Is Hy6 nearer?

[leonardobarreto.com]

http://luminous-landscape.com/whatsnew/
"Medium format fans have reason to be pleased"...
"production for late July"...

Not a lot of information and I can't even find Rollei or Rolleiflex's website. They seam to be as bad a Mamiya in the PR department. (I forgot, does the back rotate? if not the waist level view finders will be useless)

... also, when will we have a 6x6 ff sensor digital back? or not...

 

[leonardobarreto.com]

I learned today that sales people are already gathering to get ready to bring this system to market.

I also will probably be at the presentation here in NY of the Hasselblad H3 and may report on the system and the anticipated 28mm -- the first AF lens this wide for digital back that I know about --.

Things get interesting because Mamiya is also coming with a 28mm of its own that seams to be a good match or even better than the H3.

I am considering the concept of making a blog attached to leonardobarreto.com to report specifically about medium format gear as it reaches Manhattan. There is a possibility that I get to play a bit with this toys in the future and regularly report on what I found out.

The idea is that, after info has been posted, we can all discuss the relevance here in the OpenForums.

It is important for me to maintain a distance with the dealers but, at the same time show them that there is so little information on the web about this high end devices, that is in their interest to share the news. They seam to get this and we will begin with the H3 as a test first run.

This is just an idea, but I don't see why it couldn't work... what do you think?

 

[Asher Kelman]

Hi Leonardo,

The cameras are real and will be available shortly. My best information is that at this moment the distributers are being trained. So I'd guess that it will be in July or so gthat the Cameras will appear for most people. I would not be surpised if one of two places have something to show in 2-3 weeks.

Asher

 

[Thierry Hagenauer]

Dear All,

the Sinar Hy6 was presented to our distributors in June during 4 different trainings, with 4 working cameras, in Switzerland, in Bangkok and in Miami.

During the current month and in August the Sinar Hy 6 will be under intensive beta-testing.

The demo units for distributors shall normally be shipped in September, and the release for endusers is planed mid of October / begin of November '07.

Best regards,
Thierry

 

[leonardobarreto.com]

I was told here in NY by a distributor that July 19 they will "release" the system, but I'm not sure if this is for sale or a presentation. Now that you mention this, it will probably be the latter.

By the way, what lenses does this have in the wide department. Something like a 28mm of H3 and 645AFD?. Also it seams to be a lack of PC wide lenses...

Dear All,

the Sinar Hy6 was presented to our distributors in June during 4 different trainings, with 4 working cameras, in Switzerland, in Bangkok and in Miami.

During the current month and in August the Sinar Hy 6 will be under intensive beta-testing.

The demo units for distributors shall normally be shipped in September, and the release for endusers is planed mid of October / begin of November '07.

Best regards,
Thierry

 

[Thierry Hagenauer]

Dear Leonardo,

There will certainly not be any release of the Sinar Hy6 by July 19th: I am speaking here about the Sinar branded camera, and can't specualte on others.

As for the available lenses, the following are fitting the Sinar Hy6:

- Schneider AF S-Angulon 2.8/50 HFT PQS
- Schneider AF Xenotar 2.8/80 PQS
- Schneider AF Tele-Xenar 4/150 HFT-PQS
- Schneider AF Tele-Xenar 2.8/180 PQ
- Schneider AF Variogon 4.6/60-140 PQS

- Schneider Super-Angulon 3.5/40 HFT-PQ
- Schneider Apo-Tele-Xenar 4/300 HFT-PQ
- Schneider Variogon 5.6/140-280 HFT-PQ

- Schneider Xenotar 2.8/80 HFT-PQS
- Schneider Apo-Symmar 4/90 HFT PQS

- Zeiss Distagon 4/50 EL HFT PQ
- Zeiss Planar 2/110 HFT PQ
- Zeiss Makro Planar 4/120 HFT PQS
- Zeiss Sonnar 4/150 HFT PQS
- Zeiss Sonnar 5.6/250 HFT PQS

As well as the new coming Schneider AFD lenses:

- Schneider AFD 2.8/35 PQS
- Schneider AFD 2.8/50 PQS
- Schneider AFD 2.8/80 PQS
- Schneider AFD 2.8/120 macro PQS
- Schneider AFD 4.0/150 PQS
- Schneider AFD 2.8/180 PQ
- Schneider AFD 4.6/60-140 PQS

At the moment there are no other lenses planed.

Best regards,
Thierry

I was told here in NY by a distributor that July 19 they will "release" the system, but I'm not sure if this is for sale or a presentation. Now that you mention this, it will probably be the latter.

By the way, what lenses does this have in the wide department. Something like a 28mm of H3 and 645AFD?. Also it seams to be a lack of PC wide lenses...

 

[leonardobarreto.com]

Thierry

So, nothing wider than 35mm?

 

[Thierry Hagenauer]

Leonardo,

Nothing at the moment: these lenses listed are either already available, or then coming with the release of the Sinar Hy6. This being said: i am asking myself how many are really using a shorter lens, how many are really needing it, and how much is such an issue part of a marketing hype. In fact, is a 35mm so much longer than a 28mm?

Thierry

 

[Michael Fontana]

Gruezi Thierry

thanks for joining here, at OPF.

>In fact, is a 35mm so much longer than a 28mm?<

In some categories of photography, it's a huge difference!
Beeing aware about the fact, the wider it goes, the physical problems just raise; for my job, architecture photography, one has to go wider than 35. Its 24/36-aequivalent would be 27 mm! (Vs 21 mm of the 28)

regards, Michael

 

[Thierry Hagenauer]

Gruezi Michael,
!

Thanks for your warm welcome.

Yes, I agree and am aware of the difference between a 28 and a 35 in architecture: it is really needed in this field, fully agreed. I have been assisting photographer Rainer Viretlböck in his shooting of the new Bangkok International Airport last year, and indeed we did use this 28mm Sinaron Digital HR (a fantastic lens, BTW, sharp from full open already!), although Rainer did as well and sometimes make use of a longer lens and simply shifted it a few mm and stiched the 2 or 3 files together: it is a very fast and easy process to compensate the "wideness" of a lens as well.

No, what I wanted to raise, is the question of how many photographers, from those who are "screaming" about a 28mm or not happy with a 35mm, how many do really use this 28mm? It is a big issue wherever you read about MF digital, but among all the photographers I know and to whom I asked this question, most of them told me that they would never need it.

For me, it seems THE issue currently (if we leave the architecture photography apart) which everybody seems to care off and ask for, like "Live Video" became an issue with digital backs on MF and for location shots (which I don't understand either!), or like other functions have been so necessary to all, and when you in fact ask and then see photogrpahers working, they won't ever use it. That's why I allowed myself to speak about a "marketing hype".

And I do not even speak here about the price of such a 28mm lens, understood of good and usable quality (at open aperture), without distorsion (Hasselbald has been very clever in marketing this software tool to correct a lens distorsion, IMO), High-Res to cope with the increasing resoltuion of the digital backs (I suggest here to make a comparison of a "normal" digital 28mm, which has already been corrected and optimized for sensors, and a 28mm HR: you would be surprised), etc ....

But as said, I understand the necessity for architecture, and I know also that those photographers are ready to put the prize for the requested quality.

Kind regards,
Thierry

Gruezi Thierry

thanks for joining here, at OPF.

>In fact, is a 35mm so much longer than a 28mm?<

In some categories of photography, it's a huge difference!
Beeing aware about the fact, the wider it goes, the physical problems just raise; for my job, architecture photography, one has to go wider than 35. Its 24/36-aequivalent would be 27 mm! (Vs 21 mm of the 28)

regards, Michael

 

[nicolas claris]

Leonardo,

Nothing at the moment: these lenses listed are either already available, or then coming with the release of the Sinar Hy6. This being said: i am asking myself how many are really using a shorter lens, how many are really needing it, and how much is such an issue part of a marketing hype. In fact, is a 35mm so much longer than a 28mm?

Thierry

Bonjour Thierry (and Michael!)

as you may know, I'm not an expert in MF and even less in LF, but the need of wide and even ultra wide angle lenses is not only for architectural shots...
Single shot is also needed, impossible to stich the one below like pics, and I'm terribly lacking resolution for such:

I won't go back to film for all the same reasons you have very well explained already, I guess I'll have to wait…

BTW, the pic shown here was shot with a Canon 1DS II body and Sigma 12-24 lens @ 12mm - ISO 200 - ƒ11 -1/800, from helicopter…

 

[Asher Kelman]

So,
Michael, Nicolas, Thierry, Leonardo, Jack Flesher or anyone else, what MF lenses exsit for this wide angle need?

AFAIK

1. 28mm Hasselblad H3

2. 28mm Mamiya here or ? coming not sure??

use of adapters.

use of different camera body:

One can use these special multipurpose cameras for most MF backs, may not use all Auto feautres

Alpa MF

Apo-Digitar 5.6/24mm XL Price: $4,075.00 at Badger Graphic here

"This lens offers an angle of 100° and covers with its image circle of 60 mm todays digital sensors up to 36x48 mm (without shift reserve). The resulting angles are nearly 90° horizontal and 100° diagonal. The extraordinary short flange focal distance and the travel of only 1.6 mm from “infinity” to 60 cm make high demand on all components used. The special ALPA helical ramp fulfills this together with ease in handling and manipulation. The lens can get ordered in standard Copal 0 or Schneider electronic shutter.
Remarks for a proper handling
The lens features a special mechanical part. The lens appears flexible in its mount. Please never pull, overwind or tilt the lens in its mount or load it with heavy filters or shades etc.
The lens must be stored in infinity position when not used.
The mechanical geometry limits the possible movements in shift cameras. Mount or demount the lens always in shift position 0 of the camera and shift it never over the mechanical limit stops."

Apo-Sironar 4.5/28mm $5,674.00 at Badger Graphic here

Asher

 

[nicolas claris]

Asher
they write $5,674.00, duh!
DO you have a discount ?-)

This lens looks very fragile, I wonder if it could be embarked in an helicopter!

 

[Asher Kelman]

Nicolas,

I think it's the 24mm which is less-rugged. The 28mm is quite solid and there are no special safety requirements.

For shots from a helicopter you would use the wonderful aerial handles and would be happy as a prince.

The moneyy for the lens would not be any expense rather some of your money locked away. The lens will not lose it's value to any extent unless you actually drop it from the helicopter!

If I type much more I might even buy it so I'd better quit here! We really need to hear from Rainer on wide angle.

Asher

 

[leonardobarreto.com]

When you consider to buy a MF system -- or any other format -- you have to see if it will take you to any destination your career will ever take you, for example, I know that Mamiya will have a 28mm and that makes me more secure. Will I buy one? probably not, but I could just rent it in need-to-use basis. I could rent an Alpa or Cambo wide, but the option of just changing the lens while conserving the reflex advantages is a real point.

The question regarding this new system and wide angle lenses is not just casual, but based in my curiosity regarding the architecture of the Hy6.

Specifically I'm thinking about the choice of having a 6x6 film/digital format as a starting point. This mirrors somehow the Canon Nikon direction choices where Nikon has -- as for now -- decided to use a DX format for all its cameras and Canon went full frame. Olympus proposition is that digital deserves a design from scratch to start the digital age with no evolutionary remains that would slow down future evolutions -- similar to what Apple did with the OSX --.

The Hy6 is a camera that deals with an image circle of 6 x 6 proportions, a 28mm lens that would trow that size of retro focus image could not compete in at leas one of this factors with the H3/Mamiya type 28mm

a) price/size (size is not that important, but interesting)
b) image lack of distortion
c) image quality

In other words, the system is not as efficient because it has set the goals of -- doing 6x6 film and 6x45 digital -- that have a draw back force stronger than the benefit (people will really not be interested in shooting film with this camera since the future of film is less and less relevant)

anyway just some thoughts

 

[Asher Kelman]

The 35mm lens on a 6x6 camera is about a 21mm lens on the 1Ds. The 28 mm just brings us a little lower to 17mm thereabouts.

Since Nicolas is shooting from a helicopter, there should be no problem framing the shot from a slightle greater distance to frame the ship and ocean exactly as required with a 35mm lens. If I'm wrong, then where did I make the mistake?
For marine or other architecture, we cannot always just move back! Some shots are indoors may work withb stitching using a MF digital back:

1. Handheld: not probably good enough
   
2. Tripod mounted with swinging through the nodal point: good
   
3. Sliding stitching back to hold a Digital back on a LF camera. Pick the lens with the right angle of view. Perfect
   
4. Zork with MF: pretty good and easy.

Asher

 

[leonardobarreto.com]

Hasselblad is counting on photographers that want to have the 28mm of the close architecture H3 to purchase the new -- more expensive -- H3 bodies and their brand of digital back, so the fact that a system offers one or not is a relevant one. Mamiya doesn't have one yet, but they seem to be about to release it and according to what I have heard it may even be better than the Fujifilm/Hasselblad one.

So, the competition for the wide end of the MF optics will get competitive and the Hy6 will have the disadvantage of having to support the large image circle of a full frame six by six.

One solution for the Hy6 is to do a "DX" 28mm of the same size and competitive price of the other two systems, the other alternative is to say that "people really don't need one", and the other is to come up with a lens that is a 28mm for film and digital and performs as well as the Mamiya and Fujifilm digital dedicated 28mm's which technically could be difficult.

 

[nicolas claris]

The 35mm lens on a 6x6 camera is about a 21mm lens on the 1Ds. The 28 mm just brings us a little lower to 17mm thereabouts.

Since Nicolas is shooting from a helicopter, there should be no problem framing the shot from a slightle greater distance to frame the ship and ocean exactly as required with a 35mm lens. If I'm wrong, then where did I make the mistake?
For marine or other architecture, we cannot always just move back! Some shots are indoors may work withb stitching using a MF digital back:

1. Handheld: not probably good enough
   
2. Tripod mounted with swinging through the nodal point: good
   
3. Sliding stitching back to hold a Digital back on a LF camera. Pick the lens with the right angle of view. Perfect
   
4. Zork with MF: pretty good and easy.

Asher

Bonjour Asher

then the 24mm on MF would suit me better (despite it's fragileness).

Stitching is an option only for static images with nothing moving (unless wished for special effect). It works pretty well for outdoor shots but for interiors, these needs to be pretty large, even in a 25 x 10 meter room, it gets tricky…

Doing the same shot (as the one I posted above) with a longer lens from more far would had make it completely different, here my search was to use the "traditionnal" distortion of super WA to emphasis the speed and power, BTW giving little scale to the boat (I mean to be difficult to really know the size of the power boat).

I could have made this shot with a 500 mm (or a 50 or a 90 etc.), it should have been interesting but completely different.

If the trick would only to be as close or as far as needed, a 50 mm would cover all photographers needs. In the phase of framing/creating we do need all these different lenses. Whatever the subject is.


This maybe be my personnal work during my summer holidays…

 

[Asher Kelman]

Doing the same shot (as the one I posted above) with a longer lens from more far would had make it completely different, here my search was to use the "traditionnal" distortion of super WA to emphasis the speed and power, BTW giving little scale to the boat (I mean to be difficult to really know the size of the power boat).

I could have made this shot with a 500 mm (or a 50 or a 90 etc.), it should have been interesting but completely different.

If the trick would only to be as close or as far as needed, a 50 mm would cover all photographers needs. In the phase of framing/creating we do need all these different lenses. Whatever the subject is.


This maybe be my personnal work during my summer holidays…

Well Nicolas, mon tres cher ami!

The trick is to see how few lenses one can work with creatively. I'd love to see you have the 24mm and a 35MP back! Wow!

Asher

 

[nicolas claris]

This could be read as a call for a test in real life !-)

Well Nicolas, mon tres cher ami!

The trick is to see how few lenses one can work with creatively. I'd love to see you have the 24mm and a 35MP back! Wow!

Asher

Gentlemen from marketing departments at MF digital back, lens and body manufacturers, this could be read as a call for a test in real life !-)

I am ready…

 

[Asher Kelman]

The posts dealing with advantages of the Mamiya syatem with its 6x45 framing and 28mm lens are moved here .

This thread continues to discuss the new Hy6 platform and also availablity etc.

Asher