Going boldy where I have never gone before (re. a drastic change to my lens lineup)

[Cem_Usakligil]

Hi,

Just to let any interested folks know that I have joined the ranks of lucky photographers who shoot with the new Canon TS-E 24mm F/3.5 L II lens which has been critically acclaimed by the Canon community globally (for extended info about this lens, see this thread). This decision took a long time in the making but I was eventually able to take this leap of faith thanks to the huge support given by Bart who already owns this lens. The other OPFers who also shoot with this lens (the ones I know about) are Michael Fontana and quite recently Asher as well.

I have also ordered the needed panorama components from Really Right Stuff so that I can utilize the lens to the max and shoot nodal point pivoted panos (edit: nodal point is not the pivoting point but the entrance pupil or the so called no-parallax point). This will mean a huge boost for my landscapes and urban pictures. I am really excited!

So why do I say that this is a leap of faith for me? Well simply because I have been shooting during the last 30 years predominantly with zoom lenses. But in order to afford the TS-E lens I had to sell my 70-200L IS f2.8 and the 17-40L f4 lenses and now I only have 3 prime lenses in my lineup: TS-E 24mm, 50mm f1.4 and 100mm f2.8 macro. My worries in the past weeks have concentrated mainly around the question whether I would survive this transition. How will it affect my photography? What will I miss, what will I gain? Mind you, some 30% of all the pictures I have shot in the past 2 years has been shot @17mm and around 25% @200mm. Not to mention that I also shoot a lot on the streets (urban life) without deploying a tripod (obviously). Now that I miss both of these focal lengths and I don't have a flexible, lightweight, autofocus zoom lens such as the 17-40 to shoot on the streets (the TS-E is a manual focus lens, it weighs almost twice as much and shoots @24mm so I miss some needed 7mm); it can theoretically mean a huge blow to my photography. I am sure that it won't go in that direction (otherwise I wouldn't make this move) but one never knows in advance.

Anyway, from now on it is predominantly "slow" shooting for me and zooming with my feet. I will use the shift possibilities quite often to stitch 2-3 shifted frames and thereby almost doubling the picture width (when shooting in portrait mode). Also, vertical shift will play a big role in shooting cityscapes and landscapes; to keep verticals vertical and to include as much possible foreground without having to tilt the camera. Using tilting to create sharp landscapes front to back at wide apertures such as f8-f11 instead of the dreaded f16-f22 range and the associated problems with it. Tilting the lens provides for a creative change of the focal plane and the possibilities are endless. I am hoping that this all will fire up my creativity and give my photography a needed boost to move on to the next level. If all goes well, that is! ;-)

Please feel free to join the discussion and ask any questions you might have about T/S lenses, about how to cope with certain issues and as to why I have ended up making certain choices as briefly described above.

To be continued, also with pictures eventually....

Cheers,

Cem

 

[Maris Rusis]

Tilt-and-shift is wonderful. You'll love it.

I started with and continue to use view cameras where every lens is effectively a tilt-and-shift. Over the last few decades I cannot recall a single view camera exposure where some tilt and/or shift was not used. It is a very satisfying feeling to have expressive control of image geometry and have the power to tilt the plane of focus. The Scheimpflug condition enables you to put focus from anywhere to anywhere, at any aperture or shutter speed, on any film. People whose experience is limited to fixed form cameras don't know what they are missing!

 

[Asher Kelman]

Hi,

Just to let any interested folks know that I have joined the ranks of lucky photographers who shoot with the new Canon TS-E 24mm F/3.5 L II lens which has been critically acclaimed by the Canon community globally (for extended info about this lens, see this thread). This decision took a long time in the making but I was eventually able to take this leap of faith thanks to the huge support given by Bart who already owns this lens. The other OPFers who also shoot with this lens (the ones I know about) are Michael Fontana and quite recently Asher as well.

Congratulations Cem on taking this expensive and daring step. This lens is not to be taken lightly. In the wrong hands it 's clumsy, clutzy, has too many knobs to set out of alignment and it's costly! However, if one understands what one can get from a controlled plane of focus, this is a marvelously engineered lens, likely to be recognized as amongst the best Tilt-Shift lenses ever made for a 35 mm camera.

As with Cem, Bart Ven Der Wolf, here has been responsible for my interest in this lens as well as the work by Michael Fontana. I am using the lens to take pictures of an entire orchestra when I cannot get back far enough. I know that with the 24 mm IS lens, one needs to avoid the last ten 5 percent of the lateral edges as there is anamorphic distortion. The double bases and hte players get rather fat, LOL! I'm not sure about that occurring or not with the 24mm TSE II.

I've also used mine to do night panoramas of a cityscape for a fundraising gala and the effect was breath taking. (I did not accurately set the nodal point and I had parallax issues so there's the free lesson! I still got great a great picture stitched from 20 or so frames, but now will be much more fastidious about getting the nodal point nailed on the ground and during the daytime before I venture on the roof of a 14 story building again! I can't emphasize enough how not doing things right gets one into trouble fixing things in post. If I always did perfect set ups I'd save so much time!)

Asher

 

[Ruben Alfu]

Congratulations Cem, I'm happy for you! For sure this challenging shift to all primes is gonna bring you new stamina and creativity, look forward to see the results!

 

[Kathy Rappaport]

Nice!

Cem -

That lens is wonderful. I can't wait to see your work with it!

A big trend in portraits is to use the 45-TSE which is on my wishlist and a lot of wedding photographers are using the 24 for some creative scenery

 

[Cem_Usakligil]

Tilt-and-shift is wonderful. You'll love it.

I started with and continue to use view cameras where every lens is effectively a tilt-and-shift. Over the last few decades I cannot recall a single view camera exposure where some tilt and/or shift was not used. It is a very satisfying feeling to have expressive control of image geometry and have the power to tilt the plane of focus. The Scheimpflug condition enables you to put focus from anywhere to anywhere, at any aperture or shutter speed, on any film. People whose experience is limited to fixed form cameras don't know what they are missing!

Hi Maris,

Thanks for this very encouraging reaction, it motivates me even more. I have been reading about the Scheimpflug principle and the intersection of the focal plane and the sensor plane and how tilting the lens creates and defines this intersection point. It is a wonderful topic and the more I understand it, the more I realize that the possibilities are almost endless indeed.

Cheers,

 

[Cem_Usakligil]

Congratulations Cem on taking this expensive and daring step. This lens is not to be taken lightly. In the wrong hands it 's clumsy, clutzy, has too many knobs to set out of alignment and it's costly! However, if one understands what one can get from a controlled plane of focus, this is a marvelously engineered lens, likely to be recognized as amongst the best Tilt-Shift lenses ever made for a 35 mm camera.

Hi Asher,

Right you are! Of course one can still use it in the field by adjusting the settings and looking at the results on live view and getting to the end result eventually. But an understanding of the basic principles behind this phenomenon makes things much easier and provides a better starting point for one's settings and therefore less experimentation in the field will be needed. Eventually, it will become second nature of course.

Cheers,

 

[Cem_Usakligil]

Congratulations Cem, I'm happy for you! For sure this challenging shift to all primes is gonna bring you new stamina and creativity, look forward to see the results!

Thanks Ruben, I am itching to go out and shoot with the lens for the first time coming weekend. I'll post some results if they are pleasing enough ;-).

Cheers,

 

[Cem_Usakligil]

Cem -

That lens is wonderful. I can't wait to see your work with it!

A big trend in portraits is to use the 45-TSE which is on my wishlist and a lot of wedding photographers are using the 24 for some creative scenery

Yes Kathy, thanks for your enthusiasm and never ceasing support. I hope you'll eventually get one for yourself too.

PS: you must have seen which lenses I had to sell to buy the TS-E. Pity, really!

Cheers,

 

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Thanks Ruben, I am itching to go out and shoot with the lens for the first time coming weekend. I'll post some results if they are pleasing enough ;-).

Hi Cem,

I'm sure you'll do fine, altough it takes some time to having it become second nature to use the added control one has over subject matter. One also needs to develop a sense for the limitations as well. Ultimately, and with you it won't take long, I'm sure you'll like the creative possibilities that replace the convenience of a zoom lens.

At first one is tempted to use extreme settings, in a quest to explore the possibilities (which are fun), but that will settle down to deliberate and sometimes subtle adjustments to influence 'the atmosphere' that a shot radiates to its viewers.

Cem and I both have a similar approach to shooting our subjects, we previsualize our shot, then we take-out the camera, then we use the technicalities to enable us to capture something close to what we pre-visualized, e.g. in terms of perspective and crop and DOF and exposure. The technicalities are only there to achieve the shot. However, there are now a few less restrictions on the technical side, so new visions can in effect be realized instead of skipped beforehand.

BTW, just for the record, I didn't talk Cem into getting the lens. It was his personal choice born from a desire to allow his creativity to reach another level. I know from our talks on the phone how much courage it took to take the bold (but not lighthearted) step to restrict oneself to a fixed focal length, especially one that's a bit longer than used for the majority of his more recent work.

It's going to be an interesting creative rollercoaster ride, with highs and lows. May the highs prevail!

Cheers,
Bart

 

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

I have also ordered the needed panorama components from Really Right Stuff so that I can utilize the lens to the max and shoot nodal point pivoted panos. This will mean a huge boost for my landscapes and urban pictures. I am really excited!

And justifiably so! Such quality gear is not only a joy to work with (and even look at), it also reduces the potential issues in achieving successful stitches, as it speeds up postprocessing (which leaves more time to do some more shooting).

Just a small correction, before Doug beats me to it ;-), technically it's the entrance pupil (or no-parallax point) and not the nodal point that's used as pivot point.

Cheers,
Bart

 

[Cem_Usakligil]

A...
Just a small correction, before Doug beats me to it ;-), technically it's the entrance pupil (or no-parallax point) and not the nodal point that's used as pivot point.

Absolutely true and I am fully aware of this. I have used the term nodal point since the RRS uses the terms nodal point, nodal shift, nodal etc. throughout their site. I did not want to confuse any casual readers in case they would take a look at the RRS site as a result of this thread. But ultimately, I agree with you and it was a bad choice of terminology indeed.

Cheers,

 

[Cem_Usakligil]

...BTW, just for the record, I didn't talk Cem into getting the lens. It was his personal choice born from a desire to allow his creativity to reach another level.

Oh no! It was indeed my choice and not due any nudging from anybody. Although I would have taken any nudging coming from you very seriously. .

Cheers,

 

[Mike Shimwell]

Hi Cem,

I'm sure you'll do fine, altough it takes some time to having it become second nature to use the added control one has over subject matter. One also needs to develop a sense for the limitations as well. Ultimately, and with you it won't take long, I'm sure you'll like the creative possibilities that replace the convenience of a zoom lens.

At first one is tempted to use extreme settings, in a quest to explore the possibilities (which are fun), but that will settle down to deliberate and sometimes subtle adjustments to influence 'the atmosphere' that a shot radiates to its viewers.

Cem and I both have a similar approach to shooting our subjects, we previsualize our shot, then we take-out the camera, then we use the technicalities to enable us to capture something close to what we pre-visualized, e.g. in terms of perspective and crop and DOF and exposure. The technicalities are only there to achieve the shot. However, there are now a few less restrictions on the technical side, so new visions can in effect be realized instead of skipped beforehand.

BTW, just for the record, I didn't talk Cem into getting the lens. It was his personal choice born from a desire to allow his creativity to reach another level. I know from our talks on the phone how much courage it took to take the bold (but not lighthearted) step to restrict oneself to a fixed focal length, especially one that's a bit longer than used for the majority of his more recent work.

It's going to be an interesting creative rollercoaster ride, with highs and lows. May the highs prevail!

Cheers,
Bart

Cem

I can only echo Bart's comments - may the highs prevail.

Bart's comment about the limitations of not having a zoom remind me of the old (and gold?) one lens project. Restricting equipment can sometimes help develop your creative vision - and of course, when you really run into a technical boundary you are perhaps better prepared to work around it or know what else you need.

Mike

 

[Cem_Usakligil]

Cem

I can only echo Bart's comments - may the highs prevail.

Bart's comment about the limitations of not having a zoom remind me of the old (and gold?) one lens project. Restricting equipment can sometimes help develop your creative vision - and of course, when you really run into a technical boundary you are perhaps better prepared to work around it or know what else you need.

Mike

Thanks Mike, you are rather right about the limitations vs creativity and I too hope that the highs shall prevail in the end .

Cheers,

 

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

I know that with the 24 mm IS lens, one needs to avoid the last ten 5 percent of the lateral edges as there is anamorphic distortion. The double bases and hte players get rather fat, LOL! I'm not sure about that occurring or not with the 24mm TSE II.

The TS-E 24mm is no different than any other wide angle lens, in that respect. Anamorphic distortion is only caused by viewing the projection plane from the 'wrong' position.
Besides, the most extreme edges of the image circle have lower quality, so one might want to steer clear of that if possible anyway.

The only way to reduce its effect on human viewers, when one needs the field of view, is by using a different projection for the final image (if we cannot view the image from the 'correct' position due to practical constraints). Instead of rectilinear (which is the only projection that keeps straight lines straight at any angle) one can try e.g. cylindrical, or one of the more complicated models that compress more towards the edges (thus introducing other, maybe more palatable, deformations). But that's more of a subject for another thread, about less bold choices, since we can make those choices when postprocessing.

Cheers,
Bart

 

[fahim mohammed]

Cem, may you see the world in a new light! I am sure it will be good.

I, somehow, never felt that it was the lenses that did it for you; neither it will be now. It will help.

I am a prime guy myself. A 70-200mm f/2.8 I only see in my dreams and I get up in a sweat!

Best wishes and good fortune.

 

[Kathy Rappaport]

24 and a 50

Cem -

Since you have the 50 - it will cover most anything you want to shoot. You will just have to remember to stand either closer or further way than you might have to do with the 17-40 and you have the wonderful DOf of 1.4. If there was one focal length that I could shoot with and nothing else - that would be it. I love the freedom and restriction at the same time of using Primes. I need zooms for paid event work but I can easily shoot with a prime happily.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Today, I realized that 35mm may be another important focal length! I have to try to see is I can use my 24mm for group portraits! If not I will get a 35mm. I tried the Zeis EF 2.0 and it's a fascinating experience with the possibility of having focus confirmed. The draw of the lens is very gradual as one turns the manual focus ring. I have to review my pics in comparison to the 35 1.4 by Canon which of course is AF. I'll post that in a new thread shortly.

Cem, do you want this to be a general thread on new lenses or do you want to stick to the 24mm T/S? I'm really looking forward to your new pictures, even before the Really Right Stuff Gear arrives! Use it as a street lens, perhaps!

Asher

 

[Cem_Usakligil]

...Cem, do you want this to be a general thread on new lenses or do you want to stick to the 24mm T/S?

Hi Asher,

TS-E is pivotal to this story but also the fact that I am changing my lens line-up drastically and the reasons behind that change are important. So turning this into a general thread on "new lenses"is acceptable to me as long as it is within the context of one's changing their own setup and the reasons behind that (always interesting to know). Let's not make it a generic discussion about new lenses please.

Cheers,

 

[Cem_Usakligil]

Hi Fahim,

..I, somehow, never felt that it was the lenses that did it for you; neither it will be now. It will help.

This is kind kindest compliment one can receive, thank you!

Hi Kathy,

...Since you have the 50 - it will cover most anything you want to shoot. You will just have to remember to stand either closer or further way than you might have to do with the 17-40 and you have the wonderful DOf of 1.4. If there was one focal length that I could shoot with and nothing else - that would be it. I love the freedom and restriction at the same time of using Primes. I need zooms for paid event work but I can easily shoot with a prime happily.

You are quite right, without the 50 f1.4 already in my lineup I would be a bit more hesitant to make this switch.

Cheers,

 

[Asher Kelman]

Hi Asher,

TS-E is pivotal to this story but also the fact that I am changing my lens line-up drastically and the reasons behind that change are important. So turning this into a general thread on "new lenses"is acceptable to me as long as it is within the context of one's changing their own setup and the reasons behind that (always interesting to know). Let's not make it a generic discussion about new lenses please.

Cheers,

Thanks, Cem,

I have the 24mm for architecture of the Colburn School exterior and music and rental spaces as well as for entire orchestra shots. Sometimes, there's simply no room to retreat to get everything in the width of a 50 mm. I'm wondering whether there might be anamorphic distortion at the lateral extremes. Bart, for sure would know if this was just an accident of design of the regulalr AG 24mm lens or if it applies to our new presents, the 24MM TSE II. I was finding that with the 28-105 IS L lens, there was substantial CA at the wide ends. now, I'm really trying to do less work in post and so that's justifies the 24mm TSE. As of yet, I've not use the Tilt or the shift. I do want to use it for street photography and be able to take pictures without anyone having a clue where I'm really pointing. I just wonder whether or not, that lateral part of the lens will be nice to human beings.

Asher

 

[Cem_Usakligil]

Hi Asher,

...I have the 24mm for architecture of the Colburn School exterior and music and rental spaces as well as for entire orchestra shots. Sometimes, there's simply no room to retreat to get everything in the width of a 50 mm. I'm wondering whether there might be anamorphic distortion at the lateral extremes. Bart, for sure would know if this was just an accident of design of the regulalr AG 24mm lens or if it applies to our new presents, the 24MM TSE II. ..

I think Bart has already answered this question when he wrote:

The TS-E 24mm is no different than any other wide angle lens, in that respect. Anamorphic distortion is only caused by viewing the projection plane from the 'wrong' position. Besides, the most extreme edges of the image circle have lower quality, so one might want to steer clear of that if possible anyway.

The only way to reduce its effect on human viewers, when one needs the field of view, is by using a different projection for the final image (if we cannot view the image from the 'correct' position due to practical constraints). Instead of rectilinear (which is the only projection that keeps straight lines straight at any angle) one can try e.g. cylindrical, or one of the more complicated models that compress more towards the edges (thus introducing other, maybe more palatable, deformations). But that's more of a subject for another thread, about less bold choices, since we can make those choices when postprocessing.

Regarding this next point:

.......As of yet, I've not use the Tilt or the shift. I do want to use it for street photography and be able to take pictures without anyone having a clue where I'm really pointing. I just wonder whether or not, that lateral part of the lens will be nice to human beings.

The perspective of the picture is dictated by where you point your camera at (i.e. the sensor plane). Changes to the lens plane (i.e. tilting) won't change that perspective, just the resulting focal plane will change. By shifting, you will be moving the larger image circle around so that you can indeed point the camera just a little bit to the right/left of a person and shift and have that person at the center of your image. They may then not notice that they are the subject of your photography. But it is a question of ethics/shooting style whether you'd find this an acceptable practice or not (let's not go there as it will become off topic). And again, the lateral part of the lens is equally nice to humans as in any other 24mm lens, do not have any high hopes about it if you want a matter of changing the projection method automagically in the lens, lol.

Cheers,

 

[Cem_Usakligil]

Troubles with the TS-E

Hi again,

This morning I have run some test with my new TS-E 24mm to make sure that it was a good unit. Well, I am glad I did as it soon turned out that the lens had some serious problems. Straight lines (vertical or horizontal) exhibited some strange wave patterns (i.e. not just a barrel or pincushion but S patterns). Bart has kindly run the Imatest Distortion tests and verified that the problems were real and serious. Especially, the mechanical decentering was quite extreme and image distortions were rather asymmetrical. And finally, the focus in the image corners was not good either. Well, whatever the cause of these problems was, the only option I had was to exchange it with another example. Luckily, the shop where I bought it is quite good in customer service (which is why I buy there) and they had no issues in immediately replacing it. So when I came back home, we have re-run the tests and I was hugely relieved when we could conclude that this new unit was functioning exactly as it should (i.e. no waves in straight lines and no centering or focusing issues any more). I am extremely glad that this story has had a happy ending, considering the quite substantial price of these lenses.


Cheers,

 

[Asher Kelman]

Hi again,

This morning I have run some test with my new TS-E 24mm to make sure that it was a good unit. Well, I am glad I did as it soon turned out that the lens had some serious problems. Straight lines (vertical or horizontal) exhibited some strange wave patterns (i.e. not just a barrel or pincushion but S patterns). Bart has kindly run the Imatest Distortion tests and verified that the problems were real and serious. Especially, the mechanical decentering was quite extreme and image distortions were rather asymmetrical. And finally, the focus in the image corners was not good either. Well, whatever the cause of these problems was, the only option I had was to exchange it with another example.

Cem,

That's good news and bad news, LOL! I cringe to hear that such a special professional and elite lens is out of whack N.I.B!

It's also commendable and so fortunate that you tested it and wonderful that Bart can help out with Imatest. I'll have to do that. Did you take a test chart picture. If so which one? Or maybe you gave him the lens? I'd like to text my new 24 mm TSE too! You got me a tad worried.

Asher

 

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Did you take a test chart picture. If so which one?

Hi Asher,

Print the following file to something like an A3+ (329 x 483mm) matte paper, keep the surface clean and mount it flat (or put it on a floor with weigths on the edges). Resolution is not critical, so it can be plain paper. Glossy paper is not recommended because it can give problems with reflections when taking an image of it.

Then shoot a reasonably squared image of it (don't shoot at an angle, but straight on), while trying to fill the frame. Don't worry if you crop an edge or two, because what you want is as many '+' intersections of lines in the image as possible. Bump the exposure 1 or 2 EV up to avoid getting a mid-gray image, we need contrast.

The resulting image can be a JPEG. That will normally be accepted by Imatest, but you can also do a visual inspection. Cem's earlier lens showed wavy lines quite clearly.

A fair warning up front, when looking for trouble, one will find trouble. No lens is perfect, and even the test procedure accuracy will have an influence on the result. It would be better to have access to a large wall with a grid pattern with the correct line widths, but we also need to stay practical, hence the compromise on an A3+ size. The point of the exercise is to find an acceptable performance, and that's a gray area with room for interpretation. Also, most distortion is relatively easy to correct (Cem's first copy was an exception), so it's not the sole determining factor.

Cheers,
Bart

 

[Asher Kelman]

Thanks Bart!

 

[Michael Fontana]

Welcome to the club, Cem!

I'm sure you will enjoy it, and it will open for you some new possibilties.

As far as QC, when I bought my copy last year, the Canon reps told me that they had gotten some bad copies from Japan as well.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Michael, Bart and Cem,

What glass focus screens are you using in your viewfinder for manual focus or are you using the live view? Do you choose one from Canon, the Ec-B, or perhaps a split screen from Brightscreen? I need all the help I can get!

Asher

 

[Michael Fontana]

Hi Asher

I' ve got the horizontal splitscreen (from Canon) on the 1 Ds-2, Im not sure if your 5 D needs a different one...

works perfect with my manual focusing Zeiss, - out of the ole 4/5' days, I' m used to define the DOF mentally, in the viewer's image.

With the TSE-24, I focus alwith in unshiftet position, after having confirmed by Bart on his 1 Ds-2, that this is the better way with that lens. It has some curvature of field!

If I want a shallow DOF - therefore a high precision in focusing is required - I add a loup at the viewer - the 1 Ds-2 hasn't lieve view yet.

Last easter friday I had a shooting - about 8 GBs of RAW and all focus was dead on, with my manual focusing primes and the TSE 24 with its semi-auitomatic focusing.