Leica M8 announcement posted

[scott kirkpatrick]

at the Leica-Camera_users forum: http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/10045-new-info-my-dealer.html?posted=1#post101576

The details will be posted on Friday, but the summary which is shared in the posting is that

hardware fix (requires camera be sent to Solms) believed to eliminate the streaking and ghosting.

two free IR filters (in February 2007) given to each purchaser of a new M8, in any of 6 officially supported sizes.

And finally, those who have to send in their cameras for the hardware fix are entitled to purchase a Leica lens from the factory at 30% discount.

scott

 

[Daniel Harrison]

ooooh,
There is some nice free stuff in there Hope that it fixes everything up, I do wonder how the leica fans will take the filters though - I understood that they do not like using them, and do you loose any light with these filters?

 

[Asher Kelman]

Hi Scott,

It's almost worth buying an M8 just to get a brand new Leica lens at 30% off! That would mean that if you are in the market for a new 75mm 1.4 or the 16-18-21mm Tri-elmar f4, you'd save US$1200-US$1300!

This is getting very interesting!

Asher

 

[Daniel Harrison]

yes but it means that you are going to have to act quickly if you want that 30% off Asher, you need to find a camera that will need to go back to the factory, the new ones won't need to

 

[scott kirkpatrick]

do you loose any light with these filters?

No, the filter factor is 1.0 and the filters look completely clear head-on. At a sufficiently large angle, they look red, but that is another story.

scott

 

[Petter Stahre]

I think the way Leica handles the IR-problem is really bad. They tell their users to start eating pills instead of healing the disease. The first two pills is paid for by Leica.

In their press release ( http://www.leica-camera.us/news/news/1/3682.html ) Leica states that the problem is the thickness of the glass cover of the sensor, which also acts as an IR-filter.

And here is the real problem I think ... in order to correct the problem the sensor should probably be equipped with a thicker glass. At least some kind of redesign to the sensor seems to be needed. (If not - how come this isn't a problem for the competitors?) But doing so for the already delivered cameras would cost to much. Ok, so the next best thing would be to start equipping the new cameras with enhanced sensors. But this would of course mean that people who already bought the camera would wan't to be compensated in some way. And offering them this filter-fix, while the new cameras would have an enhanced sensor, wouldn't feel good for the early adopters no matter how much Leica ensured that it's "same same but different".

So ... probably better to market a band-aid solution today, and then quietly make the next release (M8 mark II? equipped with a better solution.

Note: I'm not a user of the camera - but I was a potential buyer. I don't know how many times this problem would potentially occur for MY kind of photography. But it shure has happened as we can see from many test images on the web. And what about the images that are just nearly free of the IR-problem? Well, if we miss to see it then there is no problem, or?

To me it's a matter of trusting the camera. I wouldn't want to use a camera in a way that I will have to check every file for odd colors. It takes away most of the fun from the process.

Leicas solution is to force their users to have an extra filter on the lens. I'm not saying their "fix" doesn't work for the IR-problem. Not at all - I think it will work perfectly! I just think it's a band-aid solution. Not a cure. And this makes me significantly less interested in the M8 which in it's market segment should be the superior product from a respected brand. This is not a solution where photographic freedom, creativity and technical image quality is top priority. $omething el$e $eem$ to be more intere$ting. A solution not worthy the Leica brand in my humble opinion.

Cheers,
Petter

PS. I hope I'm not offending anyone by being quite harsh in my comments on this, I'm just seriously striked by the Leica announcement. If this is the way to design a $4.800 camera, why haven't Canon/Nikon/... thought about it?

 

[Asher Kelman]

Just to balance things, Petter, and you might know that I am a longtime Canon shooter, Leica is not alone in what you complain of: compromise!

Why are people using Leica, Olympus and Zeiss wide angle lenses on their DSLR's?

Each system has major stengths and weakness because of MFRs compromises. Leica wanted the finest B&W images, their hallmark!

Asher

 

[Petter Stahre]

You are very right Asher.

But you choose your lenses knowing what the limits are. At least you can try them out first and discuss their pros/cons on the web and in stores.

The IR-problem on the other hand is quite a big design flaw which no buyer had information about and which (to my view) Leica is unwilling to fully correct. Instead they offer the band-aid.

But I understand what you mean. And I'm aware of that this is quite a specific problem. Still I think the technicians at Leica don't like this solution. But I'm shure people at their economy departement does.

Regards,
Petter

 

[Ken Tanaka]

I am in 1,000% agreement with your remarks, Petter.

Having worked on this camera for 2+ years Leica was under intense financial pressure to get the M8 into the market this year. They are certainly to be commended for overcoming the countless technical barriers they have probably hurdled thus far. But the camera is not quite ready. Leica could not have not known that the M8 is one jump away from being a nightscope. Nevertheless the marketing and finance folks, probably eager to get some cash flow from the product and tired of hearing engineers whine, pushed it out the door. They took a bet, the results of which are yet to be decided.

As you noted, it's hard to use an instrument that you cannot rely upon. It's hard enough for newcomers to rangefinder photography to master an M, even under ideal conditions. The fact that the M8 does not see the world in the same way as you do makes it very unpredictable and nearly impossible to truly master.

The unfortunate part of Leica's "bet" is that the "digital M" is now indelibly tattooed with a negative first impression. They underestimated the power of the Internet to quickly propagate bad news. Even if Leica manages to remedy all of the M8's shortcomings sales of future digital Ms, if any, will have to overcome these first impressions.

Personally, I'm eager to have a digital M. My M7, as my only remaining film camera, is still a pleasure to use. But film is becoming a tiresome and increasingly expensive, time-consuming medium. Yet it looks like I'll have to wait a bit longer to replace it.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Ken,

So far I give it a thumbs up. We'll shoot side by side, but for now, my impression is that without reading the bad stuff, you would never realize any of it in 99% of your work if you shoot nature, cityscapes, faces or figures! The issue is certain reflecting synthetics mainly.

I have no filters yet to test this out, but essentially, that is solved from what I see and what we have been promised. We'll see soon.

My wonderful 5D and 1DII (with autofocus) use manual MM Zeiss WA lenses and I'm so happy with Canon. Why? Because I can do what I want.

It's still early for me, but I'm not pessimistic about the M8.

We'll have lots of images on line withing several days and then you can judge.

Meanwhile, check out the 2 images shot by will with the M8.

http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1548

Why don't you look at them and start to judge from these snapshots taken just to memorialize putting the battery for the first time in the M8!

Asher

 

[Ken Tanaka]

Ken,

So far I give it a thumbs up. ...

Asher

Delighted to hear it, Asher. I'm sure that you're in good company with many of the first wave of M8 owners. Most of the early image samples posted around the Net, yours included, appear free of technical troubles.

I've decided to hang tight with my M7 and Canon bodies for the time being. Actually, I recently picked up a Canon G7 and have been having a ball with it as a casual camera. It, too, is a 10Mp camera but with no RAW format. It's really a terrific, sharp little camera with the best low-light performance of any pocket camera I've used....for just about 10% the cost of an M8. It's helped to stave off my hunger pangs for a digital rangefinder.

Enjoy the M8, Asher. Perhaps one day soon I'll join you.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Delighted to hear it, Asher. I'm sure that you're in good company with many of the first wave of M8 owners. Most of the early image samples posted around the Net, yours included, appear free of technical troubles.

I've decided to hang tight with my M7 and Canon bodies for the time being. Actually, I recently picked up a Canon G7 and have been having a ball with it as a casual camera. It, too, is a 10Mp camera but with no RAW format. It's really a terrific, sharp little camera with the best low-light performance of any pocket camera I've used....for just about 10% the cost of an M8. It's helped to stave off my hunger pangs for a digital rangefinder.

Enjoy the M8, Asher. Perhaps one day soon I'll join you.

Well Ken ,

It may be that the prettiest lady is the one you are with! Your pictures are wonderful. Of course in a small image, one cannpt be supercritical. Still, your Chicago scen in through the rain swept windshield, was haunting. Hmm I said, that's a wonderful camera to have. Well, that's a 5D and I already have it!

The tall shapes parading taken with the 1DII is again awesome. Yes, as you say the G7, even RAW-less look great!

The test is in the prints and the sizes.

If one is doing B&W, then the M8 or a film camera will excel and be recognized,

Otherwise it is rather subject and style dependant.

So your site, Ken should be a required course, "Camera Choice 101" before people get too opinionated.

Ideally, the actual files are needed so one can make test prints.

Anyway, your images are wonderful, which in itself is bad, since I'll have to look at them all!

Let me know if I can steal some for OPF?

The take home lesson is that you don't marry the first girl that smiles beautifully! Love must be more than that!

Asher

 

[Ken Tanaka]

Thank you for your kind remarks, Asher! They certainly made my day.

I certainly don't want to steer this thread off-topic. As photographers we tend to be fetishists, particularly those of us who are males. ;-) We imagine that, in this case, Leica M glass coupled with a fine camera and sensor will magically buoy our end product. Yes, the camera and lens can make a difference. But their contribution is actually quite limited. Technical excellence offers meager compensation for images that do not convey a photographer's intentions.

I have little doubt that, if Leica is able to tidy the digital M, I will eventually get one. But until then my M7 and, more frequently, my G7 will certainly satisfy my need for a small, high-performance camera. When it comes to casual candid photography the best camera is the one you have at the moment.

I wonder what camera(s) many of the renowned photographers who popularized the Leica M in the mid-20th century would use today if they were just starting out?

 

[Asher Kelman]

Hi Ken,

One's friend or spouse is the most wonderful! At least that should be!

However, choices depend on one self and one's capability and character. Same with cameras. We choose friends, we choose cameras. That is only a beginning. Now we have to make that relationship work!

One can also have great fun and creativity with most any camera. However, if you wish for a certain intimacy given by the best shading and control of highlights and expression of shadow detail and tonality, a Leica system can deliver that.

Of course one can make fine drawing with any pencil, but one with the right hardness and sharp point can deliver the drawing you have in your vision more efficiently.

All this is only relevant to the particular subject, vision, skill and method of printing of an image.

While a G7 gives perfect postcard pictures of landscapes and architecture, can take memorable shots of anything and could even make billboard pictures, it cannot replace a Leica system for intimacy and interrogation of a close subject.

Asher

 

[Rainer Viertlböck]

still its me who is one time again astonished about the internet... about digital cameras and about enthusiasm.
when the digital R was launched many many guys tested it and wrote about how big is the difference to the canons, nikons, mamiya and so on for the 16bit files the R writes ( even not true, the R makes 14bit as all phase/sinar/leaf also ). many posts about that and how much better the dr is from the R therefor.

and now? noone complains about the 8bit compressed files from the m8? dont understand.
so its not longer important the bit depth. good to know. i can go on working with my 5d canon and i will be happy with it ( ,- uups. where is the weather sealing for the M8 ? ... anyway,- the red dot is water resistant- at least i hope so ).