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Photoshop is dead, long live the Adobe Creative Cloud

Cem_Usakligil

Well-known member
Various fora, among others the Luminous Landscape and the DPReview have been abuzz with discussions for the past few days upon Adobe's announcement that PS6/CS6 will be the last version ever for which one can buy a license and "own" the software. The way to go forward will be to buy a monthly subscription to the Creative Cloud. It has already been called "ransomware" by many, referring to the fact that one won't be able to open one's own files if one ever decides to stop paying for the subscription. Have you heard about this yet? If so, why aren't we discussing it?

Even Aaron Johnson of What the Duck came out of his hiding and made an appropriate cartoon about it:

WTD1382.gif
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
If so, why aren't we discussing it?

Why should we discuss it? Is it likely to change anything?

Adobe managed to get a quasi monopoly on the professional illustration market (not only photography, talk to printers, illustrators, etc...). It is no surprise that they are trying to use their position to extract a lot more revenue. What is there to discuss? Just stay on CS5/CS6, use gimp, don't get the subscription, it is the only argument Adobe will understand.

Although, in the end Adobe will probably win. You will have to upgrade eventually, either because your computer (that you have to upgrade regularly, just to get security updates) will not work with the old version, because the old CS version will not work with the new camera raw files, because the new version of e.g. Nik filters will not work or because the old CS version will not exchange files with someone you'll need to send files to.
 

Cem_Usakligil

Well-known member
Why should we discuss it? Is it likely to change anything?

Adobe managed to get a quasi monopoly on the professional illustration market (not only photography, talk to printers, illustrators, etc...). It is no surprise that they are trying to use their position to extract a lot more revenue. What is there to discuss? Just stay on CS5/CS6, use gimp, don't get the subscription, it is the only argument Adobe will understand.

Although, in the end Adobe will probably win. You will have to upgrade eventually, either because your computer (that you have to upgrade regularly, just to get security updates) will not work with the old version, because the old CS version will not work with the new camera raw files, because the new version of e.g. Nik filters will not work or because the old CS version will not exchange files with someone you'll need to send files to.
If you think we shouldn't be discussing this, why did you? :)
 
Why should we discuss it? Is it likely to change anything?

Hi Jerome,

Two reasons to discuss it.

One is awareness. When taking decisions, it's always nice to understand the consequences and options (as far as that's humanly possible).

The other is that it might influence Adobe to retreat on some of the negative consequences for photographers and supporting industry (plugin developers, book and training authors, etc.).

Although, in the end Adobe will probably win. You will have to upgrade eventually, either because your computer (that you have to upgrade regularly, just to get security updates) will not work with the old version, because the old CS version will not work with the new camera raw files, because the new version of e.g. Nik filters will not work or because the old CS version will not exchange files with someone you'll need to send files to.

That's like volunteering to be a victim. I prefer to put up a fight if that helps, or to actively seek for alternative solutions. There is a number of good alternatives for part of the requirements, and they may even deliver results with higher technical quality.

Raw processing is covered by alternative options, parts of image processing are covered, and parts of the output options are covered. People might be interested in knowing how to proceed, at a lower cost and with higher quality .... I'd say a discussion about these things is not a bad thing.

Cheers,
Bart
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
Hi Jerome,

Two reasons to discuss it.

One is awareness. When taking decisions, it's always nice to understand the consequences and options (as far as that's humanly possible).

The other is that it might influence Adobe to retreat on some of the negative consequences for photographers and supporting industry (plugin developers, book and training authors, etc.).

My point was that a discussion between 10 persons on what is a relatively minor forum is not even likely to be noticed by Adobe.


That's like volunteering to be a victim. I prefer to put up a fight if that helps, or to actively seek for alternative solutions. There is a number of good alternatives for part of the requirements, and they may even deliver results with higher technical quality.

Raw processing is covered by alternative options, parts of image processing are covered, and parts of the output options are covered. People might be interested in knowing how to proceed, at a lower cost and with higher quality .... I'd say a discussion about these things is not a bad thing.

Cheers,
Bart

So you want to discuss what alternatives are available to avoid the new Adobe's monthly tax? Fine, then I am game. But excuse me if I am a cynic: alternatives to photoshop have been around for the past 20 years and failed to gain momentum. Most commercial alternatives even went bust. Do you realize why?

Because, if you don't realize why and how Adobe managed to put themselves in a position to be perceived as the only choice in this game with a product which was not the best nor the most practical in front of alternatives which were much cheaper, I am afraid that we are not likely to have an interesting discussion.
 

Cem_Usakligil

Well-known member
I think that Bart's comments re. the alternatives were divided into three areas:
1) raw processing: many alternatives such as Dxo or Capture One Pro. Mostly better than the Adobe versions. PS is not really needed.
2) Output (printing) etc: also many alternatives such as QImage. One could live without the PS.
3) Image processing using layers and 16-bits per channel. This is where we don't have many alternatives, yet. GIMP is still in beta for 16-bits processing. We also have Corel Paintshop Pro, Apple Aperture, Xara, Serif Photo Plus, etc.

Certainly, there is enough choice if one wants to get rid of Adobe. Another noticeable development are the companies like Topaz Labs which are offering stand-alone GUIs and layering for their filters.
 

Cem_Usakligil

Well-known member
My point was that a discussion between 10 persons on what is a relatively minor forum is not even likely to be noticed by Adobe.
Absolutely, we are but a fly to the huge elephant which is Adobe. But we can inform our small society of the developments in this area and help them make better choices for themselves. That is the reason why we should be discussing, not for the purpose of halting Adobe. I am pretty certain that it will not be possible, even for the major forums like DPReview.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
I am trying to understand Gimp. My main need is for layers. I am frustrated that new versions of software are needed for faster Macs! It's like putting us on a treadmill. I have calculators and vacuum cleaners, pencils and pens and a car that work decades after purchase!

Who routinely uses a software with layers as intuitive as PS?

Asher
 
I am reposting this (with modifications) from a another thread I had started because I missed it here. The other one can be deleted.

I was wondering how many in here, which tends to have a higher level of professionals are thinking.

I know what percentage are against it on the more hobby oriented forums and it doesn't look good for Adobe.

For me it stinks because of times like right now, when I am in a low income period running on my military retirement and a bit here and there from my photography. Right now I can't afford a subscription. I just killed off or lowered as many of my monthly payments as possible. My two part time businesses work on the buy stuff when I have the money so I can operate for a time with minimal income until it starts coming in again. Both my photography and other business are very cyclical and the subscription model does not work at all well for types like me.

I know from my dad, that wedding photography (something I personally avoid like the plague) was also cyclical with most of the weddings happening in summer. He used to do ski resort photography in the winter to cover that part of the year.

A permanent subscription is not good for a cyclical business model such as mine.

But was wondering what you all think of it?

Thanks,

BTW - I plan to continue to use PS CS6 until I can't anymore for whatever reason (or Adobe changes their mind back before I do) and will be looking for alternatives in the meantime. It is already paid for after all and will probably outlast my Laptop.
 
I am reposting this (with modifications) from a another thread I had started because I missed it here. The other one can be deleted.

I was wondering how many in here, which tends to have a higher level of professionals are thinking.

I know what percentage are against it on the more hobby oriented forums and it doesn't look good for Adobe.

For me it stinks because of times like right now, when I am in a low income period running on my military retirement and a bit here and there from my photography. Right now I can't afford a subscription. I just killed off or lowered as many of my monthly payments as possible. My two part time businesses work on the buy stuff when I have the money so I can operate for a time with minimal income until it starts coming in again. Both my photography and other business are very cyclical and the subscription model does not work at all well for types like me.

Hi Tim,

Indeed the financial aspect of the change in licensing is not helpful for many photographers, even some professionals. It may be different for corporations and educational institutions, but it seems like Adobe values the opinion of photographers less. They seem to suggest photographers to go the Lightroom or Elements route instead.

A problem though is that, as the saying goes, faith comes on foot but leaves on horseback. So who is going to believe that Lightroom is not next on the list to create a permanent tap into the bank account of those users as well. Afterall, it was suggested by Adobe that users needed to hurry and update to a CS6 perpetual licence, because otherwise they would not qualify for an upgrade to CS7, which will never exist ... Adobe has violated the trust of many photographers in being their partner.

There are also potential (backwards) compatibility issues with files created in future versions, for those who stick to CS6. There might even be reduced compatibility of older files in the newer CC versions, although unlikely, I also do no longer trust Adobe anymore to having more than their own interests in mind. That's also a pretty terrifying thought for those who have an extensive DAM built on the basis of Lightroom functionality.

Cheers,
Bart
 

Michael Nagel

Well-known member
The news travelled quite fast - I read the announcement as well and I would have posted it here, but Cem was faster...

I see several things, some have been mentioned already:
  1. Using this model you no longer 'own' a license, you have to rent it. Fact as presented, but worth mentioning it again.
  2. For those who are using PS for a while and plugins exclusive to it have become dependent in a way that any change can be painful and means another learning curve they may not be able to afford when relying on this software to earn a living as it takes time to acheive the same efficiency on any other software just because you are used to it - even if other software might be better. The new licensing scheme is likely to be more costly on the long run.
  3. When you use the same software to organize your archive you are dependent as any transfer to another system is time-consuming and painful - dependence.
  4. The fees are likely to increase. The old model made CS{1..6} reachable for ambitioned amateur photographers, the new license model puts it out of reach for many - these will look for alternatives when the software is no longer usable because it is outdated compared to the gear used (raw converters etc.).
  5. You ultimately depend on hardware/network/software that is out of your reach to have a working system. This is something which would put it out of choice for professional use in my eyes. For the moment there is a connection to the license server foreseen every 30 days latest (with exception for year subscribers where it is up to 180 days), but this may change.

Unfortunately the licensing scheme is not new - I have seen it for CAE software for a long time.

I never used the CSx series, nor Lightroom (even if I was tempted once or twice), just Elements for a while, but this is driving me away from it. As I never used extensively, the move away is simple for me.
Currently I am exploring the possibilites within the Linux world - there is GIMP, but there are others as well.
Others will turn towards other commercial software as mentioned above.

If enough people move away from Adobe they will not fail to notice and it will be interesting to see the reaction.
Microsoft is living another Vista moment and there are changes to be expected for Windows 8, maybe Adobe needs also such a moment as well to see what their customers really want...

Best regards,
Michael
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
The news travelled quite fast - I read the announcement as well and I would have posted it here, but Cem was faster...

I see several things, some have been mentioned already:
  1. Using this model you no longer 'own' a license, you have to rent it. Fact as presented, but worth mentioning it again.
  2. For those who are using PS for a while and plugins exclusive to it have become dependent in a way that any change can be painful and means another learning curve they may not be able to afford when relying on this software to earn a living as it takes time to acheive the same efficiency on any other software just because you are used to it - even if other software might be better. The new licensing scheme is likely to be more costly on the long run.
  3. When you use the same software to organize your archive you are dependent as any transfer to another system is time-consuming and painful - dependence.
  4. The fees are likely to increase. The old model made CS{1..6} reachable for ambitioned amateur photographers, the new license model puts it out of reach for many - these will look for alternatives when the software is no longer usable because it is outdated compared to the gear used (raw converters etc.).
  5. You ultimately depend on hardware/network/software that is out of your reach to have a working system. This is something which would put it out of choice for professional use in my eyes. For the moment there is a connection to the license server foreseen every 30 days latest (with exception for year subscribers where it is up to 180 days), but this may change.

Unfortunately the licensing scheme is not new - I have seen it for CAE software for a long time.

I never used the CSx series, nor Lightroom (even if I was tempted once or twice), just Elements for a while, but this is driving me away from it. As I never used extensively, the move away is simple for me.
Currently I am exploring the possibilites within the Linux world - there is GIMP, but there are others as well.
Others will turn towards other commercial software as mentioned above.

If enough people move away from Adobe they will not fail to notice and it will be interesting to see the reaction.
Microsoft is living another Vista moment and there are changes to be expected for Windows 8, maybe Adobe needs also such a moment as well to see what their customers really want...

Best regards,
Michael

So what are you using for editing, especially with layers.

It may be that I'll keep one Mac just for my latest edition of CS5 or CS6 if I manage to get it.

I have two books on GIMP. I wish there was someone nearby who could run it through with me!

Asher
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Layers?

3) Image processing using layers and 16-bits per channel. This is where we don't have many alternatives, yet. GIMP is still in beta for 16-bits processing. We also have Corel Paintshop Pro, Apple Aperture, Xara, Serif Photo Plus, etc.

Certainly, there is enough choice if one wants to get rid of Adobe. Another noticeable development are the companies like Topaz Labs which are offering stand-alone GUIs and layering for their filters.

So how good are layers in the other software you mention?

Asher
 
My point was that a discussion between 10 persons on what is a relatively minor forum is not even likely to be noticed by Adobe.

Hi Jerome,

Maybe you are correct, but never underestimate the sometimes strange interpretation of statistics, by major corporations. It only requires a single vote to turn a tie into a majority ...

So you want to discuss what alternatives are available to avoid the new Adobe's monthly tax? Fine, then I am game. But excuse me if I am a cynic: alternatives to photoshop have been around for the past 20 years and failed to gain momentum.

As they say in the financial community, with 20/20 hindsight I might add, past performance is not a warranty for future success ...

Most commercial alternatives even went bust. Do you realize why?

Yes, for a variety of reasons. I've been a marketing and later business and financial analyst for most of my professional life, besides being a certified photographer (with the official papers to prove it, as they were required for the execution of that profession).

Because, if you don't realize why and how Adobe managed to put themselves in a position to be perceived as the only choice in this game with a product which was not the best nor the most practical in front of alternatives which were much cheaper, I am afraid that we are not likely to have an interesting discussion.

Rest assured that I have been in close contact with the (pre-)press (amongst others) and computer industry, for decades, but I wouldn't mind exchanging observations, however local to specific national circumstances they may be.

The situation as presented since the beginning of this week however, has changed significantly. Let's not underestimate it (no need for exaggeration either). Even some people in the finance community dare to question the shift in approach, while they usually seem to appreciate short term profit (in the pocket is certainty, the future is not), AKA shareholder satisfaction (puke, if it results in accelerated destruction in the longer term).

Cem is correct in my separation of the technical opportunities (yes there may be a positive spin-off for us, but not for Adobe) with variable impact in 3 components of our workflow:
  • Raw conversion
  • Postprocessing
  • Preparation for output

There are several ('potentially' better) alternatives for the first and last components. Postprocessing is a bit problematic for the more involved procedures, but we'll be getting there (now probably sooner than later). The moment Google leverages their investment in the Nik plugins may become interesting, and don't underestimate the past research activities of Microsoft with the help of brilliant students from China and India (to name a few sources for their low cost, but not low quality, research). I can recommend a source such as CiteSeer to keep tabs on scientific development.

Cheers,
Bart
 
I have to agree that Adobe is driving photographers to lightroom, but if I am down there, so many options are available, that I can use, that lightroom becomes very low on my list. It really doesn't give very much that I can't get elsewhere for less. As I would say Canon's DPP comes free with the camera and does a lot of what I need that lightroom can do (okay probably getting carried away there, I will miss the content aware heal tools of PS)

And I have no faith in Adobe not moving Lightroom to the subscription model later. They will if they aren't willing to listen now.

And the thing is, Adobe won't necessarily notice they are losing their customers for several years, because as long as CS6 works, I am good to go and don't need an upgrade. So they wouldn't see my money anyway for at least a year right now. My past three upgrades were all bought in April, which you note has already past - there is a reason for that.
 
And the thing is, Adobe won't necessarily notice they are losing their customers for several years, because as long as CS6 works, I am good to go and don't need an upgrade.

Hi Tim,

Also don't underestimate the machinations of those responsible for the current change in direction. They have lots of vested interest in hiding flawed decisions (nobody is perfect) until after they moved to a new job opportunity, with 'proven' track record ...

Proceed with caution seems to be appropriate advice in this situation. Nobody can predict the future, so having a contingency plan also seems prudent.

Cheers,
Bart
 

Michael Nagel

Well-known member
So what are you using for editing, especially with layers.

It may be that I'll keep one Mac just for my latest edition of CS5 or CS6 if I manage to get it.

I have two books on GIMP. I wish there was someone nearby who could run it through with me!

Asher
Asher,

keeping a version of CS5 or 6 is a wise decision - you will be able to use it for a while.

I have used layers once or twice, but never in a coherent way as there is little PP in what I do.
I use GIMP for most of my adjustments for 1 1/2 years now, before it was PSE 7.

I do not know if this is of use for you, but here are a few links to tutorials, starting with very simple things and these are all in a walkthrough-style. Sorry if some of these are too simple, but I wanted to start with simple things as I need to start there myself...

First a comparison whitepaper.
Combining images from the original GIMP documentation.
Creating contrast masks.
Various tutorials including a way to set up the same keyboard shortcuts for GIMP as in PS.
A way to fake adjustment layers.
A very basic approach on how using layers with GIMP.

For those who know GIMP better than I do - corrections and additions are welcome.

For users of LR looking for an alternative - darktable is at least worth a look. It installs on various Linux flavors and OS-X. Additional twist: Currently there is an import function for files from LR under development, it is pretty basic as only a few settings are translated, but this can only get better.

Hope this helps a little.

Best regards,
Michael
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
I rarely use Photoshop, but I do have the CS5 version in place.

Most of my photo editing is pretty primitive, and I normally do it in Micrografx Picture Publisher 10, a vintage 2001 app. I am very familiar with its user interface, which has some aspects I consider desirable beyond the fact that I am vary familiar with them. (Other can see no reason I find them desirable, since Photoshop doesn't offer them and those guys are still breathing.)

It has no layer capabilities. Some work in that vein can be conducted by creating objects, whose stacking order can be changed, and which can be separately made susceptible to any kinds of adjustments (curves, etc). But in fact it is not easy to make certain things into objects, and I have had to develop various ploys to let me do that. And in any case it comes far from Photoshop's elaborate layer structure.

Every couple of years, I decide I should begin moving to Photoshop. Various of you (Asher and Bart in most particular) have been very helpful in leading me to understand the layers structure, much of which makes a lot of sense, but some of which is just there! (And of course it all now makes immense sense to those who have learned, by familiarity of use, to master it, the pains of childbirth being ephemeral. It's a little like having a bathroom sink in which the cold faucet is on the left. We tell others that it is perfectly sensible)

But for all kinds of reasons, those "movements" on my part always just dissipated, and I went back to ignoring Photoshop.

When we converted the main systems here to Windows 7, I thought it was all over for Picture Publisher 10, but I was able by supernatural work to give the old cat one more life.

The same was not true for its "vector illustration" counterpart, Micrografx Designer 7. At a colleague's urging, I have there gone to CorelDRAW 6, which is in fact very nice, and much better behaved in many ways. (And it imports extremely well my immense library of illustrations in Micrografx Designer format, a result of Corel having bought the Micrografx products when Micrografx collapsed, although it euthanized them shortly thereafter.)

But of course I miss a number of nice user interface features of the Micrografx applications. (I had by the way been a beta tester on them for a while.) But I have come to realize that such is the nature of "progress".

I don't know what's in the future for me with regard to photo editing. But this latest turn of events at our Adobe hacienda serves to illuminate one important fact: we cannot rely on nesting to get us through all of life.

I should probably switch to some more "modern" editing app (and, at my age, nothing remains "modern" for very long!) Perhaps I will embrace PS CS5, and hope that it will run in Windows 9 when the time comes.

Best regards,

Doug
 

Ben Rubinstein

pro member
As an educator this puts me in an interesting position. Adobe have now said on record 'currently there's not a lot of photography-specific value in our subscription products'. The prices of photoshop have pretty much doubled or worse given a skip one buy one upgrade policy as used by most people. Added to that, when you stop paying you lose any ability to open your files or work with them. This kind of model can and only will work and be viable for companies and preferably those who need the full suite. Those who can't write it off as a business expense, i.e. amatuers, those not self employed and of course my students, are screwed. The moment they make LR also CC, they will lose every photographer who would not trust their image library to Adobe's price whims and server outages. There will be a significant shift from these people using photoshop. I can see two paths in the future. Competition and piracy. Neither make me that excited about keeping current with software that my students are unlikely to be using in the future unless they go to work for a big company.
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Photoshop has come to take a gigantic position among photo editors (perhaps comparable to that of MS Word in word processors).

We have no seen competitive products that, overall, approach its capabilities (I think).

Perhaps this latest turn of events will shift the dynamics of the playing field so that a truly worthwhile competitive product will emerge.

Best regards,

Doug
 
Nobody can predict the future, so having a contingency plan also seems prudent.

And in line with that thought, here is a list of potential image editing contenders:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_raster_graphics_editors

Besides the Topaz Labs photoFXlab application I mentioned elsewhere for those who are looking for layers functionality, combined with very high quality specialized filter plugins, I'm reading some favorable comments on a program called Photoline, which also supports layers and is available for Mac and Win platforms. I have no personal experience with it, but it does seem to have an extensive feature set. Given the positive reactions from users, it might be an interesting option for those who do not want to spend more than a modest amount (currently EUR 59).

Cheers,
Bart
 
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