation of all those (except for the disdain part) plus some others you did not mention. Coming from an equally big and hectic city myself (i.e. Istanbul) and having been to NYC many times, I too feel very familiar with these glimpses of everyday life. They are comforting to me. Thank you so much for sharing these with us, it really puts a smile on my face every time I see another one.

Cheers,

 

[John Angulat]

Hardly that, John!

There's timing here and great selection. You had to position yourself, be aware of the vibrations and then take the picture with a good composition at the right moment. Most folk allow these events to slip by. You actually do not have much insight it seems to the fact that the majority of folk have blinders on, like a horse pulling a wagon. I have passed folk sleeping in doorways at night and my companions, in town for a science congress, had no notice, recollection or knowledge that the folk were even there.

In fact, I'd say, we're designed to assess most happenings in passing, without even "knowing", on a most active level in the hardworking brains we have. It's part of our alert mind but hidden from consciousness, so we do not get overload of executive requests for decision-making. So most folk simple are protected from anything that is not life-threatening, a friend in need at least of a greeting to acknowledge their existence, an opportunity to mate or eat, get rich and so forth.

You, however, have developed windows to the world normally filtered out! It's actually extraordinary. Cedric Massoulier has a similar gift as does Cem Usakligil who notice things about streets and portals that others would simply not value as much.

Asher

Well Asher, you've once again left me fumbling for a way to say thank you.
More than the appreciative remarks for the image itself, you have allowed me to better understand just what it is I do. That may sound strange but I've often struggled (and still do) to define my own style, and to understand what there may be common to the vast majority of my images.
You spoke of having developed "windows to the world normally filtered out". That statement gave me great pause, as it succinctly described what I've been trying to do all along - simply capture those momentary glimpses of everyday life we "see", but seldom consciously remember.
Much of my work is about remembering...the street vendors, odd characters and performers, folks living everyday life and such. These are the things you see every day, but seldom give more than a passing glance. But if asked later if you remember, one usually does. My images simply amplify the memory.
Thanks again!

 

[John Angulat]

Hi John,

I feel a variation of all those (except for the disdain part) plus some others you did not mention. Coming from an equally big and hectic city myself (i.e. Istanbul) and having been to NYC many times, I too feel very familiar with these glimpses of everyday life. They are comforting to me. Thank you so much for sharing these with us, it really puts a smile on my face every time I see another one.

Cheers,

Hi Cem,
I always guessed you "understood" and I'm happy to have been able to stir a memory or two (and maybe a smile!).
Thanks for the kind words, they're very much appreciated!

 

[Ken Tanaka]

John,

Which elements / attributes of this image do you feel work well and which are weak?

 

[John Angulat]

John,

Which elements / attributes of this image do you feel work well and which are weak?

Ken,
As you know, critique and analysis are not my strong points.
Lacking that ability hinders my growth as a photographer, I know that.
Nevertheless, I'm going to try to answer your questions and I hope you will point out where I am mistaken.

I believe the image has more weak points than strong.
The only strengths I see lay within the facial expressions of the subjects and the "looking over the shoulder" perspective I tried to gain.

The weak points are:

1. The subjects are separated by too great a distance. That distance causes your eye to jump back and forth across the entire frame, without a clear anchor point. Considering my vantage point, this was the best perspective I could gain. If I moved more to the left it would have closed the gap, but I'd then be shooting the back of the foreground individual, losing his expression.
2. Within the large gap between subjects there are distracting elements – the “tip” bucket swinging in the air, the column and the woman in the background. During editing, I tried to minimize those elements, but at some point it left nothing but a dark gap in the center of the image.

Thoughts?

 

[Ken Tanaka]

Actually, John, I'd say that your critique skills here are quite sharp.

You did not solicit critique and I'll offer none. Frankly critiques, even by accomplished photographers, are not often much more productive than the usual uncritical accolades you'd get on Flickr, particularly for an image that cannot be repeated and whose contextual circumstances are only known by you.

But it -is- important that you develop a sense of what works, and why, in your own photography. That's why I asked for your comments.

I, like every other digital photographer, have gigabytes of almost-a-picture image files. Images that never -quite- came together. Image whose elements were nearly organized...but not quite, due to circumstances in front of, and/or behind, the lens. Like an angler, it's the ones that escaped the hook that sometimes privately haunt us most.

Your self-critique is quite good, John. It helps to have a generous time gap between capture and self-analysis. The wider the gap the sharper the eye.

I was going to refer you to a series of DVDs titled "Contacts" which feature renowned photographers discussing and critiquing their own images on contact sheets. I purchased the whole series several years ago but, in relocating it on Amazon, I see that it's out of production and the secondary market prices are heading to the moon. Still, if can manage to find one or more of these volumes for rent or reasonable purchase I highly recommend jumping on it. Volume 1 is perhaps the keenest to illustrate fascinating self-critique (by some photographers who are long gone). But each volume is a gem.

Nice job, John.

 

[John Angulat]

Ken,
Thanks very much for taking the time to offer your thoughts.
I'm surprised I scored o.k. (I'm not going to say "well") on the "pop quiz"!
And thanks for the DVD recommendation.
True, Amazon has it going for hundreds of dollars (I checked also) and Ebay reflects the same price.
Both sites only offer Vol. 1 - the one you felt was best.
Now for the good news: ICP's on-line store still has Volume 1 in stock and it remains at it's original price - $39.00!
Suffice it to say, I've already placed my order!

 

[Asher Kelman]

I, like every other digital photographer, have gigabytes of almost-a-picture image files. Images that never -quite- came together. Image whose elements were nearly organized...but not quite, due to circumstances in front of, and/or behind, the lens. Like an angler, it's the ones that escaped the hook that sometimes privately haunt us most.

Ken,

In looking further at "Contacts, Vol. 1", I came across this remark by Suat Guler, a self-styled "Photocholic" reviewer, from Izmir, Turkey, about another interesting DVD, one on, Henri Cartier-Bresson, HLB: The Impassioned Eye (DVD)

"In almost every book or assey, [essay] about HCB, it's mentioned that he seizes the moment. But often, it's not mentioned which "moment". After watching the DVD, you realize that it's the moment when drama, geometry and the story comes together."

Unfortunately, for most of our myriads of files, this "moment" has been missed!

Asher

 

[Asher Kelman]

You did not solicit critique and I'll offer none.

Ken!

Kudos to you; once again, I'm so impressed!

Just you staring at us from Chicago and asking John the question about "strength and weaknesses" already was a major jolt that cannot be ignored! But, like the abstract artist, you have facilitated, encouraged, prompted and allowed John and the rest of us to do the work you already have laid out in your own mind. That you provided no detail of your own analysis is significant for your restraint, but in substance no different! Like a story book Mafia "Don", you, sipping a Martini, in Chicago, so to speak, provided the permission and trigger to get a critique going. It's that simple; that's the power you have LOL!

Knowing us and our open minds and education, the consequences of your prompt are pretty well predictable. You merely implying that there are pluses and minuses to be recognized, is sufficient to ensure that the critique will be substantial. So John's look at his own work substantiates this.

Frankly critiques, even by accomplished photographers, are not often much more productive than the usual uncritical accolades you'd get on Flickr, particularly for an image that cannot be repeated and whose contextual circumstances are only known by you.

Ken, yes, this kind of dismissal has a good "ring" to it, but it's not really true. Being able to use online feedback is indeed fraught with danger. Still, there can be invaluable help from exchange of critique. A lot of us have self-doubts, for all our education. Peer discussion, (with the caveat that one also needs a giant salt shaker and one's own intent as the arbiter), does help develop the essential internal mechanisms that follow, so one can assemble the peak moment, perspective, essence, motif and composition in one single shot that uniquely stands out above the rest. As you, yourself point out:

But it -is- important that you develop a sense of what works, and why, in your own photography. That's why I asked for your comments.

I, like every other digital photographer, have gigabytes of almost-a-picture image files. Images that never -quite- came together. Image whose elements were nearly organized...but not quite, due to circumstances in front of, and/or behind, the lens. Like an angler, it's the ones that escaped the hook that sometimes privately haunt us most.

So as usual, your directed prompting does get us to the water and we lap it up!

Thanks!

Asher

 

[John Angulat]

Asher, you are so correct in your observations.
With Ken's simple (but ever so direct) one line original question to me, he accomplished much.
- He prompted me to examine my work. Critically and honestly.
There's a lot I'd like to say regarding the respect I have for Ken's knowledge, however it might be best said as thus:
"When Ken speaks, we listen".
"If Ken chooses to instruct, we learn".
And..."If Ken asks of something of you, a well thought out response is expected".

Thanks again Ken.

 

[Asher Kelman]

The gentlemen questioned the freshness of the clams.
The seller took offense...

Life in New York...from my wanderings​

Revisiting this picture, even with all the disorder, it still works, like a portrait with a pole behind our subjects head, if you wince, you can accept that sometimes we do have poles sticking out of our heads. Here, I don't need to wince at the reality of the lady being split by the wooden support for the stall or the eyes being drawn to the left by the fluorescent light or even the plastic tip basket standing between them.

Of course, yours truly would be the fool to rush in a solve these design problems simply by moving the light, rebuilding the woman or shortening the length of ice or perhaps moving the folk together. I doubt that we'd make it a lot stronger, but it could be done and may even be worthwhile.

Still, as it is, despite all the shortcomings, it just happens works! Each time I see it, there you have captured the moment! The messiness and lack of order, the posturing over the obstacles is, after all, very genuine New York!

Asher

 

[John Angulat]

Unfortunately (or the opposite) all we are left to do is burn, dodge and hope for the best.
Once you begin altering the image, you alter one half of the memory - the recorded half.
Every time I'd look at the altered image it wouldn't match my recollection.
It's a "lemons / lemonade" thing. You have to work with what you've been given.
After all, you wouldn't move two mountains closer together just because they "looked better that way", would you?
It jus' ain't natural!

 

[Winston Mitchell]

Unfortunately (or the opposite) all we are left to do is burn, dodge and hope for the best.
Once you begin altering the image, you alter one half of the memory - the recorded half.
Every time I'd look at the altered image it wouldn't match my recollection.
It's a "lemons / lemonade" thing. You have to work with what you've been given.

I agree. The image works wonderfully as is. Your philosophy is in alignment with the name of the forum you chose to present it.

After all, you wouldn't move two mountains closer together just because they "looked better that way", would you?
It jus' ain't natural!

I might, if it wasn't an instantly recognizable, iconic scene ;-) If I did, I wouldn't post it in a journalism-documentary forum.

 

[Asher Kelman]

I agree. The image works wonderfully as is. Your philosophy is in alignment with the name of the forum you chose to present it.

Hi Winston,

A good point and I myself missed that entirely! Still, that's ethics and separates could from should . Like behaviors, not for this particular room but wonderful in the right place!

Asher

 

[Asher Kelman]

Ken,
Thanks very much for taking the time to offer your thoughts.
I'm surprised I scored o.k. (I'm not going to say "well") on the "pop quiz"!
And thanks for the DVD recommendation.
True, Amazon has it going for hundreds of dollars (I checked also) and Ebay reflects the same price.
Both sites only offer Vol. 1 - the one you felt was best.
Now for the good news: ICP's on-line store still has Volume 1 in stock and it remains at it's original price - $39.00!
Suffice it to say, I've already placed my order!

Well John, did TCM ship the DVD?

I just received a notification of change in order status and the DVD I ordered is now missing! I called them and they said "If it was discontinued, we'd have been told. So it is likely to come in about 3 weeks, LOL! I hope you have better luck!

Asher

 

[John Angulat]

Asher,
I fear the worst!
Your post has left me wondering!
When I placed my order it struck me as strange I never recieved a confirmation.
There's no way to check order status, as I'm not a member.
Too busy to chase this down right now, I'll hope for the best.

 

[fahim mohammed]

John, this is you at your best. Maybe both of them need to hold the ice in their hands and chill out!!

Regards.

 

[John Angulat]

John, this is you at your best. Maybe both of them need to hold the ice in their hands and chill out!!

Regards.

Hi Fahim,
Thanks so much for the generous praise, it is much appreciated.
Yes, I think the ice would have served as a good tool for dis-engagement!

 

[John Angulat]

Well John, did TCM ship the DVD?

I just received a notification of change in order status and the DVD I ordered is now missing! I called them and they said "If it was discontinued, we'd have been told. So it is likely to come in about 3 weeks, LOL! I hope you have better luck!

Asher

Asher,
I fear the worst!
Your post has left me wondering!
When I placed my order it struck me as strange I never recieved a confirmation.
There's no way to check order status, as I'm not a member.
Too busy to chase this down right now, I'll hope for the best.

We've been had! Egads!
And by such a fine institution!
I just emailed ICP's on-line store.
They now claim they have no record of my order, and the item is on "indefinate" backorder.
Oh well, I guess we're going to have to convince Ken to lend us the DVD!

 

[Ken Tanaka]

After seeing your earlier note I visited the ICP online store and, sure enough, they listed the Contacts series as being available. But it sure seemed odd to see the discs selling for $200+ on Amazon when they could be bought for their original price.

I know that some, and maybe all, of the segments are available for FREE on YouTube. Here's the first segment of the William Klein piece.

I see links to many others, such as Nan Goldin's and Martin Parr's. So with some searching you'll probably find most of the segments.

Note: Most of the Contacts segments feature someone reading the photographer's comments rather than the photographer him/herself narrating.

 

[Asher Kelman]

I know that some, and maybe all, of the segments are available for FREE on YouTube. Here's the first segment of the William Klein piece.

Thanks Ken,

I started on the first one and learned that the body of work of a photographer comes to 2 seconds!

Asher

 

[John Angulat]

Ken,
Thanks also.
There much to be seen, even more to be learned.