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This strikes me...

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Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Gary,

Another cheap shot.

Carla refers to that as the "so's your old man" school of political discourse.

It goes back to an event in DC a few years ago when a hurriedly-dispatched bunch of Ollie North's operatives were trying to counter a protest by some women from the DC League of Woman Voters (on the sidewalk outside a book store where North was signing copies of his book). She said the Northies' clumsy responses to the rather esoteric jibes of the protesters were "in the vein of 'so's your old man' ".

Doug
 

Gary Ayala

New member
Very cool, Gary. I think there are surprises in store on election day, and that all the polls run by mainstream media are bullshit. They're all pushing the drama of the close race, whether it is or not.


Actually, polls are very scientific and exacting. Polls can also reflect the desires of the client and can easily be skewered towards a clients expectation(s) or goal(s) ... should that be what the client wishes.

Presently, it is a horse race, per a majority of the polls. But one has to really examine the the context of the poll and all the associated info to determine any potential for skewering ... even then one needs to have the expertise to identify potentially said biasness and then run test for significance.

Many polls, especially those of the candidates will use a universe of people which are "most likely/inclined to vote". Many of the Obama voters are young and first time voters with no voting track record ... hence they will not be polled or be factored into many of the polls.

Gary
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Gary,

I appreciate your picture of the Obama acceptance speech and your reminder of his choice to work as a community organizer. This must be qualified by his path to public office. So if one rewinds the movie, we must ask about original intent. I don't mean to downgrade his choice but factually, we do not know whether or not it was simple a tactical move to reach his long term goal or else just a (close to) selfless act like those who joined the Peace Corps.

Doug,

My mind is open. Your warning about checking the hose at the gas pump is timely and to the point. We can put in the wrong fuel or waste money on the wrong grade either by too high a cost or by too low a grade. These criteria apply to both candidates. I really appreciate your metaphor as it's simple, easily understood and has a span of questions we need to ask ourselves each time we pull the lever!

Most of all, I appreciate the courtesy of the discussion and the attempts to challenge the common assumptions presented by the campaigns and press.

Asher
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Asher,

Most of all, I appreciate the courtesy of the discussion and the attempts to challenge the common assumptions presented by the campaigns and press./QUOTE]

I've been very impressed by the civility of it all. I think we are very fortunate to have an arena in which we can conduct salon this way. Much of that is due to your thoughtful leadership as the "host", and yet you can still be as outrageous as any of the other participants (to say the least). It's hard to do that.

I'm still trying to find out what ball team Barack Osama plays for. He has - as Michelle Obama said the other day about another guy - a "funny name".

Best regards,

Doug
 

Gary Ayala

New member
Hey Asher-

At the end of McCain's acceptance speech, McCain listed a number of things one can do for their country, with the exception of military service, Obama has done them all as a community organizer.

Regarding your reference to Obama's intent ... does it matter? Would you not recommend or seek assistance from a doctor that went into the profession becuase of money ... even though he was an excellant physician?

You know Asher when I was in Sixth Grade, my cousin and Uncle intoduced me to photography. That summer was spent with my cousin walking around my town with a 35mm Mamiya Sekor shooting and developing B&W film. I was hooked and soon I bought my own 35mm camera ... all with the intent of becoming a photo journalist. Through high school and college I work hard at photography and I became a photo journalist ... I'm I any lesser a photo journalist because I was inspired at an early age? Is a naturally gifted photographer's images any less compelling than the images from a photog which had to work much harder to get an equally exceptional image as the gifted?

Obama came up poor, after law school, ( I suspect 99.9% of those graduating from law school go out and seek their fame and fortune), Obama sought out service to his country. Obama is clearly self made ... McCain had his path blazed for him by his Admiral Grandfather and Admiral Father.

Gary
 

Gary Ayala

New member
Just to add some photography to the thread-

Although Ted is too left wing for my tastes ... I am glad he made it to the convention ... and I hope Ted lives long enough to see a universal health plan adopted for this country.

28693903_RQifF-M.jpg


Gary
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Gary,

I guess easily that this was B&W film and you had a long lens. This is the quintessential Ted Kennedy at his peak, advocate for social fairness and access. You have captured his commanding presence and he's either making a great point or accepting a question from a reporter. This shows his vigor and aura of leadership. It wasn't all that way for Ted's is a special path of the fallen man who is redeemed by his good deeds. Thanks for the special picture. When did you take it? It's so archetypical of him in debate! What a special family! The father had a liquor fortune and was really one of the worse examples of whom you'd want to look to for a father figure. However, his wife was organized, thoughtful and cared for the family. She had the vision to build into the kid’s character. So there was the duality of power versus public good that formed the fabric of the Kennedy clan. At the time of the fateful events of Chapaquick, Mary Jo Kopechne for whatever reason was in his car that went off the bridge. This was 39 years ago, well before a lot of readers parents even met! So for that reason only, here's a brief report of what seems to have transpired.

On July 18, 1969, Kopechne attended a party on Chappaquiddick Island, off the coast of Martha's Vineyard, Massachusetts, held in honor of the "Boiler Room Girls." This affectionate name was given to the six young women who had been vital to the late Robert Kennedy's presidential campaign and who had subsequently closed up his files and campaign office after his assassination.
Besides Kopechne, the other women, all single, were Susan Tannenbaum, Maryellen Lyons, Ann Lyons, Rosemary (Cricket) Keough, and Esther Newberg. The men in attendance, all married but present without their wives, were Ted Kennedy, Joe Gargan, U.S. Attorney Paul Markham, Charles Tretter, Raymond La Rosa, and John Crimmins. The festivity was held at Lawrence Cottage, rented for the occasion by Gargan, Kennedy's cousin and lawyer. The 12 attendees gathered at the cottage after two Kennedy boats raced in the Edgartown Regatta earlier in the day.
Kopechne left the party at 11:15 p.m. with Kennedy after he allegedly offered to drive her to catch the last ferry back to the Katama Shores Motor Inn in Edgartown where she was staying. (According to Kennedy, they left the party at 11:15 p.m. to catch the last ferry of the night -- at midnight.) Kennedy stated, on his way to the ferry crossing back to Edgartown, that he accidentally turned right onto Dike Road - a dirt road - instead of bearing sharply left on Main Street (Chappaquiddick Rd), which was a paved road. After proceeding one-half mile, he descended a hill and came upon a narrow bridge set obliquely to the unlit road. Kennedy drove the 1967 Oldsmobile Delmont 88 belonging to him, off the side of Dyke Bridge, and the car overturned into Poucha Pond, a fairly narrow tidal body of water. A Reader's Digest investigation estimated that the car was traveling at about 35 miles per hour when it left the bridge.
Kennedy extricated himself from the submerged car but Kopechne died. Kennedy said that he made several diving attempts to free her and, after exhausting himself, rested for fifteen minutes. He then walked some fifteen minutes, past several houses, back to the Lawrence Cottage where the party had been held. When Kennedy arrived back at the cottage, he saw the white Valiant his group had rented parked near the front door. The Senator testified that as he came up to the back of the vehicle, he saw Ray LaRosa. Kennedy made no mention of the accident to LaRosa, however, and instead told him to go get Joe Gargan, Senator Kennedy's cousin and lawyer, and another friend, former U.S. Attorney Paul Markham. Kennedy explained the situation, and although there was a working phone at the cottage, the trio allegedly drove to the scene of the accident to attempt a rescue. The group claimed that the tidal current was too strong and prevented them from reaching Kopechne.
Source.

With that, we would have thought, so was his career. However, in some way, redemption was possible. Ted became a stalwart supporter of the rights of the blue-collar workingman and took up causes of universal healthcare as if he was defending his very existence. Who would have though from that odd start, and cheating at Harvard, would come such a fine statesman. Without left and right men of conscience, how would we look at alternatives? They don't each have the answers, but the debate is necessary. As such, I salute the guy. It demonstrates that whatever there is in store for us after death, at least on this earth, we have the possibility of redeeming our character and impact on society.

Here's a man who could have immersed himself in only the life of luxury and personal pleasure, such is his wealth and privilege. Instead he has inherited his mother's conscience, the fear of damnation or a realization that being worthy is of overriding value that he's fought for those who cannot.

Your picture comes at a good time for a reminder. No one is perfect, we all screw up, but one still has the possibility of reaching to do better. Of all the photographs of this Kennedy that I remember, this one will stick in my mind as representing his best!

Asher
 
A bit of a digression, but can anyone tell me who's filling Obama's war chest? Apart from a well-known and wealthy talk show host, that is. When the Clinton's were running out of dollars, Obama seemed to be printing money. What fabulously rich interest groups want him to be President and what do they hope to gain from it?

Thanks in anticipation
Mike
 

Rhys Sage

pro member
There's only one problem with universal healthcare - everybody gets treated but at the same horribly low level. MRSA anybody?
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
There's only one problem with universal healthcare - everybody gets treated but at the same horribly low level. MRSA anybody?
Hi Rhys,

I don't want to fall in a trap and divert a discussion of candidates to the value of a universal health care system. We can do it elsewhere, if you wish, at a later time. Just for now consider this and we can pick this up again later on in a new thread. We don't want to have too many such threads going on at the same time in place of photography.

At present, great doctors who have high standards may have two kinds of patients: HMO (patients in some packaged organized health plan with a group of local doctors) or Medicare or else private insurance. HMO patients and Medicare patients have to be gotten out of hospital under the way things operate now, or else people lose money, or at least the profit is decreased. So in order to justify themselves morally, the other patients tend to get the same sort of harsher decision-making. There is a slow drift away from the kindest and most careful care. Doctors are transformed into authoritarian functionaries where cost is just as important as need. The patient may not be told of what goes into the decision making process. Often they think it's a "Health Plan" that rejects a recommended test, when it's actually a group including even their own doctors.

Some doctors today, feeling under economic pressure, or through wishes to be richer, may try to increase their income by blocks of time on CT or MRI scanners or shares in the centers. The number of tests keeps going up. Medicare responds by cutting reimbursements. Well the doctors fight back by ordering more scans! There are not competing price structures, rather a complex system more like overlapping territorial spheres of influence of Afghani warlords. We have never had, not we will have a free market system in medicine. There are just overlapping systems of fiefdoms with cozy referral relationships. In fact, often, when someone is told that this is "the best doctor", it could just mean that this doctor I owe patients too or play tennis with.

A universal healthcare system would have challenges for sure. But there is nothing about it that is inherently evil, as some would propose. I do not know the answers here but I do know that the current system is not as good as what we pay for.

Asher
 
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Nill Toulme

New member
Politics is 100% about cheap and misleading shots.

No, it's really not. The Republicans (just about all of them, judging from their convention), and some Democrats (but not nearly all of them and, starry-eyed idealist that I am, I like to think maybe even not most of them) want you to think it is. They want you to be cynical about it. "They're all alike" say the Naders and Barrs and Ron Pauls... vote for me if you want real change.

But they're not all alike. Do you honestly believe that America — our America — would have torture and secret prisons and Abu Ghraib and Gitmo on its record if Gore had been elected by the Supreme Court eight years ago instead of Bush? Do you think we'd still be trying to fix $4/gal gasoline with drilling offshore and in ANWR? Do you think we'd have massive deficit spending, mortgaging our children's futures to the Chinese, for the sake of tax cuts that benefited only the richest 5% (or less) of our citizens? Do you think that Osama bin Laden would still be laughing at us from a well-equipped cavern in Pakistan while we squander our resources and the lives and limbs of our military personnel in the wrong country? (Setting aside the equally interesting question of whether 9/11 would have ever occurred if Gore had been in the White House — would he and his cabinet have ignored the warning signs like Bush and Rice and Rumsfeld did? Who knows?)

The damage done to our country and the world resulting from the presidential (s)election eight years ago is incalculable. Politics is real, and it's important. Life and death important.

Nill
 

Rhys Sage

pro member
I come from Britain. We have the National Health Service. It used to be fairly reasonable but then cost cutting took over. In an effort to gain unattainable efficiencies, central control was relinquished and it was split up into NHS trusts with multiple tiers of management. Cleaning, catering etc was all contracted out and the quality of food and cleaning plummeted as people working for an hourly wage took over rather than people working toward the greater good that felt part of the whole. Standards of hygeine have plummeted and MRSA has become a liklihood rather than accidental.

Opticians opted out of the NHS 10 years ago as payments were reduced. Dentists have largely abandoned the NHS meaning that now more emergency cases, dentures and extractions are required since normal treatment has all but ended. Instead of being paid for each job, dentists are paid a flat rate per patient. I know of no dentist that would do a crown for the same price they'd charge for an examination! Hence quality of care has plummeted.

Small local hospitals have closed and waiting lists for treatment have extended. Near an election, funds are provided and operations are performed quickly. My dad had to wait 9 months to get an NHS operation to cure his hernia. My aunt had to wait 3 years for her hip-replacement operation. Often they have waiting lists to get onto waiting lists when the government fusses about waiting times but provides no money to reduce them.

Socialised medicine is a nightmare waiting to happen to you!
 

Nill Toulme

New member
OTOH it seems to be very successful in Canada and some of the other EU countries. Maybe it's just British management? ;-)

Look at what has happened to the cost — and to some extent the quality — of care here given that it now managed not with patient care but with profit as the paramount goal, and not by health providers, or even by disinterested government bureaucrats, but by insurance companies and other large corporations whose only concern is the bottom line.

I'm a product of socialized medicine myself. I was born in an Army hospital and grew up in three countries with my only health care coming from Army (i.e., government) doctors. I miss it, and wish I had it for my family now.

Nill
 
Socialised medicine is a nightmare waiting to happen to you!

I don't know the details of what you describe but I suspect it is not socialised medicine, rather the consequences of the maiming of socialised medicine, presumably initiated by Maggie Thatcher for a "free market" ideological agenda. It's often a lot easier to destroy something than to build something up.

Five or so years ago, I suddenly developed what turned out to be a torn retina. I obtained an instant appointment with my optometrist, which led to an instant apointment with a specialist at Canberra Hospital, which in turn led to a booking for an operation at Sydney Eye Hospital. We drove down the next day and I had an operation the following morning which I understand was conducted by Australia's leading eye surgeon. I made a full recovery (an outcome which was not guaranteed in advance).

Socialised medicine was a triumph that did happen to me. All of this was under Public Health Care which clearly can work well providing it receives adequate funds. I would think as well that the basic principal that all people should receive good health care regardless of their income level or social status is hard to argue against.

Regards,
Murray
 

Nill Toulme

New member
... I would think as well that the basic principal that all people should receive good health care regardless of their income level or social status is hard to argue against.
In a civilized country perhaps. Over here we're much more concerned with our right to own and use assault weapons. ;-)

Nill
 
Politics is 100% about cheap and misleading shots.

Politics is 100% about presenting, discussing and enacting Policies. That's just what the word means.

Those who seek to derail the collective process of agreeing on policies by relying "100% on cheap and misleading shots" do so because they are afraid they have no policies to contribute or because they are afraid that noone would agree with their policies.

Regards,
Murray
 

Gary Ayala

New member
A bit of a digression, but can anyone tell me who's filling Obama's war chest? Apart from a well-known and wealthy talk show host, that is. When the Clinton's were running out of dollars, Obama seemed to be printing money. What fabulously rich interest groups want him to be President and what do they hope to gain from it?

Thanks in anticipation
Mike

The bulk of Obama's money was initially funded via the internet, in $25 type increments ... a lot of people shelled out a few bucks.

After Clinton conceded, she gave Obama her fat cat donation list and post DNC ... again a ton of people are contributing in small increments again and again ... $25 here .... a few weeks later another $25, et cetera.

Gary
 

Jack_Flesher

New member
Do you honestly believe that America — our America — would have torture and secret prisons and Abu Ghraib and Gitmo on its record if Gore had been elected by the Supreme Court eight years ago instead of Bush? Do you think we'd still be trying to fix $4/gal gasoline with drilling offshore and in ANWR? Do you think we'd have massive deficit spending, mortgaging our children's futures to the Chinese, for the sake of tax cuts that benefited only the richest 5% (or less) of our citizens? Do you think that Osama bin Laden would still be laughing at us from a well-equipped cavern in Pakistan while we squander our resources and the lives and limbs of our military personnel in the wrong country? (Setting aside the equally interesting question of whether 9/11 would have ever occurred if Gore had been in the White House — would he and his cabinet have ignored the warning signs like Bush and Rice and Rumsfeld did? Who knows?)

Yes, no and we'd have even higher gas prices and not doing anything about it, yes and even more so, yes and even more so, and yes.

Get real --- politicians never change politics, they just make different promises they never keep...
 

Nill Toulme

New member
Do you really believe that Jack? I'm surprised.

But to the extent you're correct — if we reward them for that behavior by voting them back into office, then we're getting exactly what we deserve, aren't we.

Nill
 

Jack_Flesher

New member
Yes I do believe it. I'm old enough to have enough experience to be cynical, cynical to the point I now consider myself politically agnostic.

Oh, and the true definition of the word politician is "liar." So no matter who you vote for, you get a cheating, lying, scumbag. In my case I vote cynically too; I pick the person I think is less likely to cheat me or steal from me...
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
I just wanted to congratulate the group on their avoidance of politically polar "code words". (Well, maybe somebody said "socialized medicine" - I can't remember for sure.)

For example, even though we obviously have some participating here of a "strong right" political orientation, nobody has yet said "like-minded". (Have you noticed that people of a liberal bearing never seem to say that? It's even true in the Episcopal Church.)

Note that this is entirely different from, "Hi, honey - I really like your mind", which can be said by Senators from either side of the aisle.

Best regards,

Doug
 

Rhys Sage

pro member
Yes, no and we'd have even higher gas prices and not doing anything about it, yes and even more so, yes and even more so, and yes.

Get real --- politicians never change politics, they just make different promises they never keep...

If voting ever changed anything, they'd ban it!
 

Gary Ayala

New member
Yes I do believe it. I'm old enough to have enough experience to be cynical, cynical to the point I now consider myself politically agnostic.

Oh, and the true definition of the word politician is "liar." So no matter who you vote for, you get a cheating, lying, scumbag. In my case I vote cynically too; I pick the person I think is less likely to cheat me or steal from me...


You know Jack, my father was an elected official and help some type of office continuously for some 40+ years. I personally resent foolish generalization as I and most others in his district, do not consider him a cheater, liar or a scumbag.

Unless I have factual specifics, I refrain from stating negative generalization as such statements are less than constructive.

Gary

Here's a former President which you can attack with some specific negative remarks:
28693856_shqPx-L.jpg
 
So no matter who you vote for, you get a cheating, lying, scumbag.

So you think FDR was a cheating lying scumbag?

I think that's more of a self-fulfilling prophesy than an analytical comment. As a New Zealander coming from a different political tradition, I have observed during my many years living in Australia the very common expression of cynicism and apathy. It can have the consequence that even when the electorate realises that the elected leader of the country frequently lies and has in effect won an election by fraud, many people say "...but that's what politicians are like! ..." and implictly accept those actions.

In a more principled electorate such "leaders" would never survive. And where the electorate becomes cynical, they can often be the victims of their own cynicism - they become stuck with the politicians they most despise simply because they refuse to appraise them and therefore do not vote against them. Even then, morally corrupt practices usually cannot survive forever. From time to time it gets to the point where descredited old policies and people get swept away and there is an opportunity to solve problems rather than create them.

This election cycle has to be such a time for the US because the consequences of continuing without change are too terrible to contemplate. So the question is not how best to spin the coin, it is what are the most fundamental problems and what are the best approaches to solve them? And a supplementary one: What institutions need reform and in what way so as to improve social equity and the democracy of everyday life?

Regards,
Murray
 

Nill Toulme

New member
...I think that's more of a self-fulfilling prophesy than an analytical comment. As a New Zealander coming from a different political tradition, I have observed during my many years living in Australia the very common expression of cynicism and apathy. It can have the consequence that even when the electorate realises that the elected leader of the country frequently lies and has in effect won an election by fraud, many people say "...but that's what politicians are like! ..." and implictly accept those actions.
...
Exactly. Nice question whether to date this downslide in the US from Johnson, who lied to us about the war, or from Nixon, who lied to us about everything.

Nixonland: The Rise of a President and the Fracturing of America

Nill
 
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