De-ranted discussion on Street Photography" Post succinctly!!

[Howard Jones]

Photography and the Law

I find "street photography" to be alluring. Photos of people on the street can tell so much about not only the person, but the culture and society. However, the question of legality frequently comes to the fore.

If someone is walking down the street, what does the law say about taking a photo? I've had people say I'm violating their right to privacy. I'm told I need signed releases and permissions. Yet much of this flies in the face of reason and logic. For example, if you photograph a sporting event, you certainly don't need the consent of 50,000 fans photographed in the background. When photographing a news story, you don't need the permission of all present.

What is the law? Where are sources to learn more on the subject? How long will I be in jail for violating the law?

 

[Sandrine Bascouert]

Law depends on countries. I've been said that law in the US is far more "liberal" on these matters than in Europe, for example....

 

[Jerome Marot]

Law depends on countries

Not only that, but there is another problem with your question. What you are asking basically amounts to "what can I do and be safe?". The answer is "nothing".

Anyone can sue you because they think that your photographs infringe on their rights. They may win or lose, but that is irrelevant to the problem: you are still at a risk of considerable time and money expanse.

Another important point is that the problems do not arise when you take pictures but when you publish them. In about any country you can take pictures of anyone you fancy (if only because that is hard to prove without infringing on your rights), but publishing is a different matter.

 

[Jerome Marot]

Los Angeles Sidewalks



Even though I quoted Charlie Chipman, I started a new thread. This thread might be controversial, and I want to allow Charlie to enjoy his thread.

I enjoyed viewing Charlie’s pictures. Some of this picture really caught my attention, especially the picture with Jesus standing beside the two women and the picture on the corner with sign of CARNICERIA. Not sure why I enjoy these particular two photographs most, but I do.

Then I read how Charlie captured his photographs. Suddenly I lost some of my admiration.
(...)

We do not have the pictures in the original thread, but it seems that Charlie Chipman is known by Wired and dpreview as Johnny Tergo.

http://johnnytergo.com/

 

[Asher Kelman]

I will go on record as being everbody's worst case scenarion of personal predjudice / bringing pre-conceived passe ideals to photography as art.

I hate craft without art. I hate art with no craft.

So now we've got machines that can automatically make perfect calculations of impossible pictures to the point we can aim them out a window and fire a remote from the front seat on unsuspecting folk standing on a street corner.

Jim,

In a studio, one can casually set up a camera, know ones lenses and just replace the objects or people to take a series of perfect pictures, just checking focus and taking some spot reading with the light meter. Everything is under perfect control by the stationary nature of the work. It's actually much harder by orders of magnitude to take pictures from a still, let alone a stationary car. I know since I attempt this often! So I admire Charlie's dogged persistance and skill to end up with pretty impressive drawings of the life in L.A. that otherwise would not be documented. I feel his work contributes to our cultural heritage.

This kind of shooting is truly for the advanced photographer. There's little time for studied reflection. Often one has to circle back to try again to frame the shot as desired and often as not, the opportunity has passed. One cannot back up or take a step to the side or crouch low. With all the best technique, the keepers are very low. There's actually a lot of craft in being able to compose a picture from a car, especially if driving. As to the art part of the equation, each has to make its own way and stand up to engage us. either it does or it fails. However, that applies to all photography, no matter the craft.

Asher

 

[Asher Kelman]

It's also not just simple hand holding a camera that's used. Adventurous Johnny Tergo, in "Wired" shows what can be done with a door mounted 1D Mark IV, triggered remotely by a Pocket wizard from his laptop, pictures appearing in his smart phone! Amazingly he has a 10' boom with a strobe behind his pickup truck and the folk get a good dose of photons as he takes the picture. To get their faces, he might use his horn, as if against another driver, but the folk turn to look and get snapped and zapped in a photon cloud!

Johnny Tergis: Untitled

From article in Wired

Johnny Tergis: Untitled

From article in Wired​

Obviously, this may be admired or turn your stomach as invasive. I think it is almost performance art. One is not sampling the folk, as Charlie Chipman does, and for sure Johnny Tergis is "in your face" invasive. Nevertheless, as "Art", it's worth a look and depending on one's gut feelings, you might be open to it. Part of the excitement is that most well-to-do commuters avoid such poorer and neglected neighborhoods as they are simply frightened or else have never explored much beyond the 6 lane Freeways, taking them to and from work.

Asher

 

[Asher Kelman]

and consider at the care and effort and imagination Tergis has applied to get his pictures.

Johnny Tergis: Untitled

From article in Wired

Johnny Tergis: Untitled

From article in Wired​

I hope he goes into shooting mode after full daylight, at dusk, perhaps or best at night. If folk could clearly see all this expensive and to some intrusive gear, he could get robbed or even injured by the locals! We're really putting against one another huge differences is culture, social status, choice, education, opportunity and wealth. I wouldn't be surprised if some locals interpet such photography as work by the feared Immigration and Naturalization services, out to find illegal immigrants or else law enforcement, searching out their lists of wanted criminals or suspects.

Asher

 

[charlie chipman]

We do not have the pictures in the original thread, but it seems that Charlie Chipman is known by Wired and dpreview as Johnny Tergo.

http://johnnytergo.com/

Hello Jerome!

Not sure how the links to my earlier thread were disabled but I've sent some new links to Asher so he can put them back in place or one can visit my website to see some from that series I did.

charliechipman.com

Just to clear things up Johnny Tergo and I are not the same person. It would appear as though he is using a similar approach to street photography as I once did, and Andrew Bush used a similar approach for photographing other drivers in their cars before that.

 

[jake klein]

I've read a bit here and there in this thread.

Honestly, I could give a **** less about the medium that is used to create the art I look at.

The end result is all that matters.


To me at least....

 

[Tom dinning]

I've read a bit here and there in this thread.

Honestly, I could give a **** less about the medium that is used to create the art I look at.

The end result is all that matters.


To me at least....

Go Jake!
Too many moral issues for me to deal with here. Also, too many 'have to' and 'should' words.
Guidelines for the Aussie street photographer:
1 Don't give a ****.
2. Get the picture and run.
3. Only stop shooting when someone points a gun at you.
4. If someone points a gun at you, use a longer lens.
5. Never ask.
6. Everyone is fair game.
7. Dress like an old pensioner on holidays (as I do every day)
8. Ignore abuse.
9. Don't talk to people with high moral values.
10. Never take you wife with you.

 

[Asher Kelman]

3. Only stop shooting when someone points a gun at you.
4. If someone points a gun at you, use a longer lens.

Start with a long lens and where they have guns, have a good wheelman and the engine on!


Asher

 

[Asher Kelman]

Thanks to Charlie Chipman! His original thread, the one that fascinated Kevin immeidatley, is found here and is now repaired. It's worthwhile to look at the people he has caught as he drove by. In many cases, this wouldn't have been possible on foot!

Asher

 

[Jerome Marot]

Hello Jerome!

Not sure how the links to my earlier thread were disabled but I've sent some new links to Asher so he can put them back in place or one can visit my website to see some from that series I did.

charliechipman.com

Just to clear things up Johnny Tergo and I are not the same person. It would appear as though he is using a similar approach to street photography as I once did, and Andrew Bush used a similar approach for photographing other drivers in their cars before that.

The approach is similar indeed:

(Source: Wired / Johnny Tergo)

(Source: Charlie Chipman)
​

I don't really want to re-rant this thread, but we already have had a long discussion about personality rights. Should we know have a similar discussion about plagiarism? Note that you seem to be the first who has published these kind of images here.

 

[Asher Kelman]

The approach is similar indeed:

(Source: Wired / Johnny Tergo)

(Source: Charlie Chipman)
​

I don't really want to re-rant this thread, but we already have had a long discussion about personality rights. Should we know have a similar discussion about plagiarism? Note that you seem to be the first who has published these kind of images here.

I do feel that, if they were copying this motif, then it should have been mentioned as I did when I started my project based on the last picture of John Lennon and Yoko Ono by Annie Leibovitz. Even if I hadn't, the pose is so iconic, (albeit very different in detail), that everyone would have understood the homage. Here, however, the idea by lesser know photographers seems newer and adventurous. So referring to one's inspiration should have been done, if it was known.

Now I have been doing this "drive-by" car photography for years. I do have at least one such picture, I believe in OPF, but I didn't publish it as a series so that the technique would be instantly recognized.

Asher

 

[Jerome Marot]

Now I have been doing this for years. I do have at least one such picture, I believe in OPF, but I didn't publish it as a series so that the technique would be instantly recognized.

You have been shooting from a car rigged with strobes? Because this is what we are talking about.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Never with strobes, Jerome! But the risky, daredevil confrontation factor was always there, especially in areas where the locals carry weapons! Using flash is of course several orders of magnitude more confrontational and so is indeed a new level of involvement. What's very different from my own quiet work is that with strobes, there's enough interference to be considered a harsh and aggressive affront, almost like blocking someone's path on purpose, even if momentarily.

Such street photography, (that interaction between a shocking flash and the faces of the denizens), is a variant of "performance art". Even though the subjects didn't actually sign on, in most cases, it's still very interesting.

Asher

 

[Jerome Marot]

Such street photography, (that interaction between a shocking flash and the faces of the denizens), is a variant of "performance art".

And my argument is that is this "performance art" that has been plagiarised.

I mean: if you decided to wrap a local building in pink plastic, don't you think Christo would object? If the performance is to go through Los Angeles with a car rigged with strobes, who has done it first?

 

[Asher Kelman]

And my argument is that is this "performance art" that has been plagiarised.

I mean: if you decided to wrap a local building in pink plastic, don't you think Christo would object? If the performance is to go through Los Angeles with a car rigged with strobes, who has done it first?

I wonder! There was no answer to Johnny's phone earlier this morning. I'll try later!

Asher

 

[Asher Kelman]

Jerome,

I just received a nice note back from Johnny. He tells me he's been doing this for about 1.5 years.

BTW, we have had our drive-by strobed pictures since January 29th 2011, which is 27 months. Also the pictures seem to have been taken earlier in 2010. So according to this data, it would seem that we published the first such images of drive by strobing in LA! Charlie seems to have done it at for at least 2.5 years, but we can get from him the exact date. Still, I love both the photographers' work!

Asher

 

[Jerome Marot]

Of course, it is possible that the two persons had the same idea independently. If such is the case, then maybe "Wired" would be interested to report on that extraordinary occurrence. Charlie Chipman may be interested in contacting "Wired" or "dpreview" and could use his thread in this forum as public evidence.

 

[charlie chipman]

When I started on my sidewalks series, which was early to mid 2010 if I remember correctly, I had not seen it done before. Even so I had thought that I couldn't be the only one who had rigged a camera and flash up in a car. I have found other examples since, Andrew Bush's series ( http://goo.gl/NZKis ) that he has been doing as far back as the 1980's. I also came across Alastair Thain doing the same thing with a Large Format camera ( http://goo.gl/wLIN5 ). David Bradford did it in New York from his taxi cab ( drivebyshootings.com ) some with flash most with out. Then there is the google maps cars......

Sure, of all the mentioned projects Mr. Tergo's and mine are the most similar, we are in the same city, and we both have a picture of "the jesus" who anyone that frequents Hollywood has likely seen. But I wasn't the first to do something like this nor do I feel I need to contact anyone and tell them so.

My interest for this project has since waned and I have focused my energies on other photographic projects. It is fine be me if someone else continues this style of street photography, not that anyone needs my permission.

 

[Michael Nagel]

Sorry for my strange humor, but this looks to me like Bruce Gilden driving or another definition of 'drive-by shooting' people could actually live with (literally!).

The problem with any kind setup for shooting and general concept for photos linked to it is that it is very difficult to trace back to the first one inventing it. You may be right if the first person published the work at some point, but it could even be some amateur photographer not publishing or someone who thought of it as a stunt and stopped when (s)he did not like what (s)he saw.

It is always nice if you can rightfully credit the person being first, but this is not always sure...

Interesting idea, but the flash does not always enhance...

Best regards,
Michael