No Title

[James Lemon]

 

[Tom dinning]

So, what do you want, James?

Nice sharp image with appropriate use of DoF? Great looking chick/bloke? Nice rendition in B&W? Interesting contrasts? Some comments regarding the socio-ethical issues relating to gender identification and stereotyping?

C'mon, James. You must have had something in mind otherwise it just another picture?

 

[Asher Kelman]

Well James,

I do like the line of varying smiles. Reminds me of declination of the latin adjective for "good" [objects/people or matters): "bonus, bona, bonum", male, female and neither!

Is that a puella bona or vir bonus

The figure on the right is particularly hard.

Anything to disclose!

Asher

 

[James Lemon]

So, what do you want, James?

Nice sharp image with appropriate use of DoF? Great looking chick/bloke? Nice rendition in B&W? Interesting contrasts? Some comments regarding the socio-ethical issues relating to gender identification and stereotyping?

C'mon, James. You must have had something in mind otherwise it just another picture?

Thank you for your comment Tom very much appreciated ! Of course their are the technical aspects of an image but does the image provoke any particular thoughts on how you see this image ? I would prefer to leave the joy of discovery up to the viewer as apposed to varnishing it up with my own B.S. just to see if it can stand on it's own and if the viewer see things along the same lines as myself or will their critique reveal something new to me, maybe it could be just another picture. Try to keep inside the frame.

 

[Tom dinning]

Thats the beauty of photography, James. If we treat it as the thing we are limited as to what we can say about it. If it is meant as more than that then we can share that. Its not a guessing game, nor is it a puzzle or a means of verification of your own thoughts and intentions. Placing a photo up for critique isn't only about finding out what the viewer thinks, although that can be interesting in itself - or not. Like the flasher in the park, some people may laugh, scream with rage, or ask what you intend doing with it. I'm one of the latter, since I have one of my own and am not surprised by its appearance.
Your BS is important for me to formulate a better response. If its guessing you want, I think you're mixing with strange company, so I'm more likely to be criticising your leanings than your photograph.
Don't ever assume a photograph can stand on its own. It requires a viewer and with that the viewer will bring with him/her a myriad of thoughts, prejudices, knowledge, cultural ideas and bigotry. So if they can bring theirs, why not bring yours?

 

[James Lemon]

Thats the beauty of photography, James. If we treat it as the thing we are limited as to what we can say about it. If it is meant as more than that then we can share that. Its not a guessing game, nor is it a puzzle or a means of verification of your own thoughts and intentions. Placing a photo up for critique isn't only about finding out what the viewer thinks, although that can be interesting in itself - or not. Like the flasher in the park, some people may laugh, scream with rage, or ask what you intend doing with it. I'm one of the latter, since I have one of my own and am not surprised by its appearance.
Your BS is important for me to formulate a better response. If its guessing you want, I think you're mixing with strange company, so I'm more likely to be criticising your leanings than your photograph.
Don't ever assume a photograph can stand on its own. It requires a viewer and with that the viewer will bring with him/her a myriad of thoughts, prejudices, knowledge, cultural ideas and bigotry. So if they can bring theirs, why not bring yours?

I brought the image.

 

[Tom dinning]

I brought the image.

Then I reserve my judgement.

 

[Asher Kelman]

I brought the image.

James,

What do you mean by that? Are you saying, I brought my image here for you to critique?

Let me address the issue of the adage that, "Art should speak for itself!" Well that may be valid when the artist and the viewer are all speaking the same language. So if one would be expert of the works of August Sander and belonged to a school that had to work in that style, then I could accept that no introduction might be needed. Of course, everyone would have to be totally schooled in the difficulties in working with officials in the Third Reich, troubled conscience of the photographer and his avid devotion to the characters that made up the community around him, from the mayor and the baker to the man delivering coal to a basement. If one was in that school, then any new work would be understood as each of us would know the world and it's idioms.

However, much of my own photography requires an introduction. Some benefit from a paragraph of introduction and knowledge of mythology, religious stories and social habits of lovers and business men. Without an introduction, you might be distracted by my technical prowess or the lighting or the curves of a thigh and miss the meaning of my photographic art.

Even when I'd show a picture of a leaf against the sky, I have so much more to tell you than what you see and its composition.

My own view is that your photography can indeed be appreciated by others on so many levels. One might indeed like the technical qualities of composition and color palette and the like. I feel however that whenever a photographer shares with us the "how, what and why" of a picture and it's result, then we are ahead of the game!

Lastly, a picture speaking for itself can apply in some circumstances, but more likely to just to things like a bowl of fruit, a shot of elephants or a falcon spearing a mouse for lunch. Anything else likely requires text too. Otherwise, one might be publishing your picture in a language with metaphors and references that no one else has a clue about!

Asher

 

[Jerome Marot]

Thank you for your comment Tom very much appreciated ! Of course their are the technical aspects of an image but does the image provoke any particular thoughts on how you see this image ? I would prefer to leave the joy of discovery up to the viewer as apposed to varnishing it up with my own B.S. just to see if it can stand on it's own and if the viewer see things along the same lines as myself or will their critique reveal something new to me, maybe it could be just another picture. Try to keep inside the frame.

It is difficult to give you comments on this image while making abstraction of the subject and the subject is politically sensitive. As Tom immediately noted do you want "Some comments regarding the socio-ethical issues relating to gender identification and stereotyping? ". And there lies the problem: the people in this forum are not selected on their views on the subject of gender identification and stereotyping. So, a priori, some members will agree that a man/woman/intersex can wear drag-like makeup and some members will find that against their views.

In effect, your question amounts to publishing a photograph of people burning a US flag an asking comments when you do not know whether the audience are war veterans or Al-Qaida fundamentalists. You can't make abstraction of the subject, when the picture value is essentially about the subject.

So what can be said while leaving the subject aside? Not much, I am afraid. We have a picture of 4 people, 3 of which face us. Depth of field is used to attract our attention on the front one, so the image creates a progression. That progression goes from right to left, which is not the reading direction in Europe and the US and the image may work better when flipped (I tried that and I suggest you do).
It is not quite clear what is meant by the progression. The front person is obviously different, but the next two are alike, with the third one wearing heavy lipstick. If the second and the third were reversed, it could be a progression about make-up, but we don't have that here.
It could be that the image is not about a progression, but simply about one person and his/her friends. But this is contradicted by the construction of the picture as a progression, so I am a bit confused by the image.

There are distracting elements around the frame, most notably the white surface behind the front person on the right side, the white element in the top right corner and the street sign / handle / handrail (?) on the left side. That last element is particularly distracting since the line of people leads our eye exactly there. Classically, the construction of this kind of images involves a device to bring the eye of the viewer back to the origin point (the face of the front person here). Here, the faint line below the store sign could have served this purpose but the street sign / handle / handrail prevents that.

Back to the subject: what I see are three people and a fourth one who does not appear to belong to the group. I presume it is about the three front people. The front one wears heavy makeup and the next one doesn't, so it could be about gender roles, social acceptance, etc… The scene is obviously in an urban setting. I can imagine the picture being taken in a gay pride walk or something similar. The only message I can imagine is of social acceptance: the second person looks more traditional in her presentation (if he/she is a woman), the third person also appears to wear some kind of makeup (lipstick, dark eyes). It could be that you intended to show that all kind of people can mix together. In that case, I find that the construction of the picture distracts from the message: if the message is one of equality, I don't understand why you attract particular attention to the first person.

Is this what you had in mind? Can you tell us a bit more now?

 

[Jerome Marot]

So if one would be expert of the works of Adam Sandler and belonged to a school that had to work in that style, then I could accept that no introduction might be needed. Of course, everyone would have to be totally schooled in the difficulties in working with officials in the Third Reich, trouble conscience of the photographer and his avid devotion to the characters that made up the community around him, from the mayor and the baker to the coleman delivering cole to a basement.

Which photographer are you talking about?

 

[Paul Abbott]

James, you should have noticed those distracting elements in your photograph...

This surely should be in colour then his makeup would present a better contrast to those other ladies who don't appear to have hardly any 'slap' on? In this respect, the photograph would have more to say and propose a little more thought for the viewer on gender and all that it entails...
Anyway, I would have liked to see more of a context and more of the drag queen. The photograph on the whole looks too tightly framed and the poor drag queen is harshly cropped...

 

[Asher Kelman]

Which photographer are you talking about?

Thanks for spotting the typo, it's August Sander, of course. Sander was a brave and serious photographic documentarian. He photographed workers, professionals, store owners and public officials during the rise of fascism in early mid-20th Century Germany.

Adam Sandler, by contrast, is a distracting and popular American comedian and actor

Asher

 

[James Lemon]

Thank you folks for your well informed intelligent comments! Much appreciated !

So I am challenging you folks to re edit the image give it a title and an introduction of your proposal! The image was made last summer at the Gay Pride Parade in Vancouver BC. Canada.

 

[Tom dinning]

Thank you folks for your well informed intelligent comments! Much appreciated !

So I am challenging you folks to re edit the image give it a title and an introduction of your proposal! The image was made last summer at the Gay Pride Parade in Vancouver BC. Canada.

Really, James.
I'm beginning to think you don't get this photography gig.
Why the **** would we want to claim any part of your image for our own? It's yours. Do as it what you will. Tell us your story. But don't expect us to manhandle it into something else. It has little value to any of us as a Lego set to be dismantled and made into something else.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Really, James.
I'm beginning to think you don't get this photography gig.
Why the **** would we want to claim any part of your image for our own? It's yours. Do as it what you will. Tell us your story. But don't expect us to manhandle it into something else. It has little value to any of us as a Lego set to be dismantled and made into something else.

Tom,

You are really pesty today! Well, what changed?

I requested that the O.P. might allow folk who had great opinions on how his image could be better processed to go ahead and express themselves! It's quite sportsmanlike for him to allow us to experiment with the presentation or even recompose the entire image. After all, there have been suggestions as to how the picture might be understood as it is and how it could have been made differently. I think this is a great challenge.

Asher

 

[Asher Kelman]

James Lemon: Untitled

Original​

James,

I wondered about the folk relating to each other with some sense of admiration.

James Lemon: Untitled

Edited ADK​

Just for fun and to ponder more about this parade and the gulf between folks of different cultural habitat!

Asher

 

[Jerome Marot]

James, you should have noticed those distracting elements in your photograph...

Are you mocking my critique?

 

[Cem_Usakligil]

Are you mocking my critique?

I think not. I think that Paul is pulling James' leg since James commented earlier on a picture of Paul where James found red color and some other things in the frame to be distracting.

 

[Tom dinning]

Tom,

You are really pesty today! Well, what changed?

I requested that the O.P. might allow folk who had great opinions on how his image could be better processed to go ahead and express themselves! It's quite sportsmanlike for him to allow us to experiment with the presentation or even recompose the entire image. After all, there have been suggestions as to how the picture might be understood as it is and how it could have been made differently. I think this is a great challenge.

Asher

Pesky! Indeed! Good!
If you think this is challenging you must lead a very sheltered life, Asher. ****ing around with someone's photo isn't challenging. It's contradictory. It's pointless. It's a futile exercise. It's .... Its...
Oh bugger it. Go ahead. It's your place. This isn't a sport. As someone else in this forum has said, show me your beef. Give us something to motivate us, move us, inspire us. Chunking around with someone else's photo to prove a point that they are better than the photographer is and should be beneath anyone with an ounce of sensibility and consideration for what photography is. What you are doing in 'popular' photography that can be found in any forum. I thought we were beyond that.
Apparently I'm mistaken.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Tom,

You're right challenging me to provide good work! However, here, my offering is not to show something better, but turn things upside down to alter the boundaries. There was extraordinary criticism of the O.P.'s photograph, that I thought that perhaps others might show how they might have worked with this subject. I still think this is a great idea.

I wouldn't suggest it, except here the O.P. is entirely open to new possibilities.

Asher

 

[Tom dinning]

Tom,

You're right challenging me to provide good work! However, here, my offering is not to show something better, but turn things upside down to alter the boundaries. There was extraordinary criticism of the O.P.'s photograph, that I thought that perhaps others might show how they might have worked with this subject. I still think this is a great idea.

I wouldn't suggest it, except here the O.P. is entirely open to new possibilities.

Asher

Not everything is a good idea, Asher. I'm still dumbfounded as to how rearranging someone else's photo is a good idea. I know it can be done and you've done a plausible job of this one but to what end? This isn't even a possibility. It's not even the photographers idea. I can come to grips with a few suggestions about dodging and burning, maybe a contrast change or even a crop here and they but chopping it up like that indicated the photographer might have been able to perform god like miracles.
At the end of the day you can turn it any which way and rebuild the boundaries to look like the Rabbit Fence and you still turn up with a bad idea and an even worse picture.
Then again, I could be barking at the wrong gate.

 

[Paul Abbott]

No Jerome, I am not mocking your critique...why would I do that? Thanks to Cem, he has done the enlightening...

Tom, I love your style and force of wit and criticism mate. Great stuff!

 

[James Lemon]

James,

I wondered about the folk relating to each other with some sense of admiration.

James Lemon: Untitled

Edited ADK​

Just for fun and to ponder more about this parade and the gulf between folks of different cultural habitat!

Asher

I think this composition works from a contemporary perspective but altering a real image in this manner would not only be unacceptable to me but others as well especially when place in a photo journalism, documentary, street photography forum.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Not everything is a good idea, Asher. I'm still dumbfounded as to how rearranging someone else's photo is a good idea. I know it can be done and you've done a plausible job of this one but to what end? This isn't even a possibility. It's not even the photographers idea. I can come to grips with a few suggestions about dodging and burning, maybe a contrast change or even a crop here and they but chopping it up like that indicated the photographer might have been able to perform god like miracles.
At the end of the day you can turn it any which way and rebuild the boundaries to look like the Rabbit Fence and you still turn up with a bad idea and an even worse picture.
Then again, I could be barking at the wrong gate.

One can stage what's in one's mind, or one can refuse to remove papers or garbage from the frame.

If one is going to edit, it's not necessarily to advise or direct the photographer how to do his work, but rather to express whatever idea one wishes. To the extent that the original photographer allows editing, everything is open to the imagination to present new forms of that work with different impact and viewer experience. So this is not a case of advocating what should be done, rather what's possible with the fabric provided.

Asher

 

[James Lemon]

Really, James.
I'm beginning to think you don't get this photography gig.
Why the **** would we want to claim any part of your image for our own? It's yours. Do as it what you will. Tell us your story. But don't expect us to manhandle it into something else. It has little value to any of us as a Lego set to be dismantled and made into something else.

You may be right but the older I get the more I realize how little I really know.

 

[James Lemon]

James, you should have noticed those distracting elements in your photograph...

This surely should be in colour then his makeup would present a better contrast to those other ladies who don't appear to have hardly any 'slap' on? In this respect, the photograph would have more to say and propose a little more thought for the viewer on gender and all that it entails...
Anyway, I would have liked to see more of a context and more of the drag queen. The photograph on the whole looks too tightly framed and the poor drag queen is harshly cropped...

Why don't you try converting it to colour ?

 

[Jerome Marot]

I won't convert it to color or rearrange things around, because it is work and I don't think it would produce anything useful. Besides, James, you still have not told us what you expected from us.

 

[James Lemon]

I won't convert it to color or rearrange things around, because it is work and I don't think it would produce anything useful. Besides, James, you still have not told us what you expected from us.

I really don't know what to say to you folks especially when the image is posted under the heading " critique desired' I was under the impression that would be self explanatory.

to express your opinion about the good and bad parts of (something) : to give a critique of (something)

 

[Jerome Marot]

Then, I have already answered with a detailed critique.

 

[James Lemon]

Then, I have already answered with a detailed critique.

Yes you have provided an excellent evaluation of the image! Thank you for your insight into this image.