Fall color

[Don Ferguson Jr.]

Can you please give me your opinions on this pic especially the sky .The sky was washed out and I corrected it some .I guess I need to shot in the am rather then late in pm when sun is coming towards me washing out sky.
Thanks
Don

 

[Mary Bull]

Beautiful photo; I'd like to learn how to fix a washed-out sky, too.

I have faced the exact same problem, though I am far from getting such excellent exposure and composition as you show in this image.

I think your picture is very beautiful, apart from the pale sky.

I would like to know the solution to a sky that is washed-out, myself--beyond adjusting the time of day when one is taking the pictures.

On one of the photos I made of Radnor Lake, I decided to practice masking out everything but the sky--in LightZone you do that by drawing a region and then the changes you make with the tools only take place in that region.

So I have a post up right now in Digital Entry Photography that worried all my friends considerably. They thought my white balance was messed up in-camera. Well--before I masked the sky, I had warmed the temperature on everything, because not only was the sky washed out, the colorful fall foliage on the hills across the lake was, too.

After I drew the region, I used the hue/saturation tool to get the best approximation of blue I could find--which turned out to be more like a pastel aqua; it's very nearly light green.

Can you rescue your picture with masks and curves, or with clones? (I know nothing about PhotoShop, but I've seen people here using those terms when discussing enhancing only one area of an image.)

Here's the link to my post of the appalling sky in my picture of Radnor Lake at the bend:

http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12625#post12625

Scroll down--it's the second landscape (lake-scape) below the snapshot of myself that my nephew made when we were at Radnor.

I will be reading this thread closely to see what kind of advice and comments you get from the knowledgeable artists here.

Mary

 

[Marian Howell]

Don, what corrections have you already tried on the sky? i would think a bit of specific blue-sky saturation in the hue-saturation adjustment layer in photoshop might bring it out more. maybe not enough for what you want, but more. if you are 90º to the sun a polarizer might make the sky pop more. sadly though i must say that there is no substitute for the right light at the right time of day
in terms of composition, i find my eye concentrating on the left 2/3 of the frame, the fence and the colorful trees, and not much on the green trees on the right. that's a great fence, and i might try recomposing the shot to include more of it and have it lead my eye to those fabuous fall foliage trees!

 

[Asher Kelman]

Don, ..........
in terms of composition, i find my eye concentrating on the left 2/3 of the frame, the fence and the colorful trees, and not much on the green trees on the right. that's a great fence, and i might try recomposing the shot to include more of it and have it lead my eye to those fabuous fall foliage trees!

Don,

Let me quote fro the thread Mary referenced in her post above:

The secret here is to have a single unifying "unit of concept". This means that there is one whole matter to consider.

So in this case here are the choices I see, (althought this isn't exhaustive of the possibilities for art) that can be transmitted easily to others.

1. The whole tree against a non-distracting background or one that adds harmony, contrast or framing.

2. Part of the tree only.

3. Include enough of the street and at least one house, so it is a composition of the street and the tree.

Unless one has experience, it is hard to compose with 3/4 of something and 1/8 of several other items in focus invading that picture.

Here I'd ask, "Where or what is the unit of interest"we should pay attention to?"

The fence woiuld be such an important feature, but it is only used in part because of the angle and it does not balance with anythong else.

Had there been space to the left of the fence and we could se more of its structure, not just mostly the foreshortened angle, then that could have been one key element. However, it is incomplete.

The trees are so attractive.

It needs a little more marching around, trying to get view from which to frame a pleasing balance where one thing is a counterpoint to another so all the features together constitute one whole subject of interest.

Is this area near you?

I don't think the sky is a major issue. The picture needs balance before that.

Sometimes, one needs to return to a favorite spots several times to get an idea of what can work to make a good composition. All you need to do is then come 20 minutes before sunrise or 1 hour before sunset and keep taking the pictures you pre-planned.

I often do my planning with no camera. I just use my thumb and fingers from both hands to form a rectangle and frame the area of interest. I may make a sketch. When I bring my tripod from the hotel or my car, I already have made the picture inj my head. I just want to adjust the version by the lighting.

You can also do a cutout in cardboard and use that shaped to the ratio of your final print.

To fix this in Photoshop is not worth it, for my work at least, since I could get a much better picture if I returned, as I have done myself!

Let me know if my criticism is too strong. I try to give feedback in the clearest possible way, but this doesn't take away from the goal you have of that wonderful picture.

Asher

 

[Don Ferguson Jr.]

I have faced the exact same problem, though I am far from getting such excellent exposure and composition as you show in this image.

I think your picture is very beautiful, apart from the pale sky.

I would like to know the solution to a sky that is washed-out, myself--beyond adjusting the time of day when one is taking the pictures.

On one of the photos I made of Radnor Lake, I decided to practice masking out everything but the sky--in LightZone you do that by drawing a region and then the changes you make with the tools only take place in that region.

So I have a post up right now in Digital Entry Photography that worried all my friends considerably. They thought my white balance was messed up in-camera. Well--before I masked the sky, I had warmed the temperature on everything, because not only was the sky washed out, the colorful fall foliage on the hills across the lake was, too.

After I drew the region, I used the hue/saturation tool to get the best approximation of blue I could find--which turned out to be more like a pastel aqua; it's very nearly light green.

Can you rescue your picture with masks and curves, or with clones? (I know nothing about PhotoShop, but I've seen people here using those terms when discussing enhancing only one area of an image.)

Here's the link to my post of the appalling sky in my picture of Radnor Lake at the bend:

http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12625#post12625

Scroll down--it's the second landscape (lake-scape) below the snapshot of myself that my nephew made when we were at Radnor.

I will be reading this thread closely to see what kind of advice and comments you get from the knowledgeable artists here.

Mary

Mary,
Thanks for the kind words .I am new to this digital camera too . Maybe we can get better with all the good advice on this forum.
Regards
Don

 

[Don Ferguson Jr.]

Don, what corrections have you already tried on the sky? i would think a bit of specific blue-sky saturation in the hue-saturation adjustment layer in photoshop might bring it out more. maybe not enough for what you want, but more. if you are 90º to the sun a polarizer might make the sky pop more. sadly though i must say that there is no substitute for the right light at the right time of day
in terms of composition, i find my eye concentrating on the left 2/3 of the frame, the fence and the colorful trees, and not much on the green trees on the right. that's a great fence, and i might try recomposing the shot to include more of it and have it lead my eye to those fabuous fall foliage trees!

Marian,
You are sure correct about the light .The contrast range is a different animal then film!
I appreciate your advice and the fence was a problem because the main road is just to the left of it. .It is across from my house. It will be hard to lead it in for that reason . I will look for a compromise.
Regards
Don

 

[Don Ferguson Jr.]

Don,

Let me quote fro the thread Mary referenced in her post above:



Here I'd ask, "Where or what is the unit of interest"we should pay attention to?"

The fence would be such an important feature, but it is only partially exploited because of the angle and it does not balance with anythong else.

Had there been space to the left of the fence and we could se more of its structure, not just mostly the foreshortened angle, then that could have been one key element. However, it is incomplete.

The trees are so attractive.

It needs a little more marching around, trying to get view from which to frame a pleasing balance where one thing is a counterpoint to another so all the features together constitute one whole subject of interest.

Is this area near you?

I don't think the sky is a major issue. The picture needs balance before that.

Sometimes, one needs to return to a favorite spots several times to get an idea of what can work to make a good composition. All you need to do is then come 20 minutes before sunrise or 1 hour before sunset and keep taking the pictures you pre-planned.

I often do my planning with no camera. I just use my thumb and fingers from both hands to form a rectangle and frame the area of interest. I may make a sketch. When I bring my tripod from the hotel or my car, I already have made the picture in my head. I just want to adjust the version by the lighting.

You can also do a cutout in cardboard and use that shaped to the ratio of your final print.

To fix this in Photoshop is not worth it, (for my own work at least, since I might get a better picture if I returned, as I have done myself).

Let me know if my criticism is too strong. I try to give feedback in the clearest possible way, but this doesn't take away from the goal you have of that wonderful picture.

Asher

Asher
I appreciate any comment from you ,and I think it is very nice you are interested in helping others. The fence is right across the road from our house so I can play around with different views for a few more days The trees are really nice this time ..As I told Marian the road is just to the left of the fence and I wanted to lead it in to the trees . I now see what you are talking about and will try different angles.
Regards
Don




Corrected my bad spelling and replace a word of mine for clarity

 

[Mary Bull]

Mary,
Thanks for the kind words .I am new to this digital camera too . Maybe we can get better with all the good advice on this forum.

I am certain that we shall both get better. Everyone here is so generous with time and with detailed help.

What camera do you have?

Mine is a Canon G2.

And what image editor are you using?

Since August, I have been learning to use LightZone. Before that, I had the inadequate IrfanView. Although I still use IrfanView for a few things, like layering a copyright notice onto an image, or putting a caption in the border of an image that I print for my sister.

I like LightZone very much. Before I get to it, I download with Downloader Pro (from BreezeBrowzer), and then convert the RAW files with Adobe DNG. That way I have untouched RAW files saved, no matter how much I play with the image in LightZone.

Also: Are you shooting RAW? Or do you prefer to shoot JPEGs?

Don't let me overwhelm you with questions. They all relate to things I've been learning to do over the past 9 weeks. They say there's nothing like a new convert for buttonholing people with info on new toys.

When I shot film, I had an old 35 mm Minolta match-needle camera. Never bothered with settings. I did have three lenses (well, still have those)--a 55 mm, a 28 mm, and a 400 mm. But I bought a Kodak DC210 in 1998 and haven't since used the Minolta. Got the G2 early in 2003.

If you've told about your camera and your image editor elsewhere, please accept my apologies for missing those posts.

Mary

 

[Ray West]

Hi Don,

I was going to suggest you climb over the fence and stand under the green tree to the right, but that may not be a good idea, from what you say - 1) trespass 2) houses and road in background. Perhaps it may work by walking up the road, towards the coloured trees, and taking a shot with them on your left, running into the distance so to speak (the green tree would be on the right, but out of the frame I suspect). Depends what is there. Dawn may be a nice time, but sunset is often more conveniant ;-)
(You could try google earth, or other aerial photo software, to try and locate a better viewpoint..)

wrt. Irfan view - it is primarily an image viewer, and as such, it excells. It gives detailed exif information, and the size of the image on disc, in memory, wherever. It was never designed for editing, other than cropping or changing format from jpg to tiff, say, or changing the image resolution or size with a choice of conversion methods. In that respect, with its other features, it goes way beyond most other software out there. It is not colour profile aware, it was never intended to be an image editor, such as the adobe stuff.

Best wishes,

Ray

 

[Mary Bull]

Comparing and evaluating image editors

Ray, point taken about IrfanView not being color aware. It is very hard to get colors right when printing to a printer with its print set-up functions.

However--at least in the version I have--there's "Image" on the toolbar. From which you can enhance colors, reduce or increase color depth, convert to gray scale, sharpen, tend to red-eye, swao colors using a color palette, and apply about a dozen special effects.

Before a friend recommended IrfanView to me (for cropping and resizing) I was using Adobe Photo Deluxe2, which came bundled with my Kodak DC210 camera.

I will say that I found IrfanView to have a wider range of image-editing tools and an easier user interface than Adobe Photo Deluxe2 (I got that in 1998, as I said, with the Kodak digital camera).

But, of course, IrfanView is nothing to compare with LightZone (or Photoshop, of course) or even with Picasa. I did enjoy using Picasa that you pointed me to. But I found I could do more in LightZone of the things I am interested in doing.

Mary

 

[Joe Russo]

Don,

The things that I like the most about this photograph are the colors of the two trees on the left and the fence. What a terrific fence! I hope you have easy access to this location because I think you can make some great photographs here.

With regards to improvements: 1) I agree with you that you should at least explore the possibility of shooting this scene in early morning rather than later afternoon light. Although backlighting autumn trees can make for a very nice image. 2) Rather than fix a washed out sky why not just minimize it's presence in scene? You could either crop this photograph down to just above the red tree or do the same thing when composing the shot in the viewfinder. 3) Personally I'd like to see this shot taken from a lower position, closer to the ground in order to accomplish 2 above and include more of that fence. Keep the fence on a diagonal like it currently is just get the camera a little closer to the ground. You might have to use a smaller apeture or set the lens to it's hyperfocal distance in order to keep everything in the image sharp.

I hope you go back and shoot this a few more times - morning or afternoon - before the colors disappear.

Thanks for sharing your photograph.

 

[Ray West]

Hi Mary,
I read 'inadequate Irfanview' as a slur on an excellant piece of software. It is a bit like starting out in diy, say. At a pinch, you can use a screwdriver as a chisel, a paint strirrer, a tyre lever, a hammer, a bradawl, whatever. When you get your new shiny chisel, your screwdriver is not inadequate - unless you have covered it in paint, embedded nail heads in the handle, or so on. Software is the one thing you have that does not wear out - if you actually 'have' it, that is (like you do not own it.)

Maybe you could start a new thread off on this in 'layback cafe', where I expect one of the moderators could adjust what you say.. but I'm sure the other moderator would adjust him ;-)

Best wishes,

Ray

 

[Dierk Haasis]

wrt. Irfan view - it is primarily an image viewer, and as such, it excells.

I am using IrfanView myself, primarily for its loading speed and sometimes for batching [although lately I'ver started to do it all in iView MediaPro]. Since Irfan siljan is a kind of Lone Ranger without the attitude I do recommend IV often when asked - I like small businesses.

So much for the excusatory explanation beforehand.

Unfortunately IrfanView is missing something very vital for an excellent image viewer, and anyone ever having used ProPhoto or other wide gamut colour spaces knows that: colour management. As long as your photos are in sRGB or AdobeRGB they will look fine in IV but not with wider spaces.

 

[Ray West]

Hi Dierk,

I agree with what you say, exactly, my later analogy with the screwdriver, fits only if your screwdriver is not a cross point (or philips). If you load in a wide colour space image, and convert it to jpeg in IV, is it still horrible? I've never tried it, or if I have, I've not noticed it as being bad, but I guess it would be still pretty grim. I always use it for resizing to web based images, anyway, (so any old colour will do ;-) The exif info is quick, detailed, easy to handle, since you can copy to clipboard, etc. Its very good value for money...

Best wishes, Ray

Ps. btw. nice to see you spell color correctly ;-)

edited to correct screwdrivers

 

[Aaron Strasburg]

Hi Don,

I like the fence a lot, as well as the colorful trees on the left but the tree on the right doesn't seem to add a lot. I'd be tempted to shoot this vertical with just the left ~half of this image. A wide lens, perhaps even standing on the fence if you could get away with it, which I think would make the fence lead you up into the trees. Minimize the amount of sky visible. A polarizing filter may help increase the saturation in the sky and leaves as well.

Nice to have this so close, eh? Keep shooting it in different ways, as others have advised me here.

Aaron

 

[Asher Kelman]

Don,

Is this place near you?

It is so rich. If you can step back too far, as suggested a lower shot behind the fence. Try focusing on the trees and letting the fence just get out of focus at a wide f stop.

Another approach is to clomb over the fence and get into that field so that the trees are in the foreground and the fence is diagonal in the background.

You have chosen a great subject. Also it will change every day.

Good luck on your experiments.

The idea of a polarizing filter is worth trying.

Asher

 

[Don Ferguson Jr.]

I am certain that we shall both get better. Everyone here is so generous with time and with detailed help.

What camera do you have?

Mine is a Canon G2.

And what image editor are you using?

Since August, I have been learning to use LightZone. Before that, I had the inadequate IrfanView. Although I still use IrfanView for a few things, like layering a copyright notice onto an image, or putting a caption in the border of an image that I print for my sister.

I like LightZone very much. Before I get to it, I download with Downloader Pro (from BreezeBrowzer), and then convert the RAW files with Adobe DNG. That way I have untouched RAW files saved, no matter how much I play with the image in LightZone.

Also: Are you shooting RAW? Or do you prefer to shoot JPEGs?

Don't let me overwhelm you with questions. They all relate to things I've been learning to do over the past 9 weeks. They say there's nothing like a new convert for buttonholing people with info on new toys.

When I shot film, I had an old 35 mm Minolta match-needle camera. Never bothered with settings. I did have three lenses (well, still have those)--a 55 mm, a 28 mm, and a 400 mm. But I bought a Kodak DC210 in 1998 and haven't since used the Minolta. Got the G2 early in 2003.

If you've told about your camera and your image editor elsewhere, please accept my apologies for missing those posts.

Mary

Mary,
I shoot with Rebel XT 17-85 IS for now ! I PP with PSE3 with Grants Tools so it is almost Photoshop has curves ,color selection ,layer mask . I use Rawshooter Premium as Raw processor .I always shoot raw. Sometimes use Canon DPP too for Raw PP.
Regards
Don

 

[Don Ferguson Jr.]

Don,

The things that I like the most about this photograph are the colors of the two trees on the left and the fence. What a terrific fence! I hope you have easy access to this location because I think you can make some great photographs here.

With regards to improvements: 1) I agree with you that you should at least explore the possibility of shooting this scene in early morning rather than later afternoon light. Although backlighting autumn trees can make for a very nice image. 2) Rather than fix a washed out sky why not just minimize it's presence in scene? You could either crop this photograph down to just above the red tree or do the same thing when composing the shot in the viewfinder. 3) Personally I'd like to see this shot taken from a lower position, closer to the ground in order to accomplish 2 above and include more of that fence. Keep the fence on a diagonal like it currently is just get the camera a little closer to the ground. You might have to use a smaller apeture or set the lens to it's hyperfocal distance in order to keep everything in the image sharp.

I hope you go back and shoot this a few more times - morning or afternoon - before the colors disappear.

Thanks for sharing your photograph.

Joe ,
thanks for offering your suggestions I will try some .I did not think about getting lower so it is good to have new ideas.
Regards
Don

 

[Don Ferguson Jr.]

Hi Don,

I like the fence a lot, as well as the colorful trees on the left but the tree on the right doesn't seem to add a lot. I'd be tempted to shoot this vertical with just the left ~half of this image. A wide lens, perhaps even standing on the fence if you could get away with it, which I think would make the fence lead you up into the trees. Minimize the amount of sky visible. A polarizing filter may help increase the saturation in the sky and leaves as well.

Nice to have this so close, eh? Keep shooting it in different ways, as others have advised me here.

Aaron

Aaron ,
Appreciate the ideas .Yea, I need to get polarizing filter its on the list!
Yea I love these types of fences as tthey have a lot of character.
Regards
Don

 

[Don Ferguson Jr.]

Hi Don,

I was going to suggest you climb over the fence and stand under the green tree to the right, but that may not be a good idea, from what you say - 1) trespass 2) houses and road in background. Perhaps it may work by walking up the road, towards the coloured trees, and taking a shot with them on your left, running into the distance so to speak (the green tree would be on the right, but out of the frame I suspect). Depends what is there. Dawn may be a nice time, but sunset is often more conveniant ;-)
(You could try google earth, or other aerial photo software, to try and locate a better viewpoint..)

wrt. Irfan view - it is primarily an image viewer, and as such, it excells. It gives detailed exif information, and the size of the image on disc, in memory, wherever. It was never designed for editing, other than cropping or changing format from jpg to tiff, say, or changing the image resolution or size with a choice of conversion methods. In that respect, with its other features, it goes way beyond most other software out there. It is not colour profile aware, it was never intended to be an image editor, such as the adobe stuff.

Best wishes,

Ray

Ray,
It is nice to get different creative ideas from those much more knowledgeable then me. I do not have to worry about trespass it is right across the road and they are nice.I would tell them if it turns out good I will give them one !
Regards
Don

 

[Don Ferguson Jr.]

Don,

Is this place near you?

It is so rich. If you can step back too far, as suggested a lower shot behind the fence. Try focusing on the trees and letting the fence just get out of focus at a wide f stop.

Another approach is to clomb over the fence and get into that field so that the trees are in the foreground and the fence is diagonal in the background.

You have chosen a great subject. Also it will change every day.

Good luck on your experiments.

The idea of a polarizing filter is worth trying.

Asher

Asher ,
Yes ,it is right across the road from our house in Greenville SC . Those are good things to try .The road is making it a little hard since it is so close to the fence. It road is right down the little hill from the fence , which is the left in the picture. Again it is nice of you to take such an interest in my post.
Regards
Don

 

[Asher Kelman]

See if you can, perhaps rent a Sigma 12-24mm lens for one day! That would be awesome.

What wide angle do you have?

Asher

 

[Don Ferguson Jr.]

Asher,
I have 17-85 IS not the 17-40L but it is pretty good ! I hope leaves stay a few more days.
Regards
Don

 

[Mary Bull]

Mary,
I shoot with Rebel XT 17-85 IS for now ! I PP with PSE3 with Grants Tools so it is almost Photoshop has curves ,color selection ,layer mask . I use Rawshooter Premium as Raw processor .I always shoot raw. Sometimes use Canon DPP too for Raw PP.

I have already seen from the rest of the thread and from the image itself how far advanced you are beyond me in your skills, both with shooting and with editing.

It's only left to say that I enjoy the scene as it is very much, and I'm looking forward to seeing what you have to show us after shooting it from different angles, per the advice of the other posters to this thread.

Mary

 

[Mary Bull]

Then I should have been more precise in my wording.

I am glad to have Irfanview at my disposal and I appreciate the author's making it available without charge.

In no way did I mean "inadequate" as anything more than inadequate for the image processing that I was trying to learn to do with the image editor LightZone.

In my reply to you where I pointed out all the image-editing tools besides resizing and text-layering, I think I indicated some of its excellent capabilities, even as an editor that is not "color-aware."

I was speaking specifically about my own present needs when I characterized Irfanview as inadequate.

Mary

 

[Mary Bull]

... Unfortunately IrfanView is missing something very vital for an excellent image viewer, and anyone ever having used ProPhoto or other wide gamut colour spaces knows that: colour management. As long as your photos are in sRGB or AdobeRGB they will look fine in IV but not with wider spaces.

On my screen, I always like what Irfanview shows me.

It's when I print to my inkjet printer from it that I find I have to make several tries to get the colors acceptable to myself. And it varies from photo to photo--but nearly always some adjustment in saturation is required.

In LightZone I am able to know from what I see on-screen what the printer is going to give me. Presently, with the Epson R800, I am choosing the option "printer managed colors," since that setting is fitting very well with printing from within LightZone.

Mary

 

[Ray West]

Hi Don,

You're in with a chance, then, if you have a right to roam. ( I take it when you say 'you will give them one, you mean to give them a print, not like my mum used to say to me, 'if you don't behave, I'll end up giving you one' (meaning a clip round the ear))

Get in there with your lens and camera, get up close take just a few leaves, look how they are arranged, take some full frame trees, or get back for wider views, leaves on the ground - pattern, colour, bare stark branches, all the usual stuff. Look how trees work. Take at least a few hundred shots, at different times of the day, if you can. But think about what you are trying to achieve with each shot, for a second or two, before you press the button. If you think moving a foot or so to the right would have been better, do that, take a couple more. The first thing is composition, although cropping can take place in some instances, you'd have to be pretty cute to get the angle of the fence line changed in post processing. If the fence is of interest, a few dozen more shots. Try different apertures, speed's, iso's, whatever. Shoot in raw. Next day, whenever, whizz through looking in picasso, or whatever, note down the few that instantly look nice. Maybe the same a few days later. Get it down to two or three. If the colour is crap, try your pp skills, post it here, someone will give precise details on how to rescue it. If it can't be rescued, there's always next year. Digital images cost you nothing, just your time. A month or so later, you will probably pick different images from your collection.

Get up before dawn, sieze the day ....

Maybe, that just about sums up my knowledge of it all....

Best wishes,

Ray

 

[Don Ferguson Jr.]

Ray,

Thanks for giving me more tips .I will post a few I have taken that I thought looked good and let you see my effort.
Regards
Don

 

[Doug Lloyd]

I like the elements here a great deal. The fence just grabs me.
Doug

 

[Don Ferguson Jr.]

I just saw this response .Doug ,I apperciate your kind words .
Regards
Don