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  • Welcome to the new site. Here's a thread about the update where you can post your feedback, ask questions or spot those nasty bugs!

Approaches to importantly presented obscure matters that seem trivial or boring.

Mark Hampton

New member
R:



This is the part of Mark's thread, "Rules of the Game" that developed into a new set of lively ideas on approaching the obscure and what might seem plainly ludicrous art. Is it that we're not educated or does the artist need to explain more or else starve? How do we approach this work where we don't want to appear gullible or ignorant and yet don't want to ignore the V in the grass! After all, it might be the real thing!







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Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief




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Mark,

I still think this is a sexual image. Very simple but there. Just the Y of the thighs meeting the V . If it was a of a woman's face, it would already be considered a shrine and people would come to pray.

Asher
 
I'm sorry; perhaps too intellectual for me. I think we can find yonic or phallic symbols anywhere we choose to and once someone says it is there, then of course, we see it. Otherwise, i just see a strip in the grass.

So probably for people with deeper vision than I, as I'm still at the level where something has to get me in my gut first.

It does one thing though, it kind of makes me feel ignorant and a bit stupid not to get that it is surely brilliant. I've certainly got a lot to learn. :p
nothing personal
Maggie
 

Robert Watcher

Well-known member
I'm sorry; perhaps too intellectual for me. I think we can find yonic or phallic symbols anywhere we choose to and once someone says it is there, then of course, we see it. Otherwise, i just see a strip in the grass.

So probably for people with deeper vision than I, as I'm still at the level where something has to get me in my gut first.

It does one thing though, it kind of makes me feel ignorant and a bit stupid not to get that it is surely brilliant. I've certainly got a lot to learn. :p
nothing personal
Maggie


I agree totally with your sentiments Maggie. I looked at the series of shots and I just don't get it - I may be at a disadvantage being I am not interested in looking for phalic (male) or yonic (female) symbols in them.

The only thing that I could possibly relate to "rules of the game" and grass and what I am seeing in this thread - - - is golf. Maybe a divot or getting off the path. And so even though I didn't get it when I looked at the post yesterday, and still don't get it with a few additional replies today - I am no more informed.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
I'm sorry; perhaps too intellectual for me. I think we can find yonic or phallic symbols anywhere we choose to and once someone says it is there, then of course, we see it. Otherwise, i just see a strip in the grass.

So probably for people with deeper vision than I, as I'm still at the level where something has to get me in my gut first.

It does one thing though, it kind of makes me feel ignorant and a bit stupid not to get that it is surely brilliant. I've certainly got a lot to learn. :p
nothing personal
Maggie

Maggie,

One of things OPF tries to do is to have a broad reach. Photography has to do a lot of things, document what is true, show what is imagined, record the magic of a child at it's mother's breast or it's first bicycle ride or some eager young woman catching the bride's bouquet. So how does this work?

This is where Mark's interest in "reading images" becomes meaningful. You can find many teachers of photography describe how the eye enters your picture here and then moves to the next point of interest. It turns out that all the professors were wrong. Yes it appears we follow paths of interest, but we really don't. So this is what interests Mark,

"Just what makes us get our immediate and then considered reactions and understanding of images?"

He's used this to make his own art. He takes the risk that what he makes is nonsense. Yes it's really obscure to most of us much of the time! However, it's one branch of photography that can perhaps expose us to better understanding and therefore hone our own skills. Yes it's "academic", (even "pseudo-academic") and "artsy fartsy" combined. Still, we do need broad tolerance and welcoming of testing the boundaries of what we term photography. It includes treasuring classic silver gelatin, respecting pinhole and Holga work as well as reworking images we took years ago when we were different persons with other points of view.

I too sometimes find marks work beyond me, hence I have to see what I can in his work. So hence my remark on seeing nude in his Y mark. After all I'm seeing that in my studio right now. So that's my only connection. Maybe there's nothing more to connect too, but in making that jump, I realized some simplicity I might introduce in my own work.

So Maggie, don't let this bother you if you feel it's smartness above your head or crap beneath your feet. Those are reactions that are all viable. "Reading images", we thought we all understood, but now maybe we don't!

I wish I could say I can follow every single one of Mark's images, but I cannot. So you are not alone! Still, it's a valid and valuable part of the broad landscape we can make our journey in and pick up tools and resources on the way.

So, if you feel that most of this you can safely walk by, you will not be alone. Hopefully, there will be rare occasions when Marks work will give us an idea or insight worth taking with us.

Asher
 

Robert Watcher

Well-known member
I wish I could say I can follow every single one of Mark's images, but I cannot. So you are not alone! Still, it's a valid and valuable part of the broad landscape we can make our journey in and pick up tools and resources on the way.

I guess that for me - I can get when a photograph or work of art doesn't have to make sense to have value. I have no problem with that. I take many photographs that make no sense to people trying to figure out what is going on, and most of what I take is not preplanned but is a result of pointing my camera at whatever happens to be in front of me and capturing a pleasing composition and content. Everything doesn't have to be understood for others to appreciate or enjoy viewing it.

On the other hand - for me to enjoy or appreciate works of art or objects that do not make sense or do not appear to have much in the way of content or context or meaning or purpose - - - those pieces need to at least be visually appealing to me. That may be in a gentle or shocking or confusing way. All of the time I find art and photos like that that catch my eye and interest, and I have an appreciation for the work. I'm not trying to be nasty or judgemental with this set of photos - - - but they have no visual appeal to me either, and so I guess that is why I am hunting for something in the way of context or purpose to attach to the shots so that I can see where the value may be.

I also realize that photography is also about the act of producing something that only the photographer needs appreciate and love. That may be the case here from my perspective. Nothing against Mark at all - just my honest viewpoint.
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
I'm sorry; perhaps too intellectual for me. I think we can find yonic or phallic symbols anywhere we choose to and once someone says it is there, then of course, we see it. Otherwise, i just see a strip in the grass.

So probably for people with deeper vision than I, as I'm still at the level where something has to get me in my gut first.

It does one thing though, it kind of makes me feel ignorant and a bit stupid not to get that it is surely brilliant. I've certainly got a lot to learn. :p
nothing personal
Maggie

Now, Maggie, nothing personal here, but I find it puzzling when somebody does not understand someone who photographs a strip of grass yet have a personal web site with old garden furniture and dead leaves.

benchandredwall1.jpg

Yes, the picture is yours. I hope you don't mind me citing it from your web site.
 

Mark Hampton

New member
I'm sorry; perhaps too intellectual for me. I think we can find yonic or phallic symbols anywhere we choose to and once someone says it is there, then of course, we see it. Otherwise, i just see a strip in the grass.

So probably for people with deeper vision than I, as I'm still at the level where something has to get me in my gut first.

It does one thing though, it kind of makes me feel ignorant and a bit stupid not to get that it is surely brilliant. I've certainly got a lot to learn. :p
nothing personal
Maggie

Maggie,

thanks for the feedback - the work is not brilliant in any sense. i like to make things that I like to think at. sometimes they work well and others I learn more from by the mistakes. this work is one i enjoyed thinking through and making. its lessons for me get carried forward in the work.

its slow to some and crap to others and meh to some readers. i am happy with that.

cheers
 

Mark Hampton

New member
but they have no visual appeal to me either, and so I guess that is why I am hunting for something in the way of context or purpose to attach to the shots so that I can see where the value may be..

Robert,

does everything have to appeal to have value in a visual medium?

the purpose of the work is to make a small book of lazer prints to give away on day two of my workshop in Perth... in the fall

as Spain one the football and there is only 1 place left the cost has again gone up £2,300

cheers
 
Now, Maggie, nothing personal here, but I find it puzzling when somebody does not understand someone who photographs a strip of grass yet have a personal web site with old garden furniture and dead leaves.

Okay, fair enough, I take pictures of leaves and old garden furniture.

I never said that there was anything wrong with taking an image of grass. Anyone can take a picture of anything they want to. I just wanted to say that I didn't understand it and I didn't understand the game. It's not a question of what has been photographed. I am not judging that. I just couldn't get what the intent was. There was a photo I saw in a different thread, and I'm sorry I don't know where it is now, simply because it was before I joined and I can't for the life of me remember in which thread. It was an abstract that was deep dark red and had some almost black textures and a bit of light in the lower right. It wasn't a picture of anything that I could identify but I loved its warmth and its depth and I wanted to jump into it, as if it were a barrel of wonderful merlot. That for me is a gut reaction.

You may think I flippantly just dismissed Mark's images but I didn't. I saw them yesterday and thought about them, but I just couldn't get it. I saw them again today and still didn't. It was not that I hated them, I didn't have any reaction at all. And yes, I felt a little dumb to not get it.

So, you put my work here and I suppose it was meant to say that it was not interesting to you and mundane and boring and certainly not intellectual. And you are right. I am not an intellectual photographer. When I was a teen a read a book on Van Gogh and how he sometimes depicted people by where they sat, or their belongings. Since then, I have loved empty chairs, benches, bikes. It just something that I love and has no artsy-fartsy intent. I am a romantic at heart and sensitive and these types images get to me. It's alright if they don't get to you for not being unique or special enough and perhaps you thought you'd give me a good kick in the butt by showing what you consider my mediocre photography. All I can say is that some people like it and have paid a small amounts to buy it. Even if they wouldn't, it still appeals to me. It is who I am and although I continue to try to widen my horizons photography-wise, I hope not to try to appeal to others by doing what I think is smart, or what others will think is cool but by doing what I love and taking pictures of what I love.
 
I hope you know Mark, that I didn't mean to offend you in any way. I just said I didn't understand. I lurked on this website for a couple months before joining and pondered if I should several times, not knowing if I would fit in. I do enjoy the conversations and I want to take part in them. I cannot see where it would be of any benefit to just say I love it just to fit in. I also don't want to say I don't like it just to be controversial. I just wanted to be honest. If I can't be, then I prefer not to comment at all, because why would you believe me if I say I loved something, if I didn't say when I didn't or that I couldn't understand it. By your response, I don't feel like you took it personally at all, and I appreciate that.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
I hope you know Mark, that I didn't mean to offend you in any way. I just said I didn't understand. I lurked on this website for a couple months before joining and pondered if I should several times, not knowing if I would fit in. I do enjoy the conversations and I want to take part in them. I cannot see where it would be of any benefit to just say I love it just to fit in. I also don't want to say I don't like it just to be controversial. I just wanted to be honest. If I can't be, then I prefer not to comment at all, because why would you believe me if I say I loved something, if I didn't say when I didn't or that I couldn't understand it. By your response, I don't feel like you took it personally at all, and I appreciate that.

Be comfortable Maggie that we're open here. It's honest to say something is meaningless to us. I hate it when foll are too well man erred to tell the truth. As for your picture, I'm a sucker for benches and leaves, although this is the first picture I remember seeing the leaves on the bench. One of my dreams is to be in New York in fall when the leaves are everywhere and crunchy.

Asher
 
I was feeling a little squeamish about commenting anymore as I felt like I was being told, "How dare you, when all you have to show for yourself is this !", so I really appreciate your reply which tells me I don't have to skedaddle and get the heck out of here before even getting into the hallway.

and thanks for not saying you think my photo is crap. :)
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
I was feeling a little squeamish about commenting anymore as I felt like I was being told, "How dare you, when all you have to show for yourself is this !", so I really appreciate your reply which tells me I don't have to skedaddle and get the heck out of here before even getting into the hallway.

and thanks for not saying you think my photo is crap. :)
Maggie,

In fact your pictures are enjoyable when I like them. By contrast Mark's images require me to think. That's good but works too. Both have value.

Part of what we have to do is best express our own personal artistic needs. Well that's not so easy since few really have clue what they are, LOL! Gradually, though, with feedback, perhaps, one can get some understanding of all the hidden parameters by which our brains choose what to ignore and what to photograph. As we get better, we can then produce bodies of work which have some coherence. It's not my job to deliver work that you like. Rather it's your job to be honest in reactions to what I offer.

Gradually, each of us is then able to focus on a body of work we like and are proud of. It represents our values and needs. Also we can choose some of this as the portion we will market to the world. The feedback here will help in both if we work together.

I like the fact that Jerome challenges you. I don't think he was being dismissive but asking you to defend your position. You are certainly able to look after yourself and your work is worthy of being looked at by everyone here. We all need to be challenged.

I hope we will earn your loyalty and patience when folk say what they think.

I hadn't noticed that bench with leaves before and now I have it and that made my day. Have a look at these NY Central Park Image with autumn leaves. These I'm especially fond of! They were edited from Ron Teitelbaum's Leica M8 RAW files by the late Don Lashier, a brilliant photographer and a good person. His untimely passing was a shock to us and tragic loss for his family and this community.

teitelbaum174.jpg


teitelbaum179.jpg

And now I see there were indeed leaves on the benches! So I did not read the image well enough the first time around. Well, glad I've had another opportunity.

Asher

BTW, I'll repair the broken links in the old thread I referenced. Apple closed .me accounts so I have to migrate hundreds of files from early years!
 

Robert Watcher

Well-known member
I was feeling a little squeamish about commenting anymore as I felt like I was being told, "How dare you, when all you have to show for yourself is this !", so I really appreciate your reply which tells me I don't have to skedaddle and get the heck out of here before even getting into the hallway.

and thanks for not saying you think my photo is crap. :)

I actually see your image of the bench and leaved, quite differently than the ones of the grass related to this thread. There is an appeal to your image. The content or subject matter isn't really am issue - - - but I would say that art is always about visual appeal. If there is none, then there better be a good story or motivation behind the work.
 

Robert Watcher

Well-known member
Robert,

does everything have to appeal to have value in a visual medium?


cheers


I would say that it should have visual appeal - I think that is what the art of photography is all about - - - and if not, it better have a good story, purpose or motivation that is obvious. But please note, that that is just my opinion. You are certainly entitled to yours.

Because a photograph has been taken and presented to someone, does not automatically make it either of any value or as thought-provoking. Every person on earth is currently snapping tons of shots each day and expect others to sit through the boredom of viewing these snapshots that they find pleasure in (whether in person or on Facebook or on their blogs). Doesn't even matter if they are good or not. They are snapshots that are really more of a waste of someones time than being a visual medium that stretches people's imaginations and creativity. I discard hundreds if not thousands of shots that don't exhibit those qualities (as well as many that do) every time I go out and shoot and come back to my work space and edit. Because a picture is taken, does not mean that it has any use or value other than to the person who took it.

Mark - I searched the forum and viewed some of your other posts - - - and there are some wierd and different images that you have posted that I can find pleasure in viewing. As I stated, as hard as I try - there is nothing in this set of images that even causes me to think or perceive differently than what is in front of me. I have no idea how them being printed as lazer copies and put in some kind of book would sway my opinion on that (I have customers and family showing me their homemade books containing their photos - on a regular basis - and it does nothing to excite me or make me want to dig deeper). I hope that you find success when you give them away to those who attend your seminar. It could well be that you have some personal appeal that would make those attending accept the book and go "wow" based on that.

This is strictly my viewpoint - - - one based on 35 years of full time professional work in the industry, but also based on my very liberal and open slant on things - and always pushing the boundaries of what I do to keep my work interesting for me. So technically - I should get it.

Anyway - it's been a blast engaging in this conversation (unfortunately no "smilies" on this forum to imply my intent - which you'll have to trust me, is not mean spirited).
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
So, you put my work here and I suppose it was meant to say that it was not interesting to you and mundane and boring and certainly not intellectual.

Actually, no. Sorry for that. The opposite is true: I find your pictures quite interesting. For example, the picture I cited is more than a bench and dead leaves. Your choice of lens, composition and post treatment work together to tell a story. For me, it is a story about old houses and gardens which have seen better summers. The choice of furniture style reminds me of garden parties of the time when my grandmother was young and the presentation makes me realize the many houses and gardens of the French countryside who were bustling with life at the time and lay empty of users today.

Yes: it is more than a bench and dead leaves. So I am surprised that you did not see that Mark's presentation of pictures was more than a lawn and dead grass.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Entertaining discussion, though.

"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."

George,

I would offer for your consideration, "Never!". Yes, it does seem extreme, but consider that possibility. Every object is coated with a mess of associations that I'd suggest, cannot likely be removed. Without them, the word "Cigar" might have little meaning: For those making it, it's a way of feeding their children, for the man who smokes it, it shows his state of mind, wealth, privilege, class and more.

Here's my take on it. The point of art is that it stimulates the brain and causes us to go to our mental library, run down the stacks and find all the references to that cigar. So it's never the thing itself. Cannot be.

Every single object or situation we see is related to past experiences, and a whole slew of significance values. Freud got stuck on one of them, but there are countless other references the brain makes. This work uses up most of the energy of our constantly working, sorting, evaluating brain. What we are actually are conscious of is likely just 1% of that.

So can a cigar ever be just that? The problem is that once you say what a cigar is, you have to keep talking to explain it. That's what the brain is doing. Anyway, just my POV!

Asher
 
Actually, no. Sorry for that. The opposite is true: I find your pictures quite interesting. For example, the picture I cited is more than a bench and dead leaves. Your choice of lens, composition and post treatment work together to tell a story. For me, it is a story about old houses and gardens which have seen better summers. The choice of furniture style reminds me of garden parties of the time when my grandmother was young and the presentation makes me realize the many houses and gardens of the French countryside who were bustling with life at the time and lay empty of users today.

Yes: it is more than a bench and dead leaves. So I am surprised that you did not see that Mark's presentation of pictures was more than a lawn and dead grass.

Jerome, I'm sorry that I jumped on your back but I felt attacked. Sadly, proof of my thin-skin and lack of self-confidence that I probably would have liked to hide until people had a chance to get to know about my good qualities and then overlook them. I appreciate you coming back and showing me know that you are not a total jerk and that I'm not a total waste of everyone's time.

That said, I wish I could say that I get the grass photos as I do want you all to like me, but I still don't and maybe Mark or you or someone will let me in on the meaning so that I can be awakened. As a series, I am supposing they are supposed to make some sort of logical sense, but then perhaps not.
 

Tom dinning

Registrant*
Hey, Mark. can you come and mow my grass? I might find a vagina in amongst the weeds like Asher did. I look at my lawn every day and ponder its inner qualities. I've noticed where the dog shits it grows faster.
I don't smoke cigars so I can't comment on them still being cigars.
Benches are my favourite thing to sit on, leaves or not.
I still haven't had lunch.
Jerome, you need to be a bit more direct with your approach. Its hard to read between the lines some days. You can really piss people off with your ambiguity.
Mark. You are definitely weird!!! I love that. Keep it up. Or not.
Here's a thought. Be 'normal'; that would be really weird.
Cheers
Tom
PS.
I love it when Asher jupms to people's defense. He's like the Pope from Beverley Hills.
 

Mark Hampton

New member
That said, I wish I could say that I get the grass photos as I do want you all to like me, but I still don't and maybe Mark or you or someone will let me in on the meaning so that I can be awakened. As a series, I am supposing they are supposed to make some sort of logical sense, but then perhaps not .

Maggie,

on this thread I have explained what i have done - the process - and the purpose of what I have done.

what you get from this and the work is your meaning - your idea. if its nothing then its failed.

there is no mystery.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
I love it when Asher jupms to people's defense. He's like the Pope from Beverley Hills.

Tom,

We do have an extra Pope here in southern Ca. He lives in Long Beach and I believe he's connected with Mel Gibson and his Dad who vehemently believe in the torture story of the New Testament and think the Pope in Rome is an imposter etc. The Catholic Church near is is very sedate and has a great following for masses.

Nearby is a wonderful Cactus Garden maintained by the city of Beverly hills.

Asher
 
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Jerome Marot

Well-known member
Jerome, I'm sorry that I jumped on your back but I felt attacked.

I am the one who should feel sorry. The message did not come as intended and I should pay more attention to ambiguities. They are a known problem on the Internet, because the written medium lacks context which would otherwise be obvious in an oral discussion.
 

Mark Hampton

New member
R:



This is the part of Mark's thread, "Rules of the Game" that developed into a new set of lively ideas on approaching the obscure and what might seem plainly ludicrous art. Is it that we're not educated or does the artist need to explain more or else starve? How do we approach this work where we don't want to appear gullible or ignorant and yet don't want to ignore the V in the grass! After all, it might be the real thing!



i had not bothered to read this - had i I would have said GTF. considering the words used and the way that context informs reading i feel that this thread is not fair contextulisation of my work. i would ask if you can move this to your safe place.
 
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