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Joseph Holmes workspace examples

M

Marian Howell

New member
here are several pairs of images processed to show the use of Joseph Holmes' color space, as discussed in Diane's thread from last week. picking the images to use was hard, so i chose several. as i said in the earlier thread, this is very shot-dependent!
i opened the raws in c1 using magne's 5d hi-sat profile. adjustments of wb and exposure were made and these settings did not change. the image was converted twice to 16-bit tiff, once into argb and once into dcam3. these 2 images were opened in ps and copies were saved with their assigned +20 chroma variant. the original tiff and its +20 variant were then combined into 1 file, side by side. this file was then put into 8-bit mode, converted to srgb, and saved as jpg. no other work was done on these files.
in retrospect, i wish i had done a higher variant to exaggerate the difference between each of the the pairs. by the time they get to web size the difference is more subtle. the usual goal is the print! i'm posting in the thread a couple of the examples, but more can be found here
as i described in the earlier thread, i do my bulk processing into argb which gives me access to the argb chroma variant set i have in photoshop. if i really intend to work on an image, i reprocess from raw in DxO, using DCam3.
69766954.jpg


69766956.jpg


69766950.jpg


69766953.jpg
 
Asher Kelman

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Marion,

This is so helpful. In my point of view, the C1 dcam3 +20% Variant is the most impressive in both cases but I can see that context of the feature would be important.

I could imagine painting in one version selectively to a particular part of a picture.

Hmmm!

Very powerful and clean.

Asher
 
M

Marian Howell

New member
Asher Kelman said:
Marion,

This is so helpful. In my point of view, the C1 dcam3 +20% Variant is the most impressive in both cases but I can see that context of the feature would be important.

I could imagine painting in one version selectively to a particular part of a picture.

Hmmm!

Very powerful and clean.

Asher
Click to expand...

and very quick to do!. and yes, using them as layer masks and the like is just the tip of the iceberg...
 
M

Marian Howell

New member
thanks Stephen.
your example with the houses on the hillside is excellent too, and really shows off both magne's profile and chrome 100! could you possibly a shot with the same variant assigned to the generic C1 profile converted to the chrome space? that would highlight the difference between magne's and the generic one.
i think we have similar tastes in color :)
 
M

Marian Howell

New member
just to note, my understanding is that EktaSpace was designed for scanned photos. i think that's one of the reasons for Holmes' new spaces called DCam. and one really needs the chroma variant set for use in photoshop to quickly appreciate the full benefits. i think EktaSpace space is free (at least it used to be) and can be downloaded from Joseph Holmes site with the variants.
good to know that Bibble can convert to custom color spaces.
 
H

Herman Teeuwen

New member
> good to know that Bibble can convert to custom color spaces

Output spaces in Bibble are still fixed. I hope they will allow for custom spaces in the near future.

Two notes on the free Ektaspace PS 5:
- it includes a gamma 2.2 curve instead of Joseph's proprietary TRC included in his commercial profiles;
- it does not include chroma variants, only the base/master profile.
 
Asher Kelman

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Eric Hyman said:
FWIW if you are intrestersted in experieemnting, Bibble 4.9 has John's Ektaspace bult in as one of its working space profiles and it can easily be made your default.

Eric
www.bibblelabs.com
Click to expand...

Well Eric,

How about it? Is there a way for us to add our purchased Holmes' spaces in Bibble in the future?

Asher
 
H

Herman Teeuwen

New member
ACR/Lightroom: ProPhoto RGB >> Holmes (as suggested by Thomas Knoll on Adobe forums)
Bibble: idem
Capture One: Directly
LightZone: Directly

Unfortunately, the histogram in Capture One/LightZone is not based on output space which makes it impossible to check for channel clipping in RC. I believe it's on LighZone's/Fabio Riccardi's agenda though.
 
Cem_Usakligil

Cem_Usakligil

Well-known member
Hi Herman,

I confess I am a bit confused re. your remark:
"Output spaces in Bibble are still fixed. I hope they will allow for custom spaces in the near future."

I have downloaded a trial version of Bibble Pro 4.9 and there is an option under the color management that allows choosing a custom out profile. When I change the profile there, I can also see the image preview and the histogram being adjusted. So what am I missing? :).

Regards,

Cem
 
H

Herman Teeuwen

New member
Hi Cem,

In Bibble ( 4.9d) you can choose from a list of 15 predefined output profiles, which is I admit considerably more than ACR :) , but there's no option to choose for any other custom profiles.

Therefore you cannot do a direct conversion from RC to e.g. one of the commercial Holmes profiles. Instead you'll have to use the wide ProPhoto RGB as an intermediate step.
 
Cem_Usakligil

Cem_Usakligil

Well-known member
Herman Teeuwen said:
Hi Cem,

In Bibble you can choose from 15 predefined output profiles, which is I admit considerably more than ACR :) , but there's no option to choose for any other custom profiles.
Click to expand...
But that is what I don't understand. I can choose any custom profile I wish, not only predefined ones??

Cheers,

Cem
 
Cem_Usakligil

Cem_Usakligil

Well-known member
Cem Usakligil said:
But that is what I don't understand. I can choose any custom profile I wish, not only predefined ones??

Cheers,

Cem
Click to expand...
Now I am starting to understand a bit where my confusion is coming from. You apparently refer to the 15 presets of the "Work Space" as the "output profiles". I, OTOH, refer to the "Custom Out Profile" which can be chosen freely.

If I get this Bibble thing right, the "working space" is used for internal calculations before an output image is generated. When the image is output, then the color profile is determined by the one chosen under "custom out profile". So basically, one can choose ProPhoto as the working space and assign any custom profile to the output. Is this not what you wanted? Or am I even further from the truth? :))

Cem
 
Cem_Usakligil

Cem_Usakligil

Well-known member
Herman,

Thanks again for the explanation. Again, my confusion was due the fact that you have mentioned output profiles whereas Bibble calls them working spaces. I understand now why I misunderstood you to start with :)

Cem

Edited due to an edit in Herman's last post prior to this one (LOL)
 
H

Herman Teeuwen

New member
Bibble converts from the " Work Space" to "Custom Out Profile" on export.

This gives you 2 options to deal with Homes' commercial profiles:

1. As the "Work Spaces" are fixed/preset, you should choose ProPhoto RGB for "Work Space" and set " Custom Out Profile" to one of the commercial Holmes profiles or,
2. In Bibble export using ProPhoto and do the conversion from ProPhoto RGB to Holmes in PS.

For what it's worth, option 1 is KodakCMS conversion (included in Bibble), option 2 is Adobe ACE.
 
H

Herman Teeuwen

New member
So the Bibble appoach may seem an extra step/conversion. We've learned to keep color space conversions to a minimum, but is it really an extra conversion:

Bibble:
Camera space >> Working space (e.g. ProPhoto RGB) >> Holmes = 2 conversions

LightZone:
Camera space >> LightZone's internal linear gamma wide gamut space >> Holmes = 2 conversions

If I'm correct, Capture One does something similar.

ACR:
Camera space >> ACR's internal gamma 1.0 version of ProPhoto >> ACR's output space (ProPhoto) >> Holmes = 3 conversions

Please feel free to shoot.
 
E

Eric Hyman

New member
Herman Teeuwen said:
So the Bibble appoach may seem an extra step/conversion. We've learned to keep color space conversions to a minimum, but is it really an extra conversion:

Bibble:
Camera space >> Working space (e.g. ProPhoto RGB) >> Holmes = 2 conversions
Click to expand...

Not quite herman, try, "1". From the previous message I'm not quite sure you understand how bibble works.

Bibble allows you to pick from 15 or so *WORKING* spaces (Note output space)You can thus use Holmes *AS* your working space, Which was the whole point of adding it...Folks who want to use it can do so without another conversion. By default the image is output in your working space, although you also have the option of specifying a sperate *output* profile that can be transformed to at the end of processing (For instance to output for a given printer)

Hope that makes sense.

Eric
 
H

Herman Teeuwen

New member
Eric Hyman said:
Not quite herman, try, "1". From the previous message I'm not quite sure you understand how bibble works.

Bibble allows you to pick from 15 or so *WORKING* spaces (Note output space)You can thus use Holmes *AS* your working space, Which was the whole point of adding it...Folks who want to use it can do so without another conversion. By default the image is output in your working space, although you also have the option of specifying a sperate *output* profile that can be transformed to at the end of processing (For instance to output for a given printer)

Hope that makes sense.

Eric
Click to expand...

Hi Eric,

Try typing Bibble in any of the forums and eventually Eric will show up :) This is a compliment by the way.

I wasn't referring to the use of free Ektaspace (PS 5), which is included in "Working Spaces" in Bibble. I CAN choose Ektaspace as my working space.

I was referring/explaining the use of Holmes' commercial profiles (like Chrome 100, DCam etc.) in Bibble.

If I want to get an image into one of Holmes' commercial spaces using Bibble, I'll have to use ProPhoto RGB for "Working Space" in Bibble and e.g. Chrome 100, Dcam x as "Custom Out Profile", OR convert to ProPhoto by using ProPhoto "Working Space" in Bibble and do the conversion to Chrome 100, Dcam x in Photoshop.

Herman
 
E

Eric Hyman

New member
Herman Teeuwen said:
Hi Eric,

I wasn't referring to the use of free Ektaspace (PS 5), which is included in "Working Spaces" in Bibble. I CAN choose Ektaspace as my working space.

I was referring/explaining the use of Holmes' commercial profiles (like Chrome 100, DCam etc.) in Bibble.

Herman
Click to expand...

My Bad, I misunderstood. You are correct.

Overall I wouldn't get too caught up on "how many" conversions are going on within your chosen raw app...Most work in 16 bit, and as long as you never go back up from a smaller space, the loss if any is marginal....just make sure that it internally is using a wide space, or choose a wide working space if you have a choice. Factor in also that there are lilely lots of other color space operations going on within the raw pipeline that you as an outsideer may not be aware of (For instance A trip to lab for sharpening).

Eric
 
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