Abbey of Middelburg

[Asher Kelman]

This one is developed from a single raw capture entirely in LR5 using exposure/contrast/highlight/shadows/whites/blacks/clarity/saturation sliders. No other processing has been applied, no brushes, no filters, no noise reduction, no sharpening; nothing. The end result speaks for itself. I hope you will enjoy it. Please feel free to C&C.

Here is the version processed in Topaz Clarity. Looking more like it.

Cem,

Most of what I was looking for is here. Bravo! Yes, Topaz is a smart filter and well deserved here. But there's also some bare truth to the first picture you made. I do not want to say goodbye to that sense of truth.

When I achieve a stunning improvement like this, I put the picture aside for a while. Then I'd try to decrease the fraction of this sparkling layer to the minimum needed to mature the picture from the more earthy original. I might use a mask to selectively use more of the effect in some elements than others, so ranking visually what I thought is important in reading the picture the way I think it should speak to us.

So, for my part, this is the most personal and creative stage of presenting the picture, the rationing of the processes we use to elevate some parts over others. In this particular case, I'd consider pulling back on the ceiling as it's too open, make the end only barely obvious and bring back the original texture on the right hand wall. That way, the window light dominates to make the picture representative of god's light entering the Abbey generously but not disclosing everything equally. The church also has mystery and that has to be preserved.

Asher

 

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, Cem,

Thanks everybody for your comments.

I have processed this image on my calibrated monitor and posted late last night. The details at the back were visible but just, that was my artistic intention. This morning I have looked at the image on my tablet and smart phone and the both don't show any details in the darks, the blacks are plugged. So here is another version with some more light in the background and a bit less contrast, hopefully this will show better on mobile devices.

Nicely done, and probably better in some respects.

I have then processed another version as suggested by Asher, with more lights in the windows and also in the background.

I think you have kneaded the dough too long.

And finally, I have pushed dark to the extreme just to demonstrate that there really is usable detail in the dark.

We have tools today through which we can wreck anything.

Although if the intent here is to allow the detectives to see if the missing valise was in fact at the back of the abbey, that will do it.

Best regards,

Doug

 

[Jerome Marot]

Thanks Jerome for the clarification. It seems you like the sensitivity curves of film better to give the contrast and expression of the scene.

I was not necessarily talking about my personal tastes. But the way film renders shadows and highlights is undoubtedly very much back in fashion, partly because of software imitations like Instagram, for example.

 

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

I think everyone is on the right course but riding different horses. The blown out highlights will always sit badly with me, especially since they are easy to control either by bracketing or in a LR/CS6 adjustment layer.

Hi Chris,

I'm amazed that 41 isolated pixels in the brightly sunshine lit outside and window sill area can be considered as blown out highlights ... There are a few isolated ones on the floor as well, but I didn't care to count them.

In fact, for a profile conversion back to sRGB, this borders on technical genius skill in processing of an existing light image. It's only too easy to produce dull images where there are no real specular highlights at all (unlike reality) and the whole limited tonescale of 255 values is compromised by some religious believe that there can be not a single pixel where all three channels are 255. Except for those few clipped specular highlight pixels, all of the other 'hot' ones still have color in them. Brilliant!

True mastery is shown when a few specular highlights are allowed to clip, thus creating more maneuvering space in the tonescale for the more important parts of the image.

Anyway, tastes do differ, and that's fine, I just wanted to let my assessment be known because Cem's image deserves it. Besides, it was not even intended as anything more than a reminder of usefulness of a good DR capture ...

Cheers,
Bart

 

[Cem_Usakligil]

...I think you have kneaded the dough too long.

True. That is what happens when we edit pictures by democracy.

...We have tools today through which we can wreck anything..

Sure. As it is the case since we have discovered how to use clubs.

...Although if the intent here is to allow the detectives to see if the missing valise was in fact at the back of the abbey, that will do it.

Where is Hercules Poirot when you need him?

Thanks Doug!

 

[Cem_Usakligil]

....My post was just intended as a warning to Cem. I got a camera with one of these wonderful Sony sensors 4 years ago and discovered that I could indeed do single capture HDR before anybody talked about it. Generally speaking, it is not a good idea.

Thanks Jerome. I don't think I need the kind warning although it is an important one and should be paid attention to. As I mentioned in my previous answer to you, the danger is there for those who don't have the precision tools nor know how to use them in order to make tone mapping a transparent exercise. I think 99% of my pictures I have posted here in the past 3-4 years have been tone mapped one way or another.

 

[Cem_Usakligil]

Hi Chris,

I think everyone is on the right course but riding different horses. Jerome is the closest to my initial thoughts on the making of this image and I see Cem's own edits having a better impact than the original posting.

The blown out highlights will always sit badly with me, especially since they are easy to control either by bracketing or in a LR/CS6 adjustment layer.

In the end though, it is how we each see a vision and as that, each of us will interpret it differently - every single time.

My take was to get enough detail at the end of the hall to leave the mystery but not have it go black. As well, to give a better differentiation on the panes of stained glass and to give a bit more pop to the color within the hallway perhaps accentuating the shadow patterns.

Thanks for your input on this and the reworked image. You are right that we are now looking at different preferences and tastes of everyone. In that sense, there are no absolute rights or wrongs.

 

[Cem_Usakligil]

Hi Bart,

....Anyway, tastes do differ, and that's fine, I just wanted to let my assessment be known because Cem's image deserves it. Besides, it was not even intended as anything more than a reminder of usefulness of a good DR capture ...

Precisely the reason why I have posted this. And also because I haven't posted pictures for a while and this seemed to be a good excuse to break the cycle.

 

[Chris Calohan II]

Well, in my defense, Bart, I just read your response incorrectly..no biggie. What I think is to be gained from these dialogues is to see how we each respond to an image. I was sitting all smug for about 40 seconds when I realized I'd gone completely the wrong way...and Doug concurred what I was only thinking. It is quite easy to overthink a process and in doing so, send it to the slaughterhouse.

For my own edification and now I get close to hijacking Cem's thread, which is not at all my intent, I had to start myself from his original post image and avoid the overthinking/overprocessing I'd given it the first time around. Apologies, Cem if this is too much a disturbance to your thread, and if so, I'll remove immediately.

 

[Cem_Usakligil]

Well, in my defense, Bart, I just read your response incorrectly..no biggie. What I think is to be gained from these dialogues is to see how we each respond to an image. I was sitting all smug for about 40 seconds when I realized I'd gone completely the wrong way...and Doug concurred what I was only thinking. It is quite easy to overthink a process and in doing so, send it to the slaughterhouse.

For my own edification and now I get close to hijacking Cem's thread, which is not at all my intent, I had to start myself from his original post image and avoid the overthinking/overprocessing I'd given it the first time around. Apologies, Cem if this is too much a disturbance to your thread, and if so, I'll remove immediately.

No worries Chris! This is not hijacking, it is on topic and I appreciate to read your thoughts and to see your work. Thanks.

 

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Well, in my defense, Bart, I just read your response incorrectly..no biggie. What I think is to be gained from these dialogues is to see how we each respond to an image.

Hi Chris,

No problem. That's the sometimes even more interesting aspect of these discussions. People see things in different ways (pre-conditioned by prior experience), have their personal preferences (thank goodness for a bit of variation that comes from that), and we all are at different levels of the learning curve (which seems to never end).

Cheers,
Bart

 

[Maggie Terlecki]

Cem. I really liked the very first one you submitted but again, I also like the first redo, where the door at the end is perceptible but not overly so. I find the ones that have too much detail in the dark areas, lose the magic and mystery and are less dramatic to me.

To me the story is more important to me than a documentation of everything that was actually there. In the story version, I'm curious and wonder what's down that hall and want to wander further in to discover; in the one with everything revealed, I find it all at once and perhaps am satisfied too quickly.

 

[Cem_Usakligil]

...Cem,

Most of what I was looking for is here. Bravo! Yes, Topaz is a smart filter and well deserved here. But there's also some bare truth to the first picture you made. I do not want to say goodbye to that sense of truth.

When I achieve a stunning improvement like this, I put the picture aside for a while. Then I'd try to decrease the fraction of this sparkling layer to the minimum needed to mature the picture from the more earthy original. I might use a mask to selectively use more of the effect in some elements than others, so ranking visually what I thought is important in reading the picture the way I think it should speak to us.

So, for my part, this is the most personal and creative stage of presenting the picture, the rationing of the processes we use to elevate some parts over others. In this particular case, I'd consider pulling back on the ceiling as it's too open, make the end only barely obvious and bring back the original texture on the right hand wall. That way, the window light dominates to make the picture representative of god's light entering the Abbey generously but not disclosing everything equally. The church also has mystery and that has to be preserved.

Asher

Hi Asher,

Sorry for the belated answer, I have been out for the whole afternoon/evening.
I totally agree with you, no worries. The reason I have been so lenient on discussing and re-working this image is because it is not yet at a finished stage. I did not even think the image significant enough, just used it as an example of the DR of the camera. But I really appreciate your input and it means a lot to me. Thanks for that.

 

[Cem_Usakligil]

Cem. I really liked the very first one you submitted but again, I also like the first redo, where the door at the end is perceptible but not overly so. I find the ones that have too much detail in the dark areas, lose the magic and mystery and are less dramatic to me.

To me the story is more important to me than a documentation of everything that was actually there. In the story version, I'm curious and wonder what's down that hall and want to wander further in to discover; in the one with everything revealed, I find it all at once and perhaps am satisfied too quickly.

I understand you Maggie, thanks a lot for your comments. I appreciate it.