Challenge: 1 Meter wide shot with a coke + i/2 US Dollar bill! :)

[Klaus Esser]

Let's See Which System is Really the Best in Practice!

A 22MP back is much better than 120 film, don't listen to Klaus, he is a romantic --like most germans-- and wants film to survive, but it is kaputt... (I mean, film)

Harr, harr . . !

Leo - should we start a contest ?

You using your 22MP and i use a 6x17 . . . ok: let´s say 6x9, 50ASA Velvia drumscanned at 2000dpi?
Comparable motives? Landscape? Romantic landscape i mean ;-) . . Let´s go!

best, Klaus

 

[leonardobarreto.com]

ok, we can shoot something that you can find in germany, I think that we could use a $1 US dolar. Place the dolar in the center of a one meter by one meter cardboard and shoot the entire meter by meter (or 80cm x 100m) and after we post a 100% of the dollar bill.

The winner gets the two Dollars...

Tell me if you want to change the parameters of the experiment.

... other people could also send their "tests"

but today I realized that for some reason Public School No.3 has no class, so I have to baby sit my 5-year-old son Robertito....

ah, you said 6 x 7 remember.

this is the text:
Originally Posted by Klaus Esser
". . when it is of good enough quality to rival 67 film at large print sizes."

it´s not.

best, Klaus"

Take care Klaus, Leonardo


..

 

[Klaus Esser]

Hi Leo!

Ahh . . that´s boring with the dollar - not that i think, Dollars are boring, NO WAY ;-) - but i don´t like "flat" motives. Reminds me of photographing test-chards . .

let me think it over . . . .

best, klaus

 

[leonardobarreto.com]

I agree, and also I want you to be happy about the "weapons and court" for our duel, so that the results are not questioned after. The problem is that we need something of the same size.

Anyway, I'm very happy this minute because I came back from my lab with 8 4x5 C-negs that I shot the day before for my personal project. Remember I was shooting 6x9 with a 100mm 4 elements Schneider? well, this is 4x5/160ISO/180mm Fujinon-W/ and it looks focused and sharp. I have to go to the lab and make 20x24 inch diptychs.

This is probably how my project should go for the rest of the summer, the lens is just good, the format is even better because of the proportions and the only thing that I need now is about 20 to 30 images of passing by large ships so that in the fall I can see if the idea works...

take care

 

[Klaus Esser]

I agree, and also I want you to be happy about the "weapons and court" for our duel, so that the results are not questioned after. The problem is that we need something of the same size.

Anyway, I'm very happy this minute because I came back from my lab with 8 4x5 C-negs that I shot the day before for my personal project. Remember I was shooting 6x9 with a 100mm 4 elements Schneider? well, this is 4x5/160ISO/180mm Fujinon-W/ and it looks focused and sharp. I have to go to the lab and make 20x24 inch diptychs.

This is probably how my project should go for the rest of the summer, the lens is just good, the format is even better because of the proportions and the only thing that I need now is about 20 to 30 images of passing by large ships so that in the fall I can see if the idea works...

take care

Hi Leo!

I would like to see more of your ship-series! Fine idea!

btw: i sometimes use a noise-reduction on analogue scans (drumscans can be very crisp . . ) - Imagenomic´s "NoisewareProfessional".
very good IF (!) grain is a bit harsh. Carefully used it is abolutely ok.

best, Klaus

 

[Michael_Stones]

I'd love to see results from this contest, whatever you guys decide to photograph. But as well as drum scanning, which is expensive, please also compare scans with something like an Epson 4990 that a nonprofessional enthusiast like me can afford.
Cheers, Mike

 

[Asher Kelman]

Damn this nonsense guys! Everything can be and probably has been used for good and evil!

Motor cars can be ambulances or tanks. Knives can be used for cooking or murder. Men can be brave and selfless or sinisiter and destructive. Radiation can cure cancer. Millions of people are helped this way. French and many communities rely on the same forces to produce their needed electricity. Then there was Chenobyl and of course Hiroshima.

The dollar fed British hungry and other famiies in world war II and afterwards. Without the dollar, we would not have received flower, egg powder and oil by which our dirt-poor family of 10 survived in the bombed ruins of British cities.

The dollar provided food to Nigerians everywhere I went to small communities. The markets even recycled them, stolen or not! That food has sustained many distressed people all over the world.

The village wells and the grants to women in Bangladesh that allow them to be funded to empower them to save their own daughters and families from the cycles of poverty, are based on the gifts of the American dollar.

I challenge the community to depart from the infectious idea of the "evil US dollar".

So to show we are not erruptively predjudiced, let's use the ubiquitous US dollar for our samples. BTW, add the words FAKE NOT CURRENCY so you are not charged with illegal activity and only submit the left half of your image!

Who will accept the challenge?

Asher

 

[Klaus Esser]

I'd love to see results from this contest, whatever you guys decide to photograph. But as well as drum scanning, which is expensive, please also compare scans with something like an Epson 4990 that a nonprofessional enthusiast like me can afford.
Cheers, Mike

The point is to compare one high-end with the other! You can´t honestly compare a high-end digital back and a mid-range flatbedscanner . . that is what happens by far too often in the web.
And then conclusions are made of "analogue´s inferiority" . .

No - that simply would not be fair! Leo and i will see it as a pleasure and fun, i´m sure!

best, Klaus

 

[Michael_Stones]

Ok, have fun guys. I'm eagerly awaiting the outcome

 

[Ray West]

Are we experimenting, to show that a 22MP back is better than 120 film? Is that all? How about lens, lighting, area of film v sensor active area, etc. What is 'better'?

Maybe something to bring out the advantage of film over digital, and vice versa, then gradually home in on the areas where they are about equal.

No answers, just questions.

Best wishes,

Ray

 

[leonardobarreto.com]

What I could do is to shoot with the Mamiya and the PhaseOne AND THEN put the 120 film holder and shoot film, -- this will be good for comparison because I would be using same lens, samel lighting, same depth of field.

But I have no scanner... and it is only 6x4.5 format...

 

[Ray West]

Hi Leonardo,

That would be interesting, but you'd have to scan it, I guess, or perhaps you just print both and we rely on your assessment. If you have a bigger film area, then the focussing can be more precise, and I think I may be wrong, but the lens need not be so critical. For example - Jack showed a pinhole lf print here recently. I think the pinhole needs to be smaller to get a similar effect on a smaller sensor area, and then you get other stuff happening. I think the fair way, to see how it may develop, is to use the same size sensor/film area, but, if ever a 10 by 8 digital back is made, I expect the cost of the first few will be pretty expensive ;-). A scanning back could be easier. At the moment film is by far the cheapest quality option for many subjects, but stitched digital will give better results for selected subjects. I think this is the nub of the problem, chose the right tool for the job, if you have a choice.

Best wishes,

Ray

 

[Klaus Esser]

"I think this is the nub of the problem, chose the right tool for the job, if you have a choice."

thatá absolutely correct!! Besides: it´s not of real importance, wether film is better or digital is better.
But it would be fun - at least i see it this way - to compare and argue a bit

A fact simply is, that very few people compared a digishot directly to an analogue shot which is scanned on a drumscannner. The difference in quality - sharpness and dynamic - is evident!
Therefore the only honest comparing is hightech here/hightech there. Scanning a film on a flatbet or even a filmscanner is NO hightech.

And therefore not acceptable . . ;-) - remember: it´s unimportand how many people have a drumscanner or not - not many people have a 22MPx-back either . . . . .

best, Klaus

 

[leonardobarreto.com]

That is why we should try to do our best on one side and someone with high in the learning curve hill of film/scanning --like Klaus Esser should do the other side, and then we post here and all members can judge for themselves.

I agree with Klaus. There are many things to consider to find the "optimum" photographic system, and what may work for you may not for me. The same applies even for a particular assignment (one example is that I'm using digital to work and 4x5 C-neg for my personal project). It is case by case.

We are talking about best-to-best, and/or if money is no problem --and if you are lucky enough to have a drum-scanner, --like Klaus-- and just for fun to see how this two methods compare.

I propose to do the Dollar test first, just to compare the two in a "flat 2d target type" comparison. I agree, again, that there should be other ways, for example, in the ZD "handsdown" review http://www.doorhof.nl/blog/index.php...sg3225#msg3225 the author talk about noticing a 3D-like effect in the MF camera that he did not see in the Canon 5D (confusing the 3D and 5D, no?) So, the question could be: Is there a difference in "look" or "bouquet" in a 4x5 as opposed to DMF? but how do you test for this?

Maybe we can ask everybody to do the "standard" test to see the resolution of all kinds of equipment and lens/sensor or lens film combination.

It could be what I originally proposed of using something that we can find all over the world -- It is NOT about the Dollar, and we can leave politics to other time -- and put it in a one meter square and shoot that the best way one can, and after post the center part where the dollar bill will be...

I know this would not prove everything, but it is easy and will prove SOME things. (I know, it is boring target shooting)

I will work on mine next week.

So. This is a pre-announced "preemptive test"...

 

[Ray West]

If we are talking about 'the best we can do', I guess the final destination would be for printing. How about, you take your photo of the dollar, then print it same size, then retake again, beside the original. Depending who made the original, the ink may be smudged ;-) Thinking of other common targets, how about a square yard of lawn, taken from say 10 yards distance, the moon, coke cans/bottles?

Best wishes,

Ray

 

[Klaus Esser]

"coke cans/bottles?" That´s a good idea! I´ll do it in my backyard this weekend. On 6x9, with the Fuji G 690 and 100mm/3,5 Fujinon (that´s an old, Leica-type camera) and a Wista with 6x9 Filmback from Linhof and a Sinaron 150mm/5,6 and a Symmar 135mm/5,6.

row of 6 - 8 bottles and cans, background is a plant-covered wall. Light is soft daylight, no direct sunlight.
the objects will be in the center with some space arround.

Film is 50ASA Velvia or 64ASA Kodak EPR, f16 - RGB-scanned at 2000dpi with gel on a Howtek D4000 drumscanner, software is Polaris 3,7.

best, Klaus

 

[Asher Kelman]

Karl,

The bottles and cans are great! I wonder, could youtape a dollar, the side with a large ONE and have the left side Egyptian type pyramid in view! That will give a standard for fine detail.

Asher

 

[leonardobarreto.com]

Ok, so coke cans. I think that the bottles may change in size, no? anyway, get a dollar and trow it in Klaus.

__"objects will be in the center with some space arround."

Lets say that the entire "stage" should be one meter wide. And whatever you get of hight.

Deal..



"coke cans/bottles?" That´s a good idea! I´ll do it in my backyard this weekend. On 6x9, with the Fuji G 690 and 100mm/3,5 Fujinon (that´s an old, Leica-type camera) and a Wista with 6x9 Filmback from Linhof and a Sinaron 150mm/5,6 and a Symmar 135mm/5,6.

row of 6 - 8 bottles and cans, background is a plant-covered wall. Light is soft daylight, no direct sunlight.
the objects will be in the center with some space arround.

Film is 50ASA Velvia or 64ASA Kodak EPR, f16 - RGB-scanned at 2000dpi with gel on a Howtek D4000 drumscanner, software is Polaris 3,7.

best, Klaus

 

[leonardobarreto.com]

Ok, so coke cans. I think that the bottles may change in size, no? anyway, get a dollar and trow it in Klaus. Also include a ruler or other tape measure fro reference to size of the objects and the entire "scene".

__"objects will be in the center with some space arround."

Lets say that the entire "stage" should be one meter wide. And whatever you get of hight.

Deal..



"coke cans/bottles?" That´s a good idea! I´ll do it in my backyard this weekend. On 6x9, with the Fuji G 690 and 100mm/3,5 Fujinon (that´s an old, Leica-type camera) and a Wista with 6x9 Filmback from Linhof and a Sinaron 150mm/5,6 and a Symmar 135mm/5,6.

row of 6 - 8 bottles and cans, background is a plant-covered wall. Light is soft daylight, no direct sunlight.
the objects will be in the center with some space arround.

Film is 50ASA Velvia or 64ASA Kodak EPR, f16 - RGB-scanned at 2000dpi with gel on a Howtek D4000 drumscanner, software is Polaris 3,7.

best, Klaus

 

[leonardobarreto.com]

Invitation

Anyone that wants to join us in the "Target Shoot Open Tournament" you are welcome to do so, after all, what are summers for?

 

[nicolas claris]

Some fun to come!
Leonardo can you summarize the set-up so that anyone could reproduce?

BTW, at 1st time it would be interesting that shots displayed doesn't show the camera/lens use in the caption, nor in Exif so one cannot be disturbed by the subjective opinion about different techniques...

I have a friend that may lend me some interesting gear to try there...

 

[Klaus Esser]

coming to speak of MF - here´s a 6x17. Full and 100%, one with slight noisedamping. I find that interestin, because with digital, noisedamping is
a standard.
You think you get this crop from a P25 in the same resolution? ;-)

bst, Klaus

 

[leonardobarreto.com]

Klaus, Can you help me define the final parameters of the contest?

Correct me if I'm wrong:

*Open, anyone can post "Target Shooting Images"
*Just do your best, if film or digital. Use your best lens scanner etc.
*The field should be one meter by one meter (for americans is 39.37007 inch if I am not mistaken)
What I mean for this is that you place a ruler that measures one meter and cover this with the wide side of your format, or "constrained to one meter".
* Include at least one standard Coca Cola can, one stretched 1$ US (sorry, I can't get a Euro note, but I guess if there is a request we could do it with that, I can go to the bank and buy one)
* Use any lighting that you think will give you the best results, flash, sun, whatever.
* Process Raw in the best way you can
* We will post just the part of the can/dollar and posters will be the judge.
* The arbiter could be Asher or Stephen Eastwood, the moderator of the forum.

So this is the draft of final rules... lets wait for Klaus so that we can be 100% agreed before we start...

 

[Asher Kelman]

Great, just use the left half of the dollar bill with the pyramid showing. In the USA, an entire banknote shot is a cause for an FBI visit!

I've moved this to an new Challenge thread! Let's have final comments and we'll start!

Asher

 

[KrisCarnmarker]

Anyone that wants to join us in the "Target Shoot Open Tournament" you are welcome to do so, after all, what are summers for?

Over here, summers are for staying indoors

This should be very interesting. And I like that's its being done with tongue-in-cheek. Can't wait for the results! Happy shooting guys.

 

[Klaus Esser]

Klaus, Can you help me define the final parameters of the contest?

Correct me if I'm wrong:

*Open, anyone can post "Target Shooting Images"
*Just do your best, if film or digital. Use your best lens scanner etc.
*The field should be one meter by one meter (for americans is 39.37007 inch if I am not mistaken)
What I mean for this is that you place a ruler that measures one meter and cover this with the wide side of your format, or "constrained to one meter".
* Include at least one standard Coca Cola can, one stretched 1$ US (sorry, I can't get a Euro note, but I guess if there is a request we could do it with that, I can go to the bank and buy one)
* Use any lighting that you think will give you the best results, flash, sun, whatever.
* Process Raw in the best way you can
* We will post just the part of the can/dollar and posters will be the judge.
* The arbiter could be Asher or Stephen Eastwood, the moderator of the forum.

So this is the draft of final rules... lets wait for Klaus so that we can be 100% agreed before we start...

YES! Great! Good ideas, Leonardo! Let´s go

best, KLaus

 

[Asher Kelman]

Challenge Officially Open: here's the rules!

• Open, anyone can post "Target Shooting Images"
• Just do your best, if film or digital. Use your best lens scanner etc.
• The field should be one meter by one meter (for americans is 39.37007 inch if I am not mistaken)
• What I mean for this is that you place a ruler that measures one meter and cover this with the wide side of your format, or "constrained to one meter".
• Include at least one regular, non diet- standard Coca Cola can, one Left half of a stretched 1$ US note, the side with the ONE on it
• Use any lighting that you think will give you the best results, flash, sun, whatever.
• Process Raw in the best way you can
• We will post just the part of the can/dollar and posters will be the judge.
• The arbiter could be Asher or Stephen Eastwood, the moderator of the forum
• Post 800 pixels wide jpg as well as 800 pixel wide 100% cut outs
• keep the orignal RAW files our sharing.

Good luck, everone, let the games begin

Asher

 

[leonardobarreto.com]

Ohh no, it is all very serious... (and scientific too)

 

[Ray West]

Ohh no, it is all very serious... (and scientific too)

Hi Leonardo,

Don't count their chickens, until they cross your bridges ;-)

Best wishes,

Ray

 

[Michael Fontana]

Klaus

can you provide a stitch of the same test-scenario, generatet with your DSLR and a good lens?

@all: for further comparison, I suggest a additional shot with your DSLR and a 50 mm. This will allow to relate the test and giving it a higher value.

Thanks