Advice needed on MF body and lens to rent

[nicolas claris]

Thanks Dan

at first glance this looks promising too… will dig also that solutions during the week-end...
(including trying to find if I can afford it!)

Do others have any opinions about this combo?

Klaus? Michael? Bart? Leonardo? Asher? others?

 

[Klaus Esser]

Thanks Dan

at first glance this looks promising too… will dig also that solutions during the week-end...
(including trying to find if I can afford it!)


Do you mean that the Pentax 35 will be a 17 on FF 1DSII or we can get 17 mm while stitching?
Do others have any opinions about this combo?

Klaus? Michael? Bart? Leonardo? Asher? others?

Hi Nic!

For stitching inside rooms i found a 20mm or a 35mm ideal. Best is one which doesn´t produce CAs, you´ll have to correct in the RAW-converter.
As i mentioned before: i use manual Nikon lenses, shoot RAWs and put them straight into Photomatix, make a tonemapping or a simple compressing and put the outcomes into APP.
That´s all done in comfortably short time.
You also can bypass Photomatix by putting the RAW-Files straight into APP and make a tonemapping in it´s editor . . i prefer the other way, but that´s more a matter of personal preferences.

best, Klaus

 

[nicolas claris]

http://en.wiki.autopano.net/Latest_Beta

bst, Klaus

Vielen Dank! Klaus

 

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Do others have any opinions about this combo?

I have no personal experience with the Zoerk adapters, so I can't really comment on those. However, you do not really need the shift capability for your particular use. The tilt capability can come in handy, but is not mandatory.

The better the lens is, the smoother the postprocessing will be. The TS-E 45mm is a bit disappointing with respect to the Chromatic aberration, it'll add an additional post processing step to remove that first, especially important if you want to do HDR bracketing. Other than that, it is a sharp solidly built lens which does allow tilt (focus plane) when you need it.

Keeping your requirements in mind, high quality detail (woodgrain, silk, carpets, chrome), you basically need a lens that is capable of giving you that. Obviously you'll want good bokeh (in the unlikely case you are going to use it), and the lens should be flare free for high light-contrast (windows, chrome/gold/silver, room lights) when you use natural light. Tilt capability is just a bonus.

You need a lens in the 50mm range (relatively good correction of residual lens aberrations for a reasonable price, 50mm f/1.8 is dirt cheap, the f/1.4 has better flare resistance). That focal length allows to capture excellent resolution (esp. after some downsampling), while keeping the number of shots needed for the angle of view to an acceptable volume and thus it opens bracketing as a viable HDR option.

Of paramount importance is your camera+lens mounting platform for 3D rotation around a single 'entry-pupil' spot in space. When it is difficult to reliably setup/use, you'll get frustrated with stitching pretty soon because it is too much work making the exposures and also because of the resulting postprocessing issues.

Bart

 

[nicolas claris]

Bonsoir Bart
thanks for your new input.

I have just shot a serie of tests at home (comparable volume of a standard salon in an average sized motor yacht)
Series are made with 1Ds2 with lenses: 50 and 24 plus a shoot at 12.

Processing the stiched ones with autopano, but with a Powerbook G4, it's damned long!

Of course I'll post the results.

I have read a l ot since this afternoon to understand the Zork adapter with the Pentax 35FA combo and came to the same conclusion as what you've posted.

The level of camera when shooting is high enough in the room so I don't need the shift capability… but what a tool for Architecture!

I too don't like the idea of the amount of work with stitching but I think this is the right answer to my question.

At first glance, I noticed that, when shooting the tests, the 50mm doesn't provide enough height, hence the test @24mm maybe 35 mm would be enough, we'll see when panos will be processed…

Thanks again to all

 

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

I have read a l ot since this afternoon to understand the Zork adapter with the Pentax 35FA combo and came to the same conclusion as what you've posted.

The level of camera when shooting is high enough in the room so I don't need the shift capability… but what a tool for Architecture!

Yep, but e.g. product photography can also benefit from the shift. It allows to make products look larger than life, by using a lower shooting position, but with a different projection 'distortion'.

I too don't like the idea of the amount of work with stitching but I think this is the right answer to my question.

If anything, its a whole lot cheaper than a medium format solution (which is nice if you have a huge volume of paying assignments). A good workflow and quality lenses and camera platform setup will reduce the postprocessing issues and thus save time/money. It then also becomes easier for automatic stitchers to get a good solution without human intervention.

At first glance, I noticed that, when shooting the tests, the 50mm doesn't provide enough height, hence the test @24mm maybe 35 mm would be enough, we'll see when panos will be processed…

You could try shooting in portrait orientation, but even then you probably need to add another row of tiles. As long as there are a few items with a perfectly vertical/horizontal orientation in some of the images, there is no need to shoot perfectly level (the stitching software will adjust when stitching). You can shoot one row below horizontal, and one above horizontal, with some overlap. However, that requires setting the Nodal/entry pupil point for 3D camera movement if you want to avoid foreground parallax issues.

The amount of image overlap needed depends on the situation. For (HDR) blending, or when there are moving objects, it can be advantageous to use up to 50% overlap, for less demanding subjects 10-30% can be sufficient. Smaller overlaps are generally sufficient with perfect entry-pupil settings.

Bart

 

[nicolas claris]

There we are, after a trial shoot inhouse, hours of learning autopano (still a lot to understand! the options hereafter are 12_24 FF landscape orientation or stiched portrait 35mm (24-70 set at 35 for the trial).
The test with the 50 mm as shown that it would need a second row.
One row is for now a lot of work, I'm not sure I'll undertake the 2 rows route. Or even the stitched route, really to much time to spend…

So, 12-24 @ 12 ƒ11 a few seconds post process (sharpness, lightness and vignette):

And now the 35 mm @ ƒ11 stitched hell of time for stitching… of course the big plus is resolution (even if for tests I shot small JPG only):

Comments welcome!

 

[Klaus Esser]

Hi Nic!

Well done! Try 3 rows with 35mm and it´s very wide-angled. Next step would be HDR . .

best, Klaus

 

[Ray West]

Hi Nicolas,

wide angle lens makes unnatural distortions in interiors - in many cases 'flat bottles'. If you are stitching, try 50mm lens, portrait, see if you think it is better. You will obviously need more shots per same width, but I think it will be a far better result. I guess the cheap 50mm 1.8 could be fine. I think, if you have plenty of overlap, the stitching will be much faster. I have not used the software you mentioned, but when I played around, I overlapped the images by about a third.

Best wishes,

Ray

 

[nicolas claris]

Hi Ray
I agree with you, but either my English is too bad, or you did not read me completely.
I made a test (not posted) with a 50mm in portrait mode and a second row of images is absolutely needed.

I believe that it will be too much work (price paid/service returned).
In fact I have to admit that I like to spend least possible time in PP … Hence my first intent with MF.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Different projections or different pictures in your composites, Nicolas?

I have the Zork with the Pentax 6x7 45mm lens and it's simply wonderful. I have it mounted in a RRS setup for easy rotation of the setup without crashing against the edge of the camera by the shutter button where 1D series cameras project a little more.

Asher

 

[Michael Fontana]

Bonsoir Nicolas

I've the Zörk too, with two hassi lenses; but I don't use it very much. Parth of it is that I had the same issues as Asher "crashing against the edge of the camera" and then, the hassi wides do have distortions, which make iit complex for architecture and its request for straight lines. It's rather difficult to correct that, when flatstitching.

I find the stitching approach to be more flexible.

 

[nicolas claris]

I'm so jealous!

12-24 is FF uncropped
35mm is stitched, pics shot on a tripod, just rotating, no nodal plate… 5 images in one row

 

[nicolas claris]

Bonsoir michael

I don't get it, what do you mean by "crashing against the edge of the camera"? is this hapening when you put your camera on portrait mode on the tripod?

What Hassie lenses do you have, I read that the Pentax 35FA is one of the best. Anyway I found none in stock on the market… (in the online shops)

 

[nicolas claris]

BTW Michael

one can't say that autopano is easy to understand, starting from scratch yesterday night I could only achieve the image posted late in the after noon today…
That said, it was on the G4 Powerbook and test and try is loooooooong with only 5 images… it took me a while to understand how to save PSD file not flattened!

and then, the result was far from perfect, I don't think the lack of nodal plate is faulty, but it is true that choosing a diagonal angle shoot in the room doesn't help much…

I'd like to know your default settings… hehe

 

[nicolas claris]

Sorry, I need some more help, can't do the maths!

The Pentax 35FA used with a FF 24x36 camera will give what equivalent focal?

 

[Asher Kelman]

Nicolas, I dont think there is any change in the focal length as the lens, to be best of my knowledge is mounted at the same distance from the CMOS sensor ast the MF lens is from the film plane when used as designed.

That's what I understand.

The word "crashing is too harsh! Better I should say might slighly scrape against and mark the Eos camera when the Zork is rotated. However, one can do it carefully.

My new setup I'll photograph works perfectly and there's no issue.

Asher

 

[nicolas claris]

Nicolas, I dont think there is any change in the focal length as the lens, to be best of my knowledge is mounted at the same distance from the CMOS sensor ast the MF lens is from the film plane when used as designed.

I'm not sure as one of the main interest of this combo is that it is using the center of the lens only, this is also why the Zörk can shift the lens… IMVHO

 

[nicolas claris]

And by the way, returning to first object of this thread, MF camera and lens can only be rented in Paris (AFAIK) and this is not very convenient for me!

 

[Michael Fontana]

Bonsoir michael

I don't get it, what do you mean by "crashing against the edge of the camera"? is this hapening when you put your camera on portrait mode on the tripod?

What Hassie lenses do you have, I read that the Pentax 35FA is one of the best. Anyway I found none in stock on the market… (in the online shops)

Nicolas

The zörk adapter, model, four years ago, had a tripod socktet, therefore the camera is moved, not the lens. This avoids "parallax errors", which is fine, but makesthe setup more complex, as the adapter hits the body of the 1 Ds-2.

The PSA should move further - in this picture - towards the upper left corner; but as you see on the uploaded image, its thin plate will hit the cam.

I don't know, if Mr Zörk will still state, than you can move the cam 360 degr. , but it will not work, unless you use a more complex setup. Before I bought it, I even asked Mr. Zörk about issues with my specific cam, - the 1 Ds-2- and he didn't mentioned it.

And I had to send twice the adapter to mr Zörk, for quality issues: The rotating "klicks" weren't stopping enough the heavy 1 Ds-2. It might work for ligther cams. Finally, they forgot to add the 20 mm- (shift) marks, so I had to do them myself.

Basically, I gave up the PSA for these reasons on location, as I hate to care about "fuzzy" equipements, when shooting - meanwhile its fine in the studio, when you can reshoot within a minute. IMO, the PSA is a good idea, but I had a hard time wih its imperfections.

I had the 50 and 80 mm distagon, in use.

 

[Michael Fontana]

For calculating your angles, you might download the freeware from kekus, who makes the pantools-plugin for Mac, and PTMac, http://www.kekus.com/software/fovcalculator.html

 

[leonardobarreto.com]

And by the way, returning to first object of this thread, MF camera and lens can only be rented in Paris (AFAIK) and this is not very convenient for me!

Nicolas: That is what I said in the first post to your thread: Probably the best way to go is some type of stitching solution. You don't want to test a new camera on an assignment, and an entire system of a different format, plus a digital back will probably will distract you to death in best case scenario.

MF is evolving with digital, Hasselblad is going one way and Rolley/Sinar/Leaf is going the opposite --"open source" way--, and solutions for wide angle coverage are yet to mature, but there will be more options later than now, that is for sure, so the best way to think is in long term. What are your needs going to be like and which system may go in that direction...

If you come to NY we can go shoot with my humble MF/camera/lenses..../

 

[Michael Fontana]

BTW Michael

one can't say that autopano is easy to understand, starting from scratch yesterday night I could only achieve the image posted late in the after noon today…
That said, it was on the G4 Powerbook and test and try is loooooooong with only 5 images… it took me a while to understand how to save PSD file not flattened!

and then, the result was far from perfect, I don't think the lack of nodal plate is faulty, but it is true that choosing a diagonal angle shoot in the room doesn't help much…

I'd like to know your default settings… hehe

OK, APP needs a bit of lecture of its wiki, but as it's from arround Grenoble, they have it in french, too.
I'm not sure if a G-4 powerbook is really the box to stitch, works pretty fast on a G-5-Quad with lots of RAMs.

For interiors, aka close objects, a panohead is crucial, unless you like to spend hours in PS....

Default settings: I figured out different setups, or different stitching "strategies", depending on the image requirements. From the 15 mm fisheye, to the 100 mm macro, I can use them all to stich. No additional lenses to buy....

This is one BIG advantage of stitching: It's very flexible, and when shooting, I still can enhance the "virtual" sensor size, AND the FOV (Field of View) by a adding a few shots. With a MFback, its impossible.

Example: When shooting this urbanistic panoramas, last week, (one of these beeing in that thread, another one in " Aperture and Auto Pano Pro?" ) I realised the lousy light conditions, not a beeing really good departure for what the customer wanted, but still had to be finished at the end of the week.

In better light condtions, I would have used the 50 mm macro, but as the contrast of the scene was really low, I decided to use the 100mm, bringing more resolution, aka "definition" into the picture.

Another advantage of stitching: The panohead beeing in use here is about 900 gramms, so I can carry it with me everywhere, not a big deal. On location, I can choose between shooting "normally" and stitching, maybe I'm be shooting to 80 - 90 % "normally" enough size for the magaznes, and for cover, etc, or for the principal shots, I'm stitching. I just like this flexibility.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Here's my setup with the 6x7 Pentax and 45mm lens.

This allows the Zork to be mounted very solidly on a tripod, the lens set in the rotation axis of the head and the Zork shift moves the camera, not the lens.

This way one can use the setup in portrait or landscape mode and also optionally extend the view by rotation!

Asher

 

[Michael Fontana]

Which cam, Asher?
Does it works on the 1 Ds-2, too?

 

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Sorry, I need some more help, can't do the maths!

The Pentax 35FA used with a FF 24x36 camera will give what equivalent focal?

On-line Panoramic calculators galore!

The 35mm will still be 35mm on the 1Ds Mk II, but it depends on your intended FOV (and overlap %) how many images are needed.

Bart

 

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Which cam, Asher?
Does it works on the 1 Ds-2, too?

I believe all 1D series camera bodies (with the exception of the 1D Mark III) have the same form factor.

Bart

 

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Bonsoir michael

I don't get it, what do you mean by "crashing against the edge of the camera"? is this hapening when you put your camera on portrait mode on the tripod?

It's relevant to explain two Panoramic MO's (methods of operation), to a relative newbie (just on this particular subject!

).

Some use a full swing approach, rotating in 2D or 3D about the lens' entry pupil/nodal point, others use a parallel shift left and shift right (or down and up for a vertical pano) approach (which might cause the shifted lens assembly to bump into the grip of the body, particularly in landscape orientation). In the latter case one needs to do a relatively simple shifted postprocessing of 2 images. In the former (especially 3D) case there are few limits, assuming a solid setup nails the geometrical positioning of the lens' entry pupil.

Bart

 

[Asher Kelman]

Which cam, Asher?
Does it works on the 1 Ds-2, too?

Yes it works on any Canon camera! The camera moves. Full clearance!

Asher

 

[Asher Kelman]

It's relevant to explain two Panoramic MO's (methods of operation), to a relative newbie (just on this particular subject!

).

Some use a full swing approach, rotating in 2D or 3D about the lens' entry pupil/nodal point, others use a parallel shift left and shift right (or down and up for a vertical pano) approach (which might cause the shifted lens assembly to bump into the grip of the body, particularly in landscape orientation). In the latter case one needs to do a relatively simple shifted postprocessing of 2 images. In the former (especially 3D) case there are few limits, assuming a solid setup nails the geometrical positioning of the lens' entry pupil.

Bart

It's really simpler!

The lens is mounted and fixed. It's nodal point is set at the cetner of axis of rotation of the trpod if you wish to rotate the lens too, however that is not needed most of the time, it's just an extra capability.

The camera shift to take images from overlapping parts of the massive Pentax MF lens circle. There is no issue with stitching since we are merely sampling from adjacent parts of an unshifted single lens circle.

If you wish to also swing the lens, then one has extra reach.

Asher