My World: Horizontals and Verticals..

[fahim mohammed]

I returned to an internet forum, after a break of about a year and a half.
Posted a few photos. Received a few interesting comments. I think one did say ' awesome '!

What surprised me the most was that the majority of comments referred to my verticals and horizontals not being true N-S and E-W.

There were a few comments to ' burn and dodge ', saturation and the inevitable issue
of sharpening.

I thanked them all for their valuable suggestions. It was indeed kind of them to give of their time.

I tried to explain, obviously not too successfully, that while all these were important and sometimes critical considerations; I really am not too worried about them; my ' focus ' in my photos is on something other than these issues.

One kindly soul asked me to get my lens/camera calibrated for back and front focus issues.

I suggested that I was not presenting a Technical Drawing; and though I needed to pay attention
to various defiencies in my photographs..perfect verticals and horizontals should not be the be/end all of my photographs.

Why I am posting this here? Good question. Maybe because I can't post it there.

 

[Sandrine Bascouert]

Of course, there will always be those who look only at technique, who ask 'how', while others of a more curious nature will ask 'why'. Personally, I have always preferred inspiration to information.
Man Ray

What type of camera do you prefer to work with ? "None ! I have to modify them all. My cameras are all of my own design. I take lenses apart and put them together again and put them on cameras that were not meant for them."
Man Ray

 

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

I returned to an internet forum, after a break of about a year and a half.
Posted a few photos. Received a few interesting comments. I think one did say ' awesome '!

What surprised me the most was that the majority of comments referred to my verticals and horizontals not being true N-S and E-W.

There were a few comments to ' burn and dodge ', saturation and the inevitable issue
of sharpening.

I thanked them all for their valuable suggestions. It was indeed kind of them to give of their time.

I tried to explain, obviously not too successfully, that while all these were important and sometimes critical considerations; I really am not too worried about them; my ' focus ' in my photos is on something other than these issues.

One kindly soul asked me to get my lens/camera calibrated for back and front focus issues.

I suggested that I was not presenting a Technical Drawing; and though I needed to pay attention
to various defiencies in my photographs..perfect verticals and horizontals should not be the be/end all of my photographs.

Why I am posting this here? Good question. Maybe because I can't post it there.

Hi Fahim,

There is more to photography than "means, motive, and opportunity", although the motive part of your images is an important part of what you seek to communicate. As in all communications, to be successful one needs to send a clear message in order for the receiving party to understand it, but the receiving party needs to be in tune as well.

The comments on technique may also be interpreted as pointing out something that distracts from getting the message across. Or, more likely in a tech oriented environment, that the receiving party has such a huge mental filter built-in that he/she is incapable of getting the message ... :-(

I enjoy your contributions, even if I personally would have processed them differently. Technique is a means, not a goal.

Cheers,
Bart

 

[fahim mohammed]

Sandrine, Bart..in keeping with my own suggestion to say at least a ' Thank You ' to those that respond to a post, however unexpected the feedback might be...

Thank you both.

I am sure this thread shall get much more interesting. I can assure of that.

 

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, Fahim,

Awesome!

But I think your "l" typebar is bent a little.

Best regards,

Doug

 

[fahim mohammed]

Good evening Doug.

Thank you!

Is it the ' I ' or the ' l ' that appears bent. I can't make out.

Regards.

 

[Joachim Bolte]

Posted a few photos. Received a few interesting comments.

Maybe the question should be why you are posting pictures in a forum about photography. If your objective was to show where and how you have travelled, maybe a travel-forum would be a better choice. On a photography-forum you are bound to get comments about the technical aspect of your photographs, even if you will not ask for them.

So I think the question shouldn't be 'if', but 'why and where'...

cheers

Joachim

 

[fahim mohammed]

Joachim, thank you for the valid comments.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Maybe the question should be why you are posting pictures in a forum about photography. If your objective was to show where and how you have travelled, maybe a travel-forum would be a better choice. On a photography-forum you are bound to get comments about the technical aspect of your photographs, even if you will not ask for them.

So I think the question shouldn't be 'if', but 'why and where'...

cheers

Joachim

Joachim,

A great point, photography, at the core of the word, must be about photography and the photograph. But, if not for the mass integration of picture taking into every society with modern communication, the films, cameras and silicon chips would hardly have been developed to the marvelous extent we enjoy.

At it's onset, photography was about brilliance in innovation and enterprise as well as studious technique. The marvel was spread to the masses with simple box devices. This led to storage of memories and the wonders of travel to places most cannot afford to go to. On this richness of demand, there's an appetite for supporting photography as a fine and technical art in all its meaning.

Now we go full circle and the snaps of yesteryear get mimicked as "edgy techniques" or "journalistic styles" for casual wedding photography or get assembled into collages as fine art and displayed in national galleries.

Fahim, has his own ongoing thread, here in "Rskit!, which provides a kind of "vertical collage in time". There, the technical considerations can get overlooked to some extent. Some "disorder" helps convey the sense of the impulse or grabbed moment. Still, as Bart aptly points out, distractions to the message can be minimized. That's the main purpose of composition.

Whereas meticulous technique can most often consolidate the presentation, the photographer may go against those constraints for effect too or as part of the gestalt and truth of the matter.

In general, casual fun snaps go to Layback Café. However, we must have leeway for artistic expression. In my opinion, if I have schlepped a distance to get a picture, I'd hope to come back with technically excellent images.

OTOH, if they are taken out of a train window or on a truck bouncing on a dirt road they might be great images but not exactly right. So should they be straightened?

Asher

 

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, Fahim,

Is it the ' I ' or the ' l ' that appears bent. I can't make out.

I think you make out fine!

But, regarding the typebar, it is the "L/l" typebar, I think.

Best regards,

Doug

 

[fahim mohammed]

Asher; as usual a very considered and valuable response.

Thank you.

p.s I am using the terms photo/picture/image interchangeably. They might have different meanings, but not in this thread and not in my posts here.

Regards.

 

[Mark Hampton]

I returned to an internet forum, after a break of about a year and a half.
Posted a few photos. Received a few interesting comments. I think one did say ' awesome '!

What surprised me the most was that the majority of comments referred to my verticals and horizontals not being true N-S and E-W.

There were a few comments to ' burn and dodge ', saturation and the inevitable issue
of sharpening.

I thanked them all for their valuable suggestions. It was indeed kind of them to give of their time.

I tried to explain, obviously not too successfully, that while all these were important and sometimes critical considerations; I really am not too worried about them; my ' focus ' in my photos is on something other than these issues.

One kindly soul asked me to get my lens/camera calibrated for back and front focus issues.

I suggested that I was not presenting a Technical Drawing; and though I needed to pay attention
to various defiencies in my photographs..perfect verticals and horizontals should not be the be/end all of my photographs.

Why I am posting this here? Good question. Maybe because I can't post it there.

Fahim,

few shine and fewer still sparkle and fewer still try when they neither shine or sparkle to those whos are eyes glazed only with dust...

The work .. Your work ... you...

keep it coming please !


cheers

 

[fahim mohammed]

Mark, you are too generous with your words. Thank you.

 

[fahim mohammed]

'...photography, at the core of the word, must be about photography and the photograph...'
Yes and yes. Anthing that is captured by any means in the EMS is photography

A photograph is a photograph. Period.

'...why you are posting pictures in a forum about photography...' Because I am a member there.
Because I can post there.

' If your objective was to show where and how you have travelled, maybe a travel-forum would be a better choice. On a photography-forum you are bound to get comments about the technical aspect of your photographs, even if you will not ask for them. '.

I post pictures of archeological sites, in a photo forum. Not in an archeology dedicated forum.
Same with boats/ships..not in a naval forum. Portraits of children, men, women all in a photo forum. Not in a children's or a men's or a women's forum. Macros? I don;t send them off to CDC.

I have never complained of receiving comments on my posts and nowhere do I state that I do not want or need them.

This thread has generated more than 100 views in about 12 hrs. Nice. People do read ' interesting ' posts.

Let's then aim for the next 100 views..at least let's try..

'There is more to photography than "means, motive, and opportunity", '

Ah but dear OPF members and guests..there really is not anything else to photography besides means, motive, and opportunity.

 

[Asher Kelman]

'There is indeed much more to photography than "means, motive, and opportunity", '

Ah but dear OPF members and guests..there really is not anything else to photography besides means, motive, and opportunity.

Fahim,

There's more much more to photography than those issues, "means, motive and opportunity" which when favorable merely allow some picture to be taken. These are typical characteristics more commonly applied to anyone who might be suspect for a crime that has already been committed! Not so for the photograph! Applied to photography that might be made in the future, "means motive and opportunity" do nothing more than allow a person with a camera to be creative if they have sufficient skill, insight and talent to take advantage of that unique opportunity. At that point in time, the following come into play.

• How is the picture to be taken? This defines the character of the matter and distinguishes a picture which carries some weight from many more trivial attempts.
  
  
• How will the picture is processed? Images are, like infants, born with potential. How they are made ready for standing on their own results in either a great result or a tragic loss of potential.
  
  
• How will we, the public receive and experience the picture? What feelings and ideas are evoked. What imaginary scenarios are conjured up? What memories or stories are remembered? What "givens" are questioned and what dignity upheld? What values are refreshed and what rules are put to test? At the end, what entertainment did we have and will we linger or return and bring back our friends? Will the picture have air in its nostrils and breathe long after we are gone, attracting, drawing in and interviewing new generations of people to it?
  
• Will there be any significant influential consequences, values being reshaped, boundaries being moved?
  

Asher

 

[fahim mohammed]

Asher's comments need a studied and careful response. I shall return to his excellent post at a later time.

At this time, let's very very briefly introduce the subject of the 'message'. A field of its own.

I shall post two images in relation to the following:

'..Will there be any significant influential consequences, values being reshaped, boundaries being moved?..'

Much more significant than at first glance is the above observation. Literally.

The first 'masterpiece'.

Am I concerned about horizontals and verticals in the above? Should I be?

And then this 'masterpiece'.

Should I discuss the various positional options that were available to me. The color. The saturation.
Should I ' dodge ' the Robe?

You do realize that the positioning of the images ( and sizes ) would make a difference as to how they might be perceived? Should I worry about positioning to get my ' message ' across?

Maybe these should be posted on a religious site? Not on OPF, a photographic forum?

p.s I had another ' message masterpiece ' but coming out of a Passover Holiday, I thought better not to
burden people with that image at this time.

 

[Asher Kelman]

'..Will there be any significant influential consequences, values being reshaped, boundaries being moved?..'

Much more significant than at first glance is the above observation. Literally.

The first 'masterpiece'.

Am I concerned about horizontals and verticals in the above? Should I be?

The first stands on its own. It's an image the reflects the pain of millions of folk right now. It evokes empathy and embarrassment. It's a very important concept and well executed as, I believe, I feel at least some of the magnitude of what Fahim has materialized.

As I revisit, I realize that it can be interpreted in terms of the suffering of values and human life in the "Arab Spring" of 2011 and also the capacity for suicide bombings to draw in pious youth to murder countless souls based on which way their handlers aim them.

Obviously this does not depend on exact orthogonality. However, I suspect that altering aspects might indeed nuance impact. This part is the hardest: finalizing posture, position, focus, clarity, contrast and colors. Each step might indeed improve and then "one final improvement" can kill the picture entirely.

As it is, it works powerfully.

Asher

 

[fahim mohammed]

Asher, thank you for your very encouraging comment.

There is no wrong way to take a photograph. But there might be a better way.
Hence all input is valid. One sorts through the comments and applies that which is necessary. Or not as the photographer feels. But always with a respect to those who supplied the comments.

My prime motivator to intiate this thread was to generate participation, comment and views.

All comments about horizontal and verticals are valid. That was just an excuse. But based on a true and recent experience.

In my photographs, however, they take a secondary role. Because I am not good at technique.

To me the ' message ' the ' emotion ' is of primary importance.

But I never loose sight of the technical aspects of the process. It would be foolish to do otherwise.

The first response to my post was from Sandrine. Let me close by reminding you of that part which is most relevant to my photography. Attributed to Man Ray.

'Of course, there will always be those who look only at technique, who ask 'how', while others of a more curious nature will ask 'why'. Personally, I have always preferred inspiration to information.'

Other methodologies or a combination thereof might be better and more suitable. No right or wrong here.

Thank you all for your valuable comments and as Mark Hampton said don't be a voyeur on OPF. Be a voyager. That is what makes the OPF community.

Regards.

 

[Asher Kelman]

A Attributed to Man Ray.

'Of course, there will always be those who look only at technique, who ask 'how', while others of a more curious nature will ask 'why'. Personally, I have always preferred inspiration to information.'

Other methodologies or a combination thereof might be better and more suitable. No right or wrong here.

Thank you all for your valuable comments and as Mark Hampton said don't be a voyeur on OPF. Be a voyager. That is what makes the OPF community.

​

as Mark Hampton said "Don't be a voyeur on OPF. Be a voyager." That is what makes the OPF community.​

Well said!

Thanks for helping point the way!

Asher

 

[Jerome Marot]

I think that you may be touching on the limitations of what a forum can do.

As an experienced photographer, you developed your own photographic language. All experienced photographers do at some point. Your pictures are undoubtedly yours. Other photographers here take completely different pictures, not less or more valuable, but completely different, because they made different choices as to what photographic "words" they will use. What camera, lens, composition, subject, type of light, what they present in their pictures, etc... All those are part of the "language".

Obviously, to give a meaningful comment on a picture, the critic must understand what "language" the photographer is using. If he does not, he will give general comments addressing the common "language" which is taught in books to beginners: exposure, sharpness, classical composition rules, etc... But the photographer has decided to depart from some of these rules to develop his (or her...) own "language".

The limitation in a forum is that understanding the "language" of a given photographer takes time. If one goes to a gallery to see the work of a given photographer, one faces 20-30 pictures of the same person and the choices of that photographers are apparent from the similarities between them. Conversely, if the photographer goes to a critic with a portfolio, the same happens.

On a forum, however, we see a picture in insulation, especially if we are newcomers. The critics do not know the language and may interpret some deliberate choices of the photographer as technical errors. Which I admit is frustrating.

 

[fahim mohammed]

Jerome, you make a very valid point. I need to keep what you say in mind.

Thank you and kindest regards.

 

[Michael Nagel]

Photographic language is an important point, but I would extend that thought to the evolution everybody is going through, as a human being and as a photographer.

As a photographer - people seem to start with simple subjects, focus on getting the photo right from a technical point of view, cling to geometrical rules, histograms and the rest of the litany seen in so many forums. By the time they learn to see, sooner or later. This is the moment, when they are ready to push aside some of the rules and start to compose intuitively and capture the moments.

As a human being - I see a sequence of learning, believing to know it all, recognizing that the latter is not the case, learning more and becoming more open for different views. Some repeat stages of this development, some might never reach the last stage, everybody is different.

This article on The Online Photographer shows the dilemma quite well.
This comment followed by Asher's reply (the circle closes) summarizes it.

Best regards,
Michael

 

[fahim mohammed]

Michael, points well worth consideration and study.

Thanks.

 

[fahim mohammed]

The Final Chapter..

You folks are great. I honestly mean it. Thank you for your considered
advice.

Here is the issue, for me. I visited some sites of forum members. To see the type of photography they like and do exceedingly well.

Some of their work is more than excellent.
But not for me.

I, unfortunately, do not do that type of photography.

Life is not necessarily all ordered and pretty.
It does not stand still for the photographer.

I, too, have visited some of the places where the photographs were taken.

They are missing something vital, in my opinion. People.

I saw photos from China. None, if any, people. China!

I posted different categories of photos that I took.
I thank you for your opinions.

I cannot do ' correct ' or 'clean ' nice/pretty photography.

There is another world out there. My kind of world.
My kind of photography. Not windows, canals, stand-still bars.

But life, as it is lived. Up/down. Hope/despair. Hard. Untidy.
Not all beautifully pruned and arranged gardens. and definitely not a world
devoid of people and their lives.

I do not want world where there are no crowds.
I do not want a beautiful landscape without the people.

I am very bad at those things. They do not move me at all.

I do not care about beautiful picture perfect places and canals.

The following is my kind of world. This is my kind of photography.

Good or bad. This is, in the final analysis, what I am. What I love. Where I and my photography belong. This is my world.

 

[Asher Kelman]

The camera as a lantern!

The following is my kind of world. This is my kind of photography.

Good or bad. This is, in the final analysis, what I am. What I love. Where I and my photography belong. This is my world.

Fahim,

I salute you! While lots of us do indeed gather all the architecture of man and the carvings of nature in a pristine form, your view is that of the overjoyed man holding up a lantern to teeming life in every corner of our fragile, multicultural miraculous planet.

Let's get it straight, beauty is great, but often brings out superficial values to our detriment. You do not lack appreciation of the flowers of the land or the beautiful shape of a young woman or the splendor of snow capped mountains. But that is only a richness of your enjoyment but not it's driver. You're addicted to joy and struggle in man. I think it comes from a society that treasure and respects it's elders and struggles to protect the new generations from superficiality.

Still, it's wonderful to have guys like Jim Galli who can do portraits of old cars, and weathered friends Ben Rubinstein who's engrossed in the mystique of old Jerusalem, Jerome Marot gives us views of people, frozen in some existential questionnaire, Daniel Shaefer isolates his subjects, almost surgically, Cem Usakligil series on portals interviews us on the nature of mysterious psychological spaces, past present and future and so many more that I could name for pages. I wouldn't want to miss one picture shared here!

It's this eclectic mix of work makes this small community rich.

Thanks for bringing to us life, as it is, in every community, with great love and no pretense.

Asher

 

[fahim mohammed]

Thank you Asher, for those very generous words.

Yes, we indeed have very very talented photogs on OPF each with their distinct and wonderful brand of photography. Something to be cherished.

Regards.

 

[Jerome Marot]

They are missing something vital, in my opinion. People.

Not quite.

All good photographs are photographs of people.

Yes, even nicely ordered landscapes, nice and tidy graphical compositions, macro work. They are all photographs of people. They appear to be pictures of things, but they are not.

The purpose of a photograph is to convey an emotion. Your pictures, obviously, do that. Because you relate to the people you take pictures of. There lies the emotion. A capture of a beautiful landscape is just the same: it conveys the emotion of the person watching that unspoilt part of nature. You are not naive enough to believe someone like Ansel Adams took pictures of mountain tops, are you?

Things do not have emotions. Only people do.

​

 

[Asher Kelman]

Not quite.

All good photographs are photographs of people.

Yes, even nicely ordered landscapes, nice and tidy graphical compositions, macro work. They are all photographs of people. They appear to be pictures of things, but they are not.

The purpose of a photograph is to convey an emotion. Your pictures, obviously, do that. Because you relate to the people you take pictures of. There lies the emotion. A capture of a beautiful landscape is just the same: it conveys the emotion of the person watching that unspoilt part of nature. You are not naive enough to believe someone like Ansel Adams took pictures of mountain tops, are you?

Things do not have emotions. Only people do.

​

This is an amazingly satisfying conversation which reflects higher level thinking. This exchange reminds me of the father trying to respond to an argument between two factors in his family. To both he admits, "What you say is right!" To the retort that "That's wrong!", he said, yes, "That's right too!"

What happens is a shift of context. Fahim deals with what "is". The direct immersion in vibrant human life is is passion. Still, understanding the picture of a pristine landscape is appreciating the commonality between all of us as appreciative human beings for the gifts we have been given. In a way, when one goes into a Cathedral, a Grand Mosque of a Great Synagogue one is dealing with the same commonalities of human needs to appreciate what the have as an inheritance. So we must recognize that photography only works for creating an invisible crowd of humans who are connected with us whenever we look at a great scene of any size or kind.

Still, Fahim's preference is for actually observing the people experienced whereas Art merely requires the commonality that a person has engraved their uniquely human imagination into a physical form we can share. Art we value, cannot exist as art without sentients to appreciate the feelings built into them.

Asher

 

[fahim mohammed]

Originally Posted by fahim mohammed:
"They are missing something vital, in my opinion. People."

In response:

Not quite.

......

Hi Jerome.

My statement could have 3 possibilities: ( we shall discount a 4th possibilty as having a nil probability ).

My statement:

1. It is correct.
2. It is incorrect.
3. It is partially correct and partially incorrect.

' Not quite ' as a response does not indicate, to me, which of the 3 conditions mentioned above is being referred to.

Any further discussion is predicated on you kindly providing an elucidation to my query. In case of condition 3, I would be grateful if you indicate which part of the statement is correct and which part incorrect.

Kindest regards.

 

[Jerome Marot]

Answer 3. The sentence is true for you, because you perceive the picture as missing people, but other photographers may nevertheless perceive the presence of people in the same capture.

But I understand your point. You prefer pictures which directly illustrate human activities.