Beyond Al Gore: The OPF Global Warming Debate!

[Asher Kelman]

This thread was previously "Breaking NEWS: MONDAY FEBRUARY 26th, 2007"

Al Gore Oscar For Documentary on Global Warming: No big surpise but an important recogniton of the importance of facing the reality of climate change whether driven by natural geoplanetry cycles or man. The

The BBC already highlighted him in May 2006:

Asher

 

[Asher Kelman]

Legitimizing Global Warming Warnings and our Imperatives!

Al Gore Oscar For Documentary on Global Warming:[/B] No big surpise but an important recogniton of the importance of facing the reality of climate change whether dirve by narual geoplanetry cycles or man.

This and recent reports by various study groups have sought to shift discussions from scientifc papers in geophysical journals and sociological academic and tree "huggers" to the main stream debate.

As pointed out indbay.org one can argue geopolitical reasons and a huge lobbying presence of the petrochemical and other major industires have to date stymied attempts to bring the issue to the forefront.

Questions:

1. So now how legitimized is the debate?
   
2. What is needed to go from here?
   
3. Do we have the will curtail activities that enhance global warming.
   
4. Will we decrease the impact on our biosphere.
   
5. Can the economic industrial engines by switched to eco-neutral fuels and materials.
   
6. How will this impact society structure and quaility of life, now and in the next 50 years, our childrens life time!F

Asher

 

[Asher Kelman]

The real cost of digital photography? Environment: Can you figure it out?

What could you estimate is the environmental benefit of digital photography.

After all we now are not millions of tons of chemical, spewing millions of tons of pollutants or trucking the film and chemical all over to get them into the commercial supply chain.

Digital film requires no gasoline to transport. I can't imagine that the 4GB CG card uses anywhere near the resources of the silver gelatin it replaces and inkjets further sweeten the equation!

Sound good!

Now is it really? I personally don't know. IOW what do you think are the real effects of digital photography on our planet?

Asher

 

[Aaron Strasburg]

No one's biting?

OK, Asher, I'll bite. I think much of the environmental hysteria we hear day in, day out is a load of hooey.

You'll get no argument from me that the earth is warming. I will argue:

• Much of the warming took place before the industrial revolution, so "we" didn't start this. The earth has been warming since the 19th century, after the Medieval Warm Period and Little Ice Age.
• Global warming is happening at a linear rate and is expected to continue at a linear rate.
• Gore's claim that melting ice will raise sea level by 20 feet is completely unsupported by science. The latest IPCC report suggests 8-17" by 2100. And that's not a given, as earlier this month Science published a report that the accelerated rate of ice loss in Greenland has now reversed itself.
• The Kyoto Protocol, even if it were fully implemented and adhered to by its signatories, would only reduce warming by about 0.14C in the next century, an amount too small to measure. And none of the signatories are meeting their goals!
• Energy fuels the economy. Economic growth raises our standard of living. If you want to reduce carbon emissions you must slow economic growth. Maybe that's not a catastrophe in wealthy countries like the US and in Europe, but do you really want to condemn the rest of the world to their current standard of living? Make no mistake, the US and Europe can't solve this. It would require the same from China, India, and every other developing economy in the world.

Are we willing to do what it will take to reverse global warming? I doubt it. I doubt that it's even possible and I have serious questions about whether it's even desirable. Reducing our energy consumption means that we can't take off in our cars to the mountains or shore for a photo shoot. We can't leave our computers on so we can post on OPF at all ours. Heck, we shouldn't even have computers. Think of the amount of energy involved in making this iMac in front of me.

I ride a motorcycle to work almost every day. It weighs 450lbs and gets 40+MPG. Think of the energy I save compared to the rest of the people around me in their cars blabbering away on their cell phones. And it was cold and windy on the way home from work. If people are really serious about this why don't they ride motorcycles, or even better a bicycle? How about here on OPF? How many of us are willing to make the sacrifice? Didn't think so.... And do you know what? I don't care. Do what you want to do, just don't try to make me feel guilty about what I do. Especially if your name is Al Gore.

 

[Paul Bestwick]

I do not believe the myth of global warming. Yes I can see a planetary change at the moment but believe that is part of a natural cycle. I believe the global warming con, which is close to mass hysteria is part of a plan by the world ruling elitists to bring in the one world government. This in turn under the guise of protecting the world will only serve to enslave it. These are very freaky times



Regards to all my photographer friends around the world.

Paul

 

[Harvey Moore]

I do not believe the myth of global warming. Yes I can see a planetary change at the moment but believe that is part of a natural cycle. I believe the global warming con, which is close to mass hysteria is part of a plan by the world ruling elitists to bring in the one world government. This in turn under the guise of protecting the world will only serve to enslave it. These are very freaky times



Regards to all my photographer friends around the world.

Paul

I agree with Paul on this. Climate changes have been with this planet since "day one".

I will add "Follow the money", and don't forget to purchase your "Carbon Offsets"

 

[Ray West]

There is another effect, not so well documented, but called 'global dimming'. It is connected with the pollution in the atmosphere causing clouds to form as smaller droplets, and thus they reflect sunlight away from the earth more effectively than the clouds of 30 years ago. At the moment, it is counteracting to some extent the global warming/green house effect caused by co2. The tricky thing is to make the correct changes, at the correct speed, if anyone even knows what that may be. Of course, Global dimming explains why most of us can't see as clearly as we used to...

Another thing, not widely known about co2, is that it is a depressant. It probably explains why welders are so miserable.

A lot of folk are jumping on bandwagons, a lot more will be making fortunes out of 'going green'. I have never heard so much garbage talked about wind power and the like. (I have no idea if that relates to the video mentioned, but it is more of a sort of response to the other opinions mentioned here.)

Best wishes,

Ray

 

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

I do not believe the myth of global warming.

I wish you were right, but how to convince the majority of the scientific world that they are wrong, and you are right ...?
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v445/n7128/full/445567a.html
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v445/n7128/full/445578a.html
http://ipcc-wg1.ucar.edu/wg1/docs/WG1AR4_SPM_Approved_05Feb.pdf

Bart

 

[Asher Kelman]

I too would love to learn of the refutation of all the scientific data and accept that we can add "Global Warming" to other "Mythologies" like "Evolution"!

My father, may his soul rest im peace, would be comforted since he held it was all ordained in heaven and described in the bible and if it wasn't "Then of what importance could it be?"

I think the hungry birds in Southern California would be reassured that the insects and food that is coming to life early, way before they are arrive here are going to stick around just to feed them!

Asher

 

[Louis Doench]

I do not believe the myth of global warming. Yes I can see a planetary change at the moment but believe that is part of a natural cycle. I believe the global warming con, which is close to mass hysteria is part of a plan by the world ruling elitists to bring in the one world government. This in turn under the guise of protecting the world will only serve to enslave it. These are very freaky times



Regards to all my photographer friends around the world.

Paul

Let me get this straight... The "world ruling elites" want to bring in "one world government" in order to "enslave" the world? And you think Global Warming is crazy?

If they are "world ruling elites".... then they don't need to "enslave" anybody! By definition... They rule the world! Why do they need to set up a one world government? They rule the world!

I like a lil paranoia as much as the next guy... but according to you, they're not out to get us.. they've already got us!

 

[Don Lashier]

Gimme a break - any rational thinker knows that global warming is due to Planet X (aka Persephone).

- DL

 

[Nill Toulme]

Impossible. Planet X is round, and the earth is plainly flat.

Nill
~~
www.toulme.net

 

[Nikolai Sklobovsky]

Bart

I wish you were right, but how to convince the majority of the scientific world that they are wrong, and you are right ...?
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v445/n7128/full/445567a.html
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v445/n7128/full/445578a.html
http://ipcc-wg1.ucar.edu/wg1/docs/WG1AR4_SPM_Approved_05Feb.pdf

Bart

With all due respect... After being in and around a scientific community (uber mathematical physics) for almost 15 years (that is, long time ago, but I highly doubt they have changed) I can swear on the Bible, Quran, my kid's lives or whatever object you hold sacred that for each "research" proving "A is happening/true" there will be at least ten proving otherwise.
If you think politics is dirty you never saw what happens inside so called "scientific circles"...
It's all a matter of:

1) money
2) personal preferences

in this order.
If you somehow managed to scramble a lot of 1st you then may have a luxury to follow the 2d. But it would be *personal* anyway.

So it's up to who do you believe and whom you can make a believer of.
As to the "truth"... Just as in photography (or any art), there is no such thing, there are only various points of view....

Cheers!

 

[Bob Krueger]

...As to the "truth"... Just as in photography (or any art), there is no such thing, there are only various points of view....

I'm afraid I'd have to agree with that. There are no facts. There are only data and various interpretations of it...no matter the subject.

 

[Jeff O'Neil]

It's comforting to bury ones head in the idealistic notion that change has always been a factor of our environment.

But, there are too many changes over the last 20 years to ignore. I can't speak for any other part of the world other than where I live. Southwestern Ontario Canada. My dad and I were talking about this the other night. When I was a young lad we always had snow by mid December and lots of it. Not now. We don't see snow until Mid january at the earliest.

We no longer have a fall season with a gradual cool down nor do we have a gradual warm up in the spring.

We have tree species not doing well that have thrived for centuries. We have lakes that no longer freeze..ever. We have far hotter summers albeit in shorter time frames but much hotter than 25 years ago.

Look at you own local environment. What has been the difference in the past 20-25 years that you can actually sit back and thing about?

I look at it this way. There are some pretty dedicated scientists telling us we have to change our ways and change soon. Then there are the nay sayers. I liken it to the tobacco situation. (I am a smoker btw) For ever study that comes out somehow there are some experts that say NO!

Are they and their research supported by tobacco firms? We may never know.

The same logic applies to global warming. Who has the most to lose? And do they have substantial weight in lobbying? Who has the most to lose...Big Oil companies. It's not in their favor if we switch to more fuel efficient cars, home heating and alternative electricity.

Right now the idea of making cars electric is nice but not a reality. California goes through brownouts every summer. Imagine if everyone had to charge up their car on that electricity grid? The electrical infrastructure is not there.

While it's nice and comforting to say..these people disagree...I don't think we can ignore those that are trying to tell us we are in trouble.

Fixing the problem is not a global issue. It's an issue that lives in every community around the world. How can we become less dependent on fossil fuels and how can we manage our substances when we're done with them?

The argument about change is fundamentally wrong when you consider that 25 years ago there were very few plastics and petro chemical creations to dispose of. Twenty five years ago most garbage was more like a compost heap. A little methane was released but that was natural decomposition. Now it's nothing more than a toxic waste dump for future generations to deal with.

Is that our legacy in our own community?

I can't change the world. But here in Toronto we have 3 types of garbage. Food products that get picked up every week. Recycled materials that get picked up every other week and just plain garbage that gets picked up on the off week. In Ontario we have a glass program now that separates the colors of glass. Why? Because you can't mix up all the glass as it's unusable for new glass if it has different colors in it. Now we separate the colored glass.

We're making a difference in our local area.

Global warming is a factor. You can bury you head, you can point to studies that try and prove otherwise but please do the research to find out who paid for the study. Thats one of the most important points to consider.

I'll go recycle now and be quiet!

Jeff

 

[Duke Beattie]

With all due respect... After being in and around a scientific community (uber mathematical physics) for almost 15 years (that is, long time ago, but I highly doubt they have changed) I can swear on the Bible, Quran, my kid's lives or whatever object you hold sacred that for each "research" proving "A is happening/true" there will be at least ten proving otherwise.
If you think politics is dirty you never saw what happens inside so called "scientific circles"...
It's all a matter of:

1) money
2) personal preferences

in this order.
If you somehow managed to scramble a lot of 1st you then may have a luxury to follow the 2d. But it would be *personal* anyway.

So it's up to who do you believe and whom you can make a believer of.
As to the "truth"... Just as in photography (or any art), there is no such thing, there are only various points of view....

Cheers!

I love this!! I have been working at a university for the last 20+ years. I have always been amazed by the tenure process . Probably the most political thing in the world. I work in an electronics support shop. We fix the equipment they break. The big joke is to ask what kind of numbers they want, so we can adjust the instruments properly. I am very suspicious of scientific findings. Every "fact" charges yearly and becomes wrong. We had a professor who refused to talk to colleges at another university because "they don't know what they are talking about" Remember - on any university campus it's "publish or perish" Personally I am waiting for global warming to cause the next ice age. That's the theory I like best. . . .

 

[Nikolai Sklobovsky]

Dear Jeff,

It's comforting to bury ones head in the idealistic notion that change has always been a factor of our environment.

Please, let's not use these type of cliches. If I don't agree with you or somebody else it does not necessarily means I'm ignorant, it simply means I have a different opinion.

But, there are too many changes over the last 20 years to ignore.
I can't speak for any other part of the world other than where I live. Southwestern Ontario Canada.
My dad and I were talking about this the other night. When I was a young lad we always had snow by mid December and lots of it.
Not now. We don't see snow until Mid January at the earliest.

Well, in this case let me speak for the part of the world where I live, and I live next to LA.
This year we had snow in Malibu. That was pretty much unheard of.
Next to my house (20 miles from Malibu) we only had hail,
but just another ten miles further West we also had this (second year in a row, mind you):

Those hills are only 1000-2000 ft high, not even remotely close to have snow any time of year at our longitude..

Applying your own logic, we should expect the next Ice Age in a few years
(and comfortably blame the Democrats for that, cause it would happen on their watch

Jokes apart - yes, there are some climate changes.
However, whether they are caused by us humans or by some cosmic powers remains a BIG question.
And as far as I know, many of such climatic changes are cyclic, many caused by 11-years Bethe's cycle
and another one (forgot the name), which is considered to be 110 years long.
I'm more inclined to blame the Sun than I am to British Petroleum.

There is an officially registered record about the whole northern part of Russia
didn't have any snow until the mid January one year in early XIX century.
I bet there was a lot of press hailing that the end of the world is coming and the polar caps are going to to melt.
That's been about 200 years ago.
Polar caps are still in place and I don't have any solid fact about big chunks of lands disappearing under the water...

Wait a minute...

Of course!

New Orleans!

Yes, it MUST be a global warming!

Cheers!

 

[Nikolai Sklobovsky]

Duke,

....Personally I am waiting for global warming to cause the next ice age. That's the theory I like best. . . .

Yay, that's what I'm talking about!

You'll have hot spa with chicks, you'll have ice cold martiny/Vieux Vieuve...
Don't forget the MarkIII to capture this beautiful scenery )

And hell with the scientists, they are all nerds anyway )

 

[Asher Kelman]

Sorry to apprear preachy, but here are the facts:

There are indeed long term cycles of warming and cooling. However, the industrialization of the planet has coincided and correlates with the fact of markedly increased global warming over the last 80 years. Only recently have we had the technology to map global water tempertaures and to integrate findings from many scientific disciplines. All support the conclusion of global warming.

All the costing in our lives and the growth of crops and livestock are dpendant or narrow margins of temperature consitons for economic function. Global warming has been made some "evil myth" like Marxism, to be ablated from the minds of the young lest they go astray!

The fact of global warming is something that the corporations and the Republican party in the USA have dismissed. We do not have advanced alternative sources of energy because our wind stations and solar plants are still too primitive as we've pretty well ignored this because of cheap oil.

Similarly, the left, fearing ecological disasters, has pressured to halt nuclear plant construction so that technology has languished in the USA. There are no modern, safe protected plants to take the place of dirty oil. The latter causes wars and relseases noxious material into the air.

We biuild with steel and not wood! wood takes Carbon out of the atmosphere.

We have millions of methane producing cows in fields and millions of tons of fertizers to those fields to grow the fodder for the animals. The methane is not recaptured and worsens our heat load for hte planet.

People can deny as much as they like that there's global warming. They many or may not understand the physics of shifts of the polar axis of roataion of the earth and magnetic flux upheavals or the massive dam building in China which are among the myriads of hard to deal with contributors to climate change and seal levels.You want ot reallocate blame between competing factors, fine by me! After all you are not being nominated for a professor ship in envoronmental technology and neither am I. However, the fact of global warming is undeniable.

So we are left with climate change!

A large percentage of birds expected in the UK last year did not arrive because their Sahara watering places wehre dired up! We are looking at having to plant southern California plants in N, Ca and in Canada to maintain the populations of birds and insects needed for hte ecosystems to survive. All due to early spring and flowersbirds and butterfiles coming at non synchronized times.

Climate change means hotter summers and more air conditoning and more water to cool facotry production proceses which are temperature dependant. This increases costs to the companies that make things!

There is no big mythological figure persuading people to keep air conditioners on longer.

Fact is, it's hotter!

Fact is humans are toxic to the planet!

Asher

 

[Paul Bestwick]

Let me get this straight... The "world ruling elites" want to bring in "one world government" in order to "enslave" the world? And you think Global Warming is crazy?

If they are "world ruling elites".... then they don't need to "enslave" anybody! By definition... They rule the world! Why do they need to set up a one world government? They rule the world!

Hey Louis,

I wish I knew the exact nature of the hidden agenda, I don't. I just know that it is happening.
& yes , of course they rule the world

Cheers,

Paul

 

[Ray West]

Hi Paul,

I wish I knew the exact nature of the hidden agenda, I don't. I just know that it is happening.

fud, and muddy the water to catch the fish - and then you got no fish left to catch. I do not think you really want to know the agenda.

Best wishes,

Ray

 

[Paul Bestwick]

Hey Ray,

I have an inkling of an idea...........lets start with 4/5ths reduction of the world population.......
How about ww3......already started.
Me personally, I just want to take photos, make art, drink nice red wine have good friends. So, that is what I do & ignore reality as much as is feasible.

Heavy huh.

Paul

 

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

As to the "truth"... Just as in photography (or any art), there is no such thing, there are only various points of view....

While true, if the vast majority of the scientific community shares a common vision (despite margins of (im)probability), the probability of them being right in their evaluation exceeds the chance of the nay sayers being right by a pretty large margin. I'd say there might be some 'truth' in the concensus.

Bart

 

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

I'm afraid I'd have to agree with that. There are no facts. There are only data and various interpretations of it...no matter the subject.

Unfortunately there are plenty of facts. In fact there are so many facts, some of them are conflicting, that it takes fundamental research to separate the outliers from the trends. There finally (since early February'07) is formal consensus in the scientific community about the probabilities (90%). That leaves only a margin of 5% that things may be turn out better than expected, and a 5% chance that things will turn out worse.

Just being realistic, sorry,
Bart

 

[Ray West]

Hi Bart,

thanks for the link. I wonder if our political leaders have enough brain cells between them, to get it sorted out, or even have the balls to get China, USA, etc. to comply with whatever regulations are required. There is no system in place to enforce international law, afaik. Anyway, if no action is taken, it will be self regulating. Anyway, it getting hotter here on earth, will be good training for the next place many of us think the others will go to.

Best wishes,

Ray

 

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

A large percentage of birds expected in the UK last year did not arrive because their Sahara watering places wehre dired up! We are looking at having to plant southern California plants in N, Ca and in Canada to maintain the populations of birds and insects needed for hte ecosystems to survive. All due to early spring and flowersbirds and butterfiles coming at non synchronized times.

Yep, we have many bird species in the Netherlands that are supposed to follow their food sources into Africa during the winter, they didn't.
This year's winter was on February 8th, with snow. Several decades ago, I could still ice skate in the streets of my hometown, not anymore.
Many insects are supposed to perish during the winter (survival of the fittest), leaving a slightly more pleasant environment during the rest of the year, most don't perish.
We have bug infestations at our latitude, that are common to the Mediterranean latitudes (e.g. ones causing sheep diseases like 'blue tongue' we never used to have before), even African Malaria mosquitoes are gradually gaining ground in Europe.
We see plants that are deemed to not survive our winters, thriving.
My bird feeder was left almost untouched this winter, there are plenty of insects available for birds so they don't have to come close to the homes.
Last year was the hottest summer, and we now have the hottest winter, at least since 1706 (systematic/reliable measurements were recorded since then, not having to rely on tree-rings and such)!
The list goes on, and on, ...

Besides the trend, there is also little doubt that human intervention/industrialization is adding to the underlying long term trends. All one has to do is look around (and I even don't need to look at the hockey stick graphs of trends over the last 10000 year, although they do confirm the same trend).

Bart

 

[Don Lashier]

Fact: The Antarctic ice sheet is losing as much as 36 cubic miles of ice a year

Fact: Greenland ice sheet is losing 240 cubic kilometres per year, 3x faster than previously thought

Fact: Arctic ice has thinned by four feet since 1953 - a 40 percent decrease.

Fact: Average glacier is thinning by 1 foot a year.

Fact: Island nations in the Pacific are being inundated

Fact: Coral reefs are dying off

pictures of above (by a fellow photographer here on the Oregon Coast)

What's not a fact is the cause of all this, but clearly CO2 levels are suspect:

I agree that scientist's prognostications are suspect - they've been wrong and totally reversed their theory too many times in the past, but here the evidence seems overwhelming - even GB (the ultimate sellout to oil) has admitted this after censoring government scientists on this matter for years. Climate models (let alone weather models) are incredibly complex and highly inaccurate. For instance, one thing that's widely overlooked is that Krakatoa suppressed temperatures by about 1 degree for nearly 100 years masking the onset of global warming.

Am I worried? Not -really - I could use a little excitement before I die (like the Greenland Icesheet sliding into the ocean) and now that the threat of nuclear holocaust has subsided this is the best bet we have, and I live three houses back from the ocean so all the collapsing cliffs are only increasing my property value and I may be oceanfront soon With any luck I won't have to move to Florida for a warmer retirement although summers have been cooler here recently as all the heat inland just sucks in more ocean air cooling us on the coast. Winters have been warmer though - we haven't had a good freeze in nearly a decade.

Am I concerned? Certainly, and I do my part by recycling and using energy efficient stuff where possible, but the fact is that without major changes in lifestyle worldwide it's unlikely imo that anything will be averted. The dice have been rolled and all we can do now is sit back and watch the show.

- DL

 

[Ivan Garcia]

[snip]
Am I concerned? Certainly, and I do my part by recycling and using energy efficient stuff where possible, but the fact is that without major changes in lifestyle worldwide it's unlikely imo that anything will be averted. The dice have been rolled and all we can do now is sit back and watch the show.[/snip]

- DL

Hi Don
Welcome back, where have you been?
interesting places I hope.
Please don’t take me wrong, I appreciate the fact that you recycle and use energy efficient resources.
But that statement is just pants my friend, there is plenty we can do.
For starters, we all know that one of the mayor causes of CO2 is the personal vehicle, there is a way forwards for this contributor to global warming to cease it’s emissions, Electric cars are not the option, hydrogen is the answer, the technology exist and is safe to use, what is needed is a change of politics, a severe and radical change in our laws, banning fossil fuels, will accelerate the deployment of this source of energy, which only waste product is pure water. We only need some one, with enough balls to do it.

 

[Paul Bestwick]

well me....i am gonna buy another car......a v12 & learn to drive both my cars at once. Then I am gonna turm my 20 ac units up to overdrive cos I don'tt believe it does dick. Why, Mt ST Helens etc anon probably did more then 1000 yrs human activity.What a crock......no offence intended

Cheers,

Paul

 

[Ivan Garcia]

Hi Paul.
Me?... I just got myself a 21 speed racing bike… guess what? I leave your V12 car standing in city traffic every time, and because I am moving, I don’t need air-con…