Challenge: Guns4us: lifesavers, peacemakers or murderers? Do you have images on this?

[Jack_Flesher]

Good point Asher -- make the white pool blood red, and you altered the image significantly from my "product shot" to a perhaps controversial sociological statement, and in so doing probably better "art" ...

Maybe something like this?:

 

[Michael_Stones]

Michael, my friend, the gun is just as much a part of society as poverty.

Asher

Here's where our difference lies, Asher. I've never knowingly known anyone with a handgun outside the police and military. I've never seen an unholstered handgun outside museums or US gunshops. So the handgun, which unlike the hunting rifle is for killing people, has never been part of any society I inhabited. And I bet that's true for the vast majority of people in Canada, western Europe, and most other places born after WW2. Incomprehension is unsettling and often leads to emotional attributions (e.g., Are they nuts or what?). Hence the reason for my reactions in this thread.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Jack,

With the extra change, the the gun is thrust into a social arena. It challenges us whether we like it or not. We think of social value and consequences with risks and benefits.

Now we move beyond the remarkable workmanship and handsome finish. As with Eric's orginal, your new new "version" does not take sides. However the gun is for sure out of the policeman's holster and it interviews us. When that happens, in my personal opinion, we can feel more confidently that we might enter the realm of art.

Asher

 

[Asher Kelman]

Whenever a work (be it by engraving, scribbling, moving in dance or photographing to name a few), causes us to react (emote, evoke feelings, ideas and trains of thought), that effort becomes relevant to us. It may even has significance for our future. The best art is not, in my opinion that which is technically perfect, although that, in itself is remarkable. The best art must be that which entertains, informs and perhaps even enjoins us to submit ideas to the cauldron of debate.

I am not promoting the idea that a sculpture of cubes or a photograph of a girl in lingerie should impress social values!

However, when we are dealing with human creativity with new consequences, art can play an important social role. That's how we can test our culture and ourselves and that can become the highest level of art, be it literature, dance or photography.

I'll quote:

Let’s also remember the Rabelais sentence:

Science sans conscience n’est que ruine de l’âme
Something like “Science without consciousness is only ruin of the soul“

Background on Francois Rabelais

In brief, this whole thread is satisfying since it shows effort to make impactful photographs and the extra steps to get them to be memorable. I personally am enriched by every photograph I have seen. Let's have more!

Thanks for making this place work!

Asher

 

[Asher Kelman]

Actually, the real "art" here is in being able to hit the intended target with your first shot --- even if that target relatively small and 500 meters away...

And of course, a proper tool is required:

~~~


5D, 50mm lens, f2.8. A 5 minute set-up using single strobe and strategically placed reflectors.

Cheers,

I like the attempt to move way beyond catalog shots. Here the coke can implies that. Perhaps a gun target practice. Not very threatening to me when I see the cola! If there was a sheet of pasper with a picture of a person and a smart leather suitcase that might contain the gun, then it would have a sinister meaning.

As it is the picture does not seem complete, even though I like its attempt. (You are kind for allowing me to be blunt as opposed to saying everything is wonderful, but even to see two love-making adults saying "I love you!" over and over and over again, without conflct, would get boring and yes, we'd watch a while but then walk away!LOL!)

I have major questions about the actual placement of the coke can as it would be composionally more powerful with the coke can in the background on the left slighly out of focus and a say two bullets to the left of where the coke can now is placed, perhaps even far forward. Further, once again, my own personal grievence against photography teachers, tons more empty space would make the picture so much more powerful. We live after all in world with context.

When did you make this picture and what did it mean to you at the time?

Asher

 

[Jack_Flesher]

When did you make this picture and what did it mean to you at the time?

I made it in my garage yesterday right after you asked for more images relevant to the subject... I already had the Coke can target, so literally threw it on the cloth and photographed it. My intent was to add to this thread the "art" involved in mastery of the weapon itself. Indeed being able to hit a soda can at 500 meters with your first shot requires well beyond average marksmanship skills, ranging skills (reading wind and other atmospheric conditions that affect the flight path of the projectile) and a better than casual understanding of ballistics -- as well as a "well beyond average" tool to execute those skills with... As for placement of the can and use of a single round: The Coke can was the target and is the main focal point in the image. The weapon used is ancillary, but shown to indicate a specialized tool was used. The single hole in the can along with the single round of ammo reinforces the fact that only "one shot" was required to accomplish the task. While likely not appreciated or understood here in OPF, the term "one shot" has significant meaning in the shooting world...

Cheers,

 

[Asher Kelman]

I made it in my garage yesterday right after you asked for more images relevant to the subject... I already had the Coke can target, so literally threw it on the cloth and photographed it. My intent was to add to this thread the "art" in mastery of the wepon itself. Indeed being able to hit a soda can at 500 meters with your first shot requires well beyond average marksmanship skills as well as a well beyond average tool...

Cheers,

Got it!

Guess what, I didn't notice the bullet hole until you mentioned it! Come to think of it I now remember going to the woods near Rochester, New York to join a friend being shown how to fire a gun he was buying from this policeman.

Well they set up coke cans on some rocks and then my friend fired the gun and missed about 6 shots.
I said it's like lining up an instrument say an opthalmascope and it should be straightforward. So, of course the gun was placed in my hand.

I lined up the barrel, aimed and it fired. "Boom!" much to my surprise, bashing back my whole arm and shoulder. I really had no style and was pretty aweful, I thought. Well that was that! I returned the gun, rather embarassed at my performance and being a "know it all".

It turned out I hit the can with my one shot. I did not ever fire a gun either before or since then. After all, I can only do worse!

Back to your picture, now, even more reason to put the can to one side and forwarward to focus clearly on the bullet hole, since that is the beginning and end of the story, the internal "Arc of Intent", so to speak!

Thanks for taking the extra effort! That's responsive for sure!

Asher

 

[Will_Perlis]

Taken during a very depressed moment.

 

[Nikolai Sklobovsky]

Taken during a very depressed moment.

Now THAT's scary!

 

[Asher Kelman]

That, Will, is awefully awesome! What on earth happened to the camera?

Asher

 

[Will_Perlis]

Asher,

The camera and I survived with no problem. I had mentioned, in another venue, once being depressed enough to stare down the barrel of a loaded gun with the safety off at 3am, waiting for my thumb to twitch. Someone asked what that looked like. The picture is the result.

 

[Ivan Garcia]

Will.
I am very relieved your thumb did not twitch; I enjoy your pictures and posts very much.
Next time depression shows its ugly head, try to think of all the people you make happy thru your images.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Will.
I am very relieved your thumb did not twitch; I enjoy your pictures and posts very much.
Next time depression shows its ugly head, try to think of all the people you make happy thru your images.

I thought the red around the bullet was the detonation of the bullet!

Asher

 

[Will_Perlis]

Ah! That's the light reflecting off the copper of the bullet jacket contrasted with the lead in the center. I have seen pictures of actual firings into mirrors where it looked like the camera was aligned with the bore. That's not a good technique for apartment dwellers tho'.

 

[Eric Hiss]

Jack,
You are right about the pistol. It was loaded - so probably living a little dangerously. I've never shot it, but there is a target range very close to my studio in Richmond so one day I'll go out and play with it.

Asher and Jack,
Interesting to see how you interpret the stripe in the composition. I like my version better and didn't plan on the stripe meaning anything other than the picture looked a little plain without it.

Will,
Glad you are still with us

Eric

 

[Asher Kelman]

Jack,
You are right about the pistol. It was loaded - so probably living a little dangerously. I've never shot it, but there is a target range very close to my studio in Richmond so one day I'll go out and play with it.

Asher and Jack,
Interesting to see how you interpret the stripe in the composition. I like my version better and didn't plan on the stripe meaning anything other than the picture looked a little plain without it.

Will,
Glad you are still with us

Eric

Eric,

There is not even a single word that does not include a metaphor and drawings are not unloaded either. How did you make the line?

asher

 

[Eric Hiss]

Eric,

There is not even a single word that does not include a metaphor and drawings are not unloaded either. How did you make the line?

asher

Hi Asher,
I have a 4x8 foot foam board with Rosco gun metal color metalic film stuck to it that I use for backdrops in the studio. I thought it might make a good background since it was the 'right' color and has a distorted reflection which I thought would be interesting. The stripes are reflections of red fabric hanging on a wall in my studio. I put the foam on the table, the gun on the foam and just moved things around to get the composition I wanted. I forget what lighting I used but it appears I used a hard light pretty close and behind the subject and a softer one from the front. I'm almost certain I used a profoto magnum reflector with grid in the back. Hard to say what I had in the front. The image was taken with my Leica DMR with a 60mm macro elmarit lens - probably hand held.

Eric

 

[Asher Kelman]

The image was taken with my Leica DMR with a 60mm macro elmarit lens - probably hand held.

Thanks Eric, it's so helpful to get to know how images are created. I like how you used things you already have.

The reflective surface is effective. The red line, perfect.

Now the picture is done, you can only do worse! I'd sell off that Profoto Magnum while it still has some value!

Asher

 

[Eric Hiss]

I'll still need those Profoto's

Yeah Asher you know too well I have to let go of a bunch of my gear. But the profoto Magnum reflector is not something I'm selling or my D4 power pack. These are too handy. I might sell that 7 foot profoto umbrella though. Hardly use it. Who knows maybe I'll sell the gun in the picture too? It's never been fired, but the trigger is getting rusty.

Well the gear comes and goes. Sold the 60mm macro elmarit that picture was taken with and later bought another one, which I just sold today.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Yeah Asher you know too well I have to let go of a bunch of my gear. But the profoto Magnum reflector is not something I'm selling or my D4 power pack.

Just was thinking!!

Who knows maybe I'll sell the gun in the picture too? It's never been fired, but the trigger is getting rusty.

Now if you do sell the gun and it is used to stop and child rapist or assasinate a store keeper will it be the same gun and how would you then photograph the gun? Would you set it up any differently. Express pride or disgust or is it just the same gun, give or take a few milli-micrograms of barrel dust?

Sold the 60mm macro elmarit that picture was taken with and later bought another one, which I just sold today.

Here, when you re buy your lens back from a major photogrphic legend would you now keep it for ever? Say the lens used to photograph Jon Lennon? Does such a lens change?

IOW the concept of human values attached to the gun or a lens? Do you do that, assign human values to inaminate objects.

We do it to National Symbols, such as flags!

Asher

 

[Asher Kelman]

Yeah Asher you know too well I have to let go of a bunch of my gear. But the profoto Magnum reflector is not something I'm selling or my D4 power pack.

Just was thinking!!

Who knows maybe I'll sell the gun in the picture too? It's never been fired, but the trigger is getting rusty.

Now if you do sell the gun and it is used to stop and child rapist or assasinate a store keeper will it be the same gun and how would you then photograph the gun? Would you set it up any differently. Express pride or disgust or is it just the same gun, give or take a few milli-micrograms of barrel dust?

Sold the 60mm macro elmarit that picture was taken with and later bought another one, which I just sold today.

Here, when you re buy your lens back from a major photogrphic legend would you now keep it for ever? Say the lens used to photograph Jon Lennon? Does such a lens change?

IOW the concept of human values attached to the gun or a lens? Do you do that, assign human values to inanimate objects.

We do it to National Symbols, such as flags!

Asher

 

[nicolas claris]

Do you do that, assign human values to inanimate objects.

We do it to National Symbols, such as flags!

Asher

Not everybody!

I much prefer European flag than mine (French) and would be so happy with a Planet flag! Yes still flag, but worldwide! wow! can't we dream a bit?

I am desesperately optimistic! the only way to go forward, otherwise we all just can use that horrible but well caught gun by will.

There it comes to make all the difference between a marketing shot (I mean that is only flattering design/light curved and straight lines, without real intent - to please the eye only. And NO, this is not enough with such a subject) as the one on the original post (sorry, please forgive me Nikolaï) with the one by Will that had (thanks to past!) a real lived will(ness) (word play intend)…

Yes! photography is a real weapon, doesn't kill but disarm!

Did I say Will's post did make my mind completely upside down? Thanks to my gene (are these genes?) that made be optimistic… c'mon Will keep on work your photography.

 

[Eric Hiss]

Asher,
When you know something about an object - like a gun that was used to kill, or a camera that took a picture, then you at least know that thing was effective at one time but does it still work? But that knowledge is in your head. I mean someone not privileged to the history will not value that object any differently. Why should I?

Now if I personally used a camera/lens or other tool to win success then I might cherish it. I don't really value celebrities - I value what they did. So while I might appreciate a movie or book that someone made, having their autograph or one of their tools isn't going to get me all giddy. Maybe if I had more disposable income, and I could afford to buy and use say Fredrick Cheney Johnstons old century view camera I might be a smidge more happy and I would certainly advertise that I was using it for marketing purposes. But of course the camera does come with the vision and talent of its former owners. No gear comes with that.
Eric

 

[Jack_Flesher]

Jack,
You are right about the pistol. It was loaded - so probably living a little dangerously. I've never shot it, but there is a target range very close to my studio in Richmond so one day I'll go out and play with it.

Hi Eric:

Not pointing fingers at you specifically, but your action is one of the main reasons fatal and self-inflicted accidents with guns occur -- lack of knowledge in how to handle a firearm safely. And Will's post is the same...

Handling any weapon in such a casual manner as you both show here, would never be tolerrated by any experienced marksman or firearms group.

My advice is for anybody not familiar with firearms to take a firearms safety class and learn respect for a loaded weapon. More importantly teach your children better than you were taught so when they are placed in a situation involving a firearm, they'll know how to respond more safely.

Best,

 

[nicolas claris]

More importanlty teach your children better than you were taught so when they are placed in a situation involving a firearm, they'll know how to respond more safely.

Best,

Why don't you buy one for their 1st birthday! Yes a Colt for a one year baby, that's nice :-(

 

[Asher Kelman]

Yes! photography is a real weapon, doesn't kill but disarm!

Just like a gun, photography can damage, humiliate and exploit, promote antisocial ideas and violence.

As I have said before:

"Civilization, like steps to a courthouse, is just a hope and a wish, not necessarily deliverence from evil!"....one of my sayings

Photography provides choices for fun, creativty and enlightenment.

The gun, for now, is a fence between civilization and the animal that cannot be likely tamed.

Photography 85% worthwhile, guns 75%!

Asher

 

[nicolas claris]

Just like a gun, photography can damage, humiliate and exploit, promote antisocial ideas and violence.

You're right!
but

humiliate and exploit, promote antisocial ideas and violence

is not death.

One can survive to photography, not to a bullet shot between the eyes…

 

[Jack_Flesher]

Why don't you buy one for their 1st birthday! Yes a Colt for a one year baby, that's nice :-(

Actually each of my children were taught how to use (and properly respect) a firearm beginning at 5 years old. Of course that was the introduction and the lessons continued well into their teenage years. But by the time they each learned to drive, they were fully capable of proper handling a firearm on their own. And of course they can also hit their intended target reliably

Cheers,

 

[nicolas claris]

Hooops!
sorry, not one year old, that is really too young!

Five years old, these kids (almost men!) are ready to face the World with a gun in each hand…
That's nice way to grow and respect each other in the world. Real cow boys!

At the beginning of this thread, you said you couldn't understand why someone (me) could hate arms.

I must admit you were right! I don't hate arms, I hate what poor men can do with weapons.
That's a HUGE difference!

This make me think to the young boys in Pakistan, repeating the Coran for hours, moving back and forth… forced by adults.

Leave the children have a children life!

 

[KrisCarnmarker]

Photography 85% worthwhile, guns 75%!

From the National Center for Injury Prevention and Control
Firearm-Related Death by Type
1989–1998

Method Used​

Frequency (%)​

Homicide​

31.9​

Legal Intervention​

0.6​

Suicide​

45.8​

Unintentional​

18.4​

Undetermined Intent/Other​

3.2​

So, guns for the purpose of protecting us from madmen constitutes a whopping 0.6 percent! Nice!