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coming home from school

Charlotte Thompson

Well-known member
children on the side walk coming home from school- my outing- first real street scene
four o'clock sun- d40 35mm sb600 flash-




DSC_0772.jpg




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DSC_0786-1.jpg
 

John Angulat

pro member
Hi Charlotte,
Before any comments or help can be offered, I think we need to know some technical details behind the images. There's no exif info associated with the images, so we don't know aperature, shutter, lens, program mode, etc.
I'm assumming the exif was lost in whatever editing was done. Can you re-post the original images (downsized of course) so we can take a peek?
 

Charlotte Thompson

Well-known member
John Hi

well ok then- I did say- four o'clock sun- d40 35mm sb600 flash-

mode-sports
ISO auto
F 5.6

the images of course in color with little cropping-
kids coming out of school-I, in my car-
what more do you need-?

Charlotte-
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Sins taught by Gurus! The evils of framing too tight.

John Hi

well ok then- I did say- four o'clock sun- d40 35mm sb600 flash-

mode-sports
ISO auto
F 5.6

the images of course in color with little cropping-
kids coming out of school-I, in my car-
what more do you need-?

Charlotte-
Hi Charlotte,

Three issues: stripping Exif, Blown out sky and cropping too tight to lose the limbs:

Exif: It's a great idea to not strip the EXIF and in fact one should use Photshop, Lightroom or other program to add to that, in the IPTC file, your © information and license info. Hopefully a company with money will steal your picture and you can collect. Seriously, we look at much more in the EXIF, like color space date, ISO, shutter speed for example. This often answers questions we might have.

Blown out sky: Here, especially one would ask, "Did the flash fire?" It would with fill in flash and that would allow you to shoot light the children well but not over-expose the sky.

In the case of these wonderful happy images, #s 1 and 3 I like, we'd like to know what was going on. This is where auto is a problem. With such a cute shot as the first with back lit hair, I'd have stopped for 2-3 seconds to take a shot with correct exposure for the sky, so it could be swapped in. Or else, simply expose for the scene and use fill in flash for the children.

Don't listen to the Gurus! I plead for wider shots.

Closely framed photography is for the
few experienced enthusiasts and the pros and other experienced shooters who really know what the final image must be. Wedding, product and fashion photographers simply know what they have to deliver as second nature.

If you look at Nicolas Claris' work, for example, that's generally just what he shot, and no less. However, it's a developed skill to do that. If your shot of the children is valuable to you, then you must safeguard the essence of it and be generous to yourself in how you frame. Of course, you should still practice exact framing, but do that with a session just for that.

Why should you have the ability, in shot's #s 1 nd 3 to catch special moments so well yet cut off parts of the limbs with no reference to any artistic idea I can fathom! This, I think comes from the general teaching of "framing closely and cropping even tighter". With our megapixel chips, we might better frame wider and then take one's time to study more what constitutes a completed composition.

Asher
 

Charlotte Thompson

Well-known member
Asher

you bring up some great points - these as I said were taken in my car so the crop I did was parts of the car door only- an experiment in street photos- was in a bad spot with the sun right in front of me- I was in a car line waiting to pick up Parker from school and had my Nikon in the car so I merely tried my hand at this-for sure I am going to do more with this new thing for me-
I shoot for art and haven't really as yet concerned myself with exif- but I am learning- I do understand there is more to the art than the shot- I am learning-we have some great teachers at opf-beautiful gifted artists- hopefully as I go along I will get better and better because I so desire to be that gifted in photography-thank you for the help I truly do appreciate you-

Charlotte-
 

Bill Miller

New member
Charlotte,
It seems that many of the photos your asking for C&C on are similar, as these are. It there a particular style that your trying to achieve? Have you seen another photographers work that you like and are trying to emulate? If this is the case, do you have a sample of their work.

Be careful taking photos of kids, unless you have the permission of their parents. The school probably has a policy against photographing on school property. That is just the atmosphere in todays world.
 

Charlotte Thompson

Well-known member
Bill

well I guess I have become aware of that now-thanks to you- whats this world coming to anyway! geesh-thank you for the heads up!
My fav photographer is Annie Leibovitz- not so much her now glamour shots but her people "normal or some well known- her "Women" series is beautiful I dont try to imulate any one but I love leibovitiz style- I look at alot of photographers work
one who actually used to post here-Immants Krumin- I really love his work as well-catches a good shot of expressions in our humanity and his bandw are truly beautiful-this is a addy for Krumins work-

http://www.etrouko.com.au/?goto=portfolio


Charlotte-
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Bill

well I guess I have become aware of that now-thanks to you- whats this world coming to anyway! geesh-thank you for the heads up!
My fav photographer is Annie Leibovitz- not so much her now glamour shots but her people "normal or some well known- her "Women" series is beautiful I dont try to imulate any one but I love leibovitiz style- I look at alot of photographers work
one who actually used to post here-Immants Krumin- I really love his work as well-catches a good shot of expressions in our humanity and his bandw are truly beautiful-this is a addy for Krumins work-

http://www.etrouko.com.au/?goto=portfolio
Hi Charlotte,

Both these photographers seem to heavily on staging and or else a lot of post processing and or retouch.

Imants K just posted here recently and I was the only one who replied. We must pay attention. This is so important to encourage such artists to post more. By missing his new posts, the false impression might be given that no one besides Asher is much innterested!

His post is here

Asher
 

Charlotte Thompson

Well-known member
Asher-

I respect your opinion in regards to these artists but do love them and many more of course
these are just 2 who impress me- their captures and colorings for me are truly amazing-
I am glad to know that Immants has posted and I will go check it out-thanks for telling me
I try hard to get with all that I can and I do but just is impossible to get to all as you know too-

Charlotte-
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
"What's compelling about this picture to me?" Can we answer that?

Charlotte: What do YOU find compelling about these images?

We diverted attention to the obvious technical shortcomings. Thanks, Ken for bringing in the concept of a pictures worth to the photographer and why it's presented. I stand corrected for spending energy on the secondary matters like technique.

"What do YOU find compelling about these images?"

This primary question should be engraved in everyone's mind.

And let me say that I could give a whit about technique and craft if the image is compelling. We may not be prepared, schooled or able to fathom its importance. So, at the very least, it must be compelling for the photographer.

Then showing the one picture with at least one impressive concept or reasoning might allow us to "get it" too.
 

Charlotte Thompson

Well-known member
Ken

what do I find compelling-and thank you for asking such a glorious question!

I went back visually and also in a tactile mode with these- I even caught the scent of who I used to be with these school children-
I remembered walking home" the scent of the air even the warmth of the sun my freedom as innocent as it was- how happy I was to be alive-just as these precious children were "so was I in that time of innocence"
I was this girl and still find that girl beats in my heart-the shots actually compelled me to be more just the way a child is-

me- a visual of then- a memory-

DSC_1140-3.jpg
 

nicolas claris

OPF Co-founder/Administrator
If you look at Nicolas Claris' work, for example, that's generally just what he shot, and no less. However, it's a developed skill to do that. If your shot of the children is valuable to you, then you must safeguard the essence of it and be generous to yourself in how you frame. Of course, you should still practice exact framing, but do that with a session just for that.

Thank you for your kind words toward my work Asher, but let me disagree with you!

Wether the photographer is a pro or a beginner, doesn't change anything about framing, imho.
Framing (large or close) is one of the main important thing in photography.
One have to know what one wants to include or exclude in/of the frame. Because this is the PHOTOGRAPHER's vision.
The vision is supposed to exist before the shot is done, otherwise it becomes an interpretation…

This requires to be be very fast to capture the right moment (everything being in one's frame) or to be very patient, waiting for all to be in accordance of your vision.
By no means I want to express to frame very close or very large!
As an example of what is possible with different lens/focal length to frame the same subject, have a look to this thread! I will just add to this thread, that beside the choice of lens, once the frame is in one's mind, on can use his legs, helicopter, car or whatever allowed motion vehicle to be rightly positioned…
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Defense of Framing wider and cropping later on a 21" LCD with a glass of Bordeaux!

Thank you for your kind words toward my work Asher, but let me disagree with you!

Wether the photographer is a pro or a beginner, doesn't change anything about framing, imho.
Framing (large or close) is one of the main important thing in photography.
One have to know what one wants to include or exclude in/of the frame. Because this is the PHOTOGRAPHER's vision.
The vision is supposed to exist before the shot is done, otherwise it becomes an interpretation…
Nicolas,

You just have no idea how talented you are! It's like a concert cellist telling a student to play off by heart when they can hardly read the music or get the bow position right. Rachel has a particular problem with landscapes. She's good at portraits. For that, maybe because she understands people, she does almost instinctively well. For landscape and these school kids, however, she simply has not the vision yet. You, when you look at the sea, you know the water, clouds and birds like a mother knows her own child. Other people are not in your class!

A common reason for an apparent poor design of picture is not lack of vision. The position and angle are often correct, just that the crop is too tight and things are missed accidentally.

Rachel does not "know" the patterns holding the duck in the pond and the reeds and grass like you know your architecture and seascapes and plants with shadows. Who else has studied so much the very last rays of sunlight on silver blue water, painting in gold, with wild rough "Van Gogh" brush strokes on the sparkling waves?

For you and other expert photographers who have put in their labor for so many years, it's easy!


  • You have your vision before you shoot and then
  • You execute it.

With large format view 4x5 and 8x10 cameras, everything was so slow that the photographer always developed a vision before he/she was able to make a good processing of the film.

Today, however, with Rachel's Nikon, almost all the time the picture should come out well. So she, like most all others, has missed the slow apprenticeship that photographers had, as an assistant to a pro. Composition of nature is not straightforward. If one's hands shake and eyesight is not perfect then we can miss the head of the egret! So by shooting wider, then later, sitting by the 21 inch LCD screen, one can fine adjust the borders.


  • Yes one has a vision
  • but you haven't cut of the wheels of a car or the top of a mountain by accident.

When I photograph in studio lit settings or certain architectural street shots, these are exactly framed. I often have a drawing to follow! However, as you know, in the street, I treat my viewfinder with disrespect and just aim the camera from my hip and fire as I pass. There's room for work in all these ways.

The only thing that counts to me is "Does the picture have any power over me to cause me to return to it and for me to value it.


  • The picture works or not for the purpose intended.
  • The more important the purpose, the better it is to frame well at the time.
  • For the less skilled, getting the fleeting subject is more important than the rules of framing!
  • The way to be certain is to frame wide
  • Later, without shaking hands one can crop better!
  • A big screen is kind to those with lesser eyesight and body reflexes.
  • Now there's time to remove the excess. time to remove the excess.

Now if you cannot frame well, forget about being a wedding photographer since the event is only happening once. Still, one might want to photograph a child, right now. The kids move. Things change.

Nicolas, just allow this, when I am shooting on the fly, or for someone else as in Rachel’s case, where who has not as yet mastered framing, where shot after shot has parts cut off, if one must have a picture of a grandchild and that moment will be lost, framing wide is the only way to go!

Otherwise, your approach is to be admired and a good working habit of being able to think about what will be in the final print and frame it perfectly!

Asher
 
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Ken Tanaka

pro member
Ken

what do I find compelling-and thank you for asking such a glorious question!

I went back visually and also in a tactile mode with these- I even caught the scent of who I used to be with these school children-
I remembered walking home" the scent of the air even the warmth of the sun my freedom as innocent as it was- how happy I was to be alive-just as these precious children were "so was I in that time of innocence"
I was this girl and still find that girl beats in my heart-the shots actually compelled me to be more just the way a child is-

me- a visual of then- a memory-
A camera lens cannot convey any of the sensory or cognitive information that you referenced. Just ask anyone who has taken one of the millions of landscape or panorama photos recorded every week; no matter how big or 'pretty' the picture they just don't put the viewer in the scene.

Creating images that successfully convey anything close to what you suggest is far more technically and conceptually difficult than you probably would imagine; just ask any ad firm creative director. It is, of course, possible to grab a lucky snap or two that trigger YOUR recollections. But it's unlikely that they'll work on a more generalized audience. (Your images do nothing to recall my "walking home from school" memories...sorry.)

If you every want to get a sense of why some of the top creative commercial snappers bill $2 mil+ per year, try creating fictive scenes that convey "walking home from school" to a much broader audience. Every little detail matters in such scenes. The scene, the framing, the kids' clothing, the micro-gestures, etc. It's tough stuff.
 
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Charlotte Thompson

Well-known member
Ken

I disagerre-

you said

A camera lens cannot convey any of the sensory or cognitive information that you referenced. Just ask anyone who has taken one of the millions of landscape or panorama photos recorded every week; no matter how big or 'pretty' the picture they just don't put the viewer in the scene.

Creating images


Ken-


to the artist to say- their own work'
how other peolpe se is there right to seeit!

a camera is only a tool- I use-
but ultimately-

I am the eye-

Charlotte
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Ken

I disagree-

Ken said

"A camera lens cannot convey any of the sensory or cognitive information that you referenced. Just ask anyone who has taken one of the millions of landscape or panorama photos recorded every week; no matter how big or 'pretty' the picture they just don't put the viewer in the scene."


to the artist to say- their own work'
how other peolpe se is there right to seeit!

a camera is only a tool- I use-
but ultimately-

I am the eye-
Charlotte,

Kens directness might seem an affront to personal art, but that would be a gross misinterpretation. As far as I understand, he does not deny what the image might mean to you. After all you took it and have your own associations and memories. When he says, "A camera lens cannot convey any of the sensory or cognitive information that you referenced", he refers to conveying across a bridge between different individuals. That's where the gap is!

Some shapes and patterns seem to have universal appeal but not defined as packages of meaning. There are a few cross-cultural iconic shapes and also some symbols are part of our own Western Culture, for example the cross. Still, I don't see in your photograph of children coming home from school your personal meanings. You, likely don't expect me too.

We accept the idea of personal art. We respect that and it can be thrilling. Still, if a picture has symbols that are occult and not transferred to other viewers, we cannot then experience what's your art as something that moves us too. The Arc of Intent might have been completed for you personally. We don't deny that.

What's needed to constitute community art is something that can demand attention from others as well as yourself. The public can never fully appreciate and re-invoke all the ideas and feelings of the artist. In the same way the artist cannot extend himself or herself to explore all the ways in which other people will experience the artists work. At the very least, the artist must deliver something that demands and gets repeated attention and the word spreads.

However, if one's work is just a pictorial aid for personal memories, not remarkable in composition or other aesthetics, then there's a problem. For it to work with any power for others, a lot of craft, symbols and iconography, associations and even references to other art need to guide us to read your narrative.

For our purposes here in OPF, we are interested in individual paths of creativity. So if you have your own strong ideas, then when you show the picture introduce this so we can follow your train of thought and then, through your guidance get some of the feelings you are so passionate to express.

Just because we protest that a picture does not convey to us the meaning you say it carries for you, is not any put down to you, rather a signal that the work is, as yet, not able to recruit others.

Ken to my mind brings some needed reality to our critique. So let's not make out that anyone is denigrating personal experience with their own artwork. Far from it! We just want to be let in on the story and secrets so we know what's going on.

With kindest thoughts,

Asher
 

Charlotte Thompson

Well-known member
Asher

Really I dont take any personal affront at all, its a lesson right, of course- I dont think that these shots are worthy of any thing other than what they are, a study, a learning- a doing-
I think some times in the typing things, words can be misunderstood but would be better of course person to person eye to eye- but we use what me have for communication now-
I thought Ken gave good info I am not at all! in any way taken aback ok?-

Charlotte-
 

Ken Tanaka

pro member
A photograph of an apple pie means nothing to a viewer who's never seen an apple, never seen a pie, never eaten such a concoction, and never smelled a freshly-baked pie. Even a 4' x 6' image of an apple pie will be meaningless, aside from visual characteristics of the physical photo.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
The role of "qualification" in appreciation of photography

A photograph of an apple pie means nothing to a viewer who's never seen an apple, never seen a pie, never eaten such a concoction, and never smelled a freshly-baked pie. Even a 4' x 6' image of an apple pie will be meaningless, aside from visual characteristics of the physical photo.
Granted that if you show the photograph of the apple pie to a child from the Sahara. In most of our Western Societies, the apple pie is understood. This is a great example of why we need to become qualified to appreciate a lot of art. That's again why I have excess patience in looking at the work of new photographers and ask for introductions. I'm always concerned that my lack of appreciation might be based on ignorance of references the picture's value depends on.

Asher
 

Ivan Garcia

New member
I can't help to think of these images as quick grabs, and for me, they fail to convey the powerful message Charlotte has in mind. More thought is needed to achieve the desired emotion.
I do understand that shooting from one's car is difficult, I do it very often. But, with a little planning and patience, good images can be achieved. Keep working on the idea and eventually you will get there.
 
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