MF, LF, film or digital... and do I want to go there at all?

[Alain Briot]

Well, that would definitely sway my decision-making process...

How about a new policy that asks manufacturers or businesses participating to OPF to offer a discount on their products and services to OPF members? I have offered discounts to OPF members in the past (Mastery DVDs and workshops) and I plan to continue offering them in the future.

I think this is a win-win approach for all of us

 

[Asher Kelman]

Yaron,

The idea that something gets out of date is only relevant if it can no longer do what you did yesterday and were sappy with! Now any wedding or portrait photographer who's work was fine enough to sell, will still do well. After all the tools still does the job. Sure it won t fly you to the moon on excess pixels, but neither will it be diffraction limited because of samller pixels.

For people like us who want to make artistic pictures, LF makes sense. We use scanners in the $600 range and when you enlarge from 4x5 x4 you get 16x20 and for up to that the Epson 700 series, especially the Pro version holds up well. What people do is scan with their Epson and then for the exceptional picture, have it drum scanned.

You can scan with the epson for highlights and shadows and combine. You can also do multiple scans and so reduce noise and increase resolution.

The Epson scanner will not limit your work unless you need to print super-large. Even then, you will likely be content.

Lenses are relatively inexpensive. You will get good advice. You don't need anything new. However, if you bought a 4x5 Tachihara, you would be so happy.

Developing film in a tray is super easy. All you need is a timer!

Use plastic trays for storing food. One for a soak, if recommended, one for developer, one to stop the developing (usually water) and one for fixer. One for washing, or if you can, a special holder with one slot for each sheet of film. You can also have one for adding Photoflo, (to stop streaking or spotting of uneven drying) prior to hanging the film to dry. You will be amazed!

In one go, and for next to nothing, you will leap over the MP madness to a different place.

Asher

 

[Alain Briot]

Yaron,

Something that would help me help you is knowing exactly what you goal is. In my posts I assume that your goals is like mine, to create the finest prints, bar none. That stands behind my choice of equipment.

I understand that cost can be a concern, so I pointed to ways you can "save" money through the purchase of various equipment.

Certainly, as Asher points out, low priced equipment such as the Epson scanners can do the job. They just won't give you the finest quality in the world. There is a reason why one scanner costs $1000 and one $15,000. It's not just the brand, its what it can do.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Yaron,

Something that would help me help you is knowing exactly what you goal is. In my posts I assume that your goals is like mine, to create the finest prints, bar none. That stands behind my choice of equipment.

The fines prints ever will be created from analog as there are no compromises made by digitizing at the very first step, recording the image. Film just has to be large to wipe out any advantages for MF digital. I have chosen 8x10. I have not yet seen any B&W print to match David Goldfarbs prints or those Made by Michael Smith or Paula Chamlee. These are exceptional and there is simply nothing else from a commercially available digital camera back in this artistic class. Of course one gets superlative prints with modern inkjet printers. Still, if you could get Michael to print for you, you would be very impressed.

Certainly, as Asher points out, low priced equipment such as the Epson scanners can do the job. They just won't give you the finest quality in the world. There is a reason why one scanner costs $1000 and one $15,000. It's not just the brand, its what it can do.

Yes we agree on that. Still, for enlarging up to 4x, there is very little difference and whenever it's important for a special image, then it's worth the $40 or so to get a drum scan. Private LF photographers will sometimes do a scan for you for some art exchange or a small fee.

One can also by a used Genesis or other fine scanner for about $2500-3000. So this is a very reasonable option. These scanners are coming to market as people upgrade or else switch to digital. I'll most likely buy a Genesis.

In the meanwhile, lots of people do very well and just use the epson ~700 scanner, reserving high end scans for unusually challenging images.

If I had money to spare I'd still work with the Epson mainly and only use a high end scanner when it was needed...or maybe, I'd splurge and just suppress my guilt!

Asher

 

[Alain Briot]

If I had money to spare I'd still work with the Epson mainly and only use a high end scanner when it was needed...or maybe, I'd splurge and just suppress my guilt!
Asher

I personally splurge, guiltlessly . . . I'm afraid to say.

Fine art prints have been good to me

 

[Georg R. Baumann]

The fines prints ever will be created from analog as there are no compromises made by digitizing at the very first step, recording the image

I beg to differ Asher, on the contrary, there will be a time where digital surpasses analog beyond doubts.

The very same aspects you can observe in electronical instruments like a Moog synth. The mathematical equations and algorithms used to simulate such analog devices were not sufficient enough a few years ago, now, there is a turning point.

Hardware used to be behind software, now it is the other way around, software is behind what hardware can provide, but this is just a matter of time to catch up.

Film just has to be large to wipe out any advantages for MF digital.

Let's talk about that again in a few years time.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

I beg to differ Asher, on the contrary, there will be a time where digital surpasses analog beyond doubts.

What is it to "surpass" in the context of an artistic medium? Oils produce more realistic visual textures than tempera, but people still use tempera, and they are more convenient than encaustic, but there are still encaustic painters. Pastels are fragile, and watercolors and ink are prone to fading, but they haven't disappeared either. Technical pens draw finer lines than charcoal, but people still use charcoal. Film produces a more uniform image than wetplate collodion, but wetplate is enjoying a revival at the moment. Color is more lifelike than black and white, and yet some people prefer black and white.

 

[Alain Briot]

What is it to "surpass" in the context of an artistic medium? Oils produce more realistic visual textures than tempera, but people still use tempera, and they are more convenient than encaustic, but there are still encaustic painters. Pastels are fragile, and watercolors and ink are prone to fading, but they haven't disappeared either. Technical pens draw finer lines than charcoal, but people still use charcoal. Film produces a more uniform image than wetplate collodion, but wetplate is enjoying a revival at the moment. Color is more lifelike than black and white, and yet some people prefer black and white.

Excellent point. In digital printing, glossy papers produce more contrast than matte papers, and yet many artists print on matte papers, or on both matte & glossy (I am one of them).

Alain

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

Excellent point. In digital printing, glossy papers produce more contrast than matte papers, and yet many artists print on matte papers, or on both matte & glossy (I am one of them).

Alain

Me too. While I prefer traditional printing for B&W, the options of printing color on baryta double-weight fiber paper or watercolor paper are real attractions of inkjet.

 

[Alain Briot]

David,

I agree.

I also showed the same photograph printed on glossy and matte papers to students in my seminars, and while the glossy print was more contrasty and the matte print was softer, many preferred the matte print . . .

 

[Asher Kelman]

I beg to differ Asher, on the contrary, there will be a time where digital surpasses analog beyond doubts.

There will be a time when death will be abolished. That's some way off!

Right now, a sheet of 4x5 film holds it's own for low volume work in cost and quality. Film, at his time is a very good solution for those who want the largest fine prints but don't need a high production flow as in fashion or product work.

Asher

 

[Mike Shimwell]

There will be a time when death will be abolished. That's some way off!

Asher

Perhaps check out Aubrey de Grey - he seem to think that may be closer than we think!

I completely agree about the other sentiments, in that MF/LF film provides a viable alternative to digital for low volume work and also an alternative way of working. My children have still not really got past the fact that they can't see the image on the back of my AE1/Zorki immediately after 'capture'.

Asher, you have greatly encouraged me in my search for a LF camera in that it does not need to be expensive...

Now back to processing the cast of 'Alice' that I shot this afternoon.

Mike

 

[Asher Kelman]

Hi Mike,

Jim Galli is the prince of lenses, (little green men hand him old treasures); David Goldfarb makes fantastic B&W images at 8x10, 4x5 and 6x6 as well as hand made albumin prints of beautiful tonality and Will Thompson is the most practical guy out there for building a LF system on a shoe string from eBAy used gear.

We have excellent resources in a few people but they really can be most helpful. You don't have to spend a lot of money! When the film is developed you can contact print, use an enlarger or else scan and print with an inkjet printer. The file of course can be sent to any one of a number of places to speed to you a large archival print.

This is for special work. I am using my 5D for scouting, my brain for thinking and the film for putting it all together.

I'm only just returning to film myself for detail rich scenes with special lighting or else special portraits for exceptional people. Otherwise digital is very efficient.

Asher

 

[Alain Briot]

Actually the fact that 4x5 continues to rival digital capture is the reason why many large format landscape photographers, including myself, continue to use it. I think we have all tried replacing film with a scanning back and realized that it would severely limit the light conditions in which we could shoot since the exposure times become impossibly long in low light-small f-stop conditions.

The Phase One/Sinar/Hasselblad/ etc. backs are the most viable alternative. They are not affected by the slowness of scanning backs, offer far more latitude than film in regards to exposure and have a unique image quality that is very different from film. Resolution is pretty close, and probably undistinguishable up to 30x40.

I do love the image quality. Very different from 4x5. Not better, not worse, just different. A lot has to do with the color balance which you can set wherever you want while with film it is decided by the film manufacturer. Of course you can choose the film, so Velvia will give you a different look than Etkachrome and so on. It's a very important part of composition.

 

[Yaron Lenard]

Wow, one of the first non-intimidating articles I've read...

Calumet Cadet

I'm just not clear if there's a digital back I could rent to put on the back of this thing...

EDIT: Bummer, seems discontinued...

 

[Yaron Lenard]

....ok, how does it work?

I set up the camera, and then I compose the shot on the ground glass. Then I remove the Ground Glass. Then I attach the film back or the digital back or polaroid or whatever... and make the exposure. Is that roughly how it works?

 

[Asher Kelman]

Compose in the mind. Set up the camera to get that on the glass. The latter is often on a spring so that one simply slides in the film.

Now one has to set the aperture, cock the shutter, remove the dark-slide of the film holder, take the picture and then return the dark-slide. However, when the darkslide is returned, turn it round so that the black or white tab, which ever you choose to see for an exposed film, is facing you.

That film can be processed in a tray in 10-20 minutes by you or in a lab for $5-10. That one sheet of film will provide you detail and tonality hard to match.

Not really hard!

However, you really must not look at anything expensive. Trust me, a Tachihara or a used Crown Graphic from Will, if he has one will serve you well. One lens about 150 mm is all you need to start.

Asher

 

[Yaron Lenard]

I'm really eager to work toward film, but I need to get some confidence first - I've worked with nothing but TTL light-meters for twenty years, and digital / histograms for the last eight year.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

You're probably at the point where it makes sense just to meet up with someone who shoots large format and have them take you through the process.

It can be very simple or more complex, depending on the nature of the project. I've done handheld street and candid photography with 4x5" using rangefinder focusing and usually just taking a single meter reading to set aperture and shutter speed (or no reading at all, if the lighting conditions are familiar) and using the camera like a big Leica. I've done still life work that takes all day and involves careful placement of lighting, adjustment of the composition, more extensive camera movements, and Polaroid checks along the way. Portraits, landscapes and architecture are somewhere in the middle and each has its own set of concerns.

 

[Yaron Lenard]

You're probably at the point where it makes sense just to meet up with someone who shoots large format and have them take you through the process.

Yup, I agree... I love the internet, but this kind of learning process can only take me so far... it is time I met someone who actually does this.

On a related note, this must be why there are no online med schools for surgeons...

 

[Mike Shimwell]

As a general cry for help, does anyone know about these cameras? Gice that they are rail based would they be less useful in the field than something like a shen hau or actually similar to use?

Just trying to find a cheap way in...

Arca Swiss view camera
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=310059097233


and sinar norma camera
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=200233262346



thanks for any enlightenment!

Mike

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

An older monorail is an inexpensive way in, and an older Arca-Swiss like the first camera, or a Sinar Norma (the second link actually points to a Fotoman 6x12 panoramic camera) are good cameras, but if you plan to shoot landscapes, they are a bit cumbersome. A Norma also has some collector's value, so you might do better with a later Sinar F or F1, which is a bit lighter and, while not the easiest camera to carry in the field, is designed as a field monorail (i.e., it's lighter than one of the "studio" models, like the Sinar P or the Norma), and there are people who use them that way.

Monorails are generally a bit easier to use than flatbed cameras once they're set up, particularly if they have symmetrical front and rear movements like the Sinar F, F1 or F2, but most of them aren't designed with portability as the first priority (exceptions being the ultralight monorails like the Gowland PocketView or the Toho Shimo, or the Arca-Swiss F-line which can take a collapsible rail, or the Linhof Technikardan).

What do you want to photograph?

 

[Mike Shimwell]

David, thanks.

I am currently quite focused on two projects - one based on local allotment associations (rented land to grow vegetables) and the other a portrait project that I expect to take longer to get off the ground. I tend to shoot landscape when on holiday or if I have time at home, but at present that's not the main priority, though it would be nice to have the option. The allotment project is likely to use a range of formats, being 35mm film, digital as well as LF and the portrait project I am thinking should be primarily LF. I had thought about giong to 10 by 8, but that seems a bigger step in terms of cost and everything (as well as not being scannable on a v750).

Mike

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

David, thanks.

I am currently quite focused on two projects - one based on local allotment associations (rented land to grow vegetables) and the other a portrait project that I expect to take longer to get off the ground. I tend to shoot landscape when on holiday or if I have time at home, but at present that's not the main priority, though it would be nice to have the option. The allotment project is likely to use a range of formats, being 35mm film, digital as well as LF and the portrait project I am thinking should be primarily LF. I had thought about giong to 10 by 8, but that seems a bigger step in terms of cost and everything (as well as not being scannable on a v750).

Mike

If you're not backpacking with the camera to get to the locations, you don't need to worry as much about portability, and none of those subject require very extensive movements, unless you plan to do some still life at harvest time (and even then, it's not absolutely necessary, but a monorail with lots of movement capability will give you more creative choices). Basically any camera that doesn't leak light, locks down tightly, has basic movements, and fits your budget will do. You could start with a 150mm lens (again, any 150/5.6 lens made since the 1970s) and maybe a 90mm (a 90/f:8 Super-Angulon is versatile and not too expensive), and those will cover most landscape situations.

If you're going to travel with the camera by plane, though, a folding wooden camera like a Tachihara, ultralight Ikeda Anba, Chamonix, Shen-Hao, Wista, or if you like metal a Toyo, Horseman, or older Linhof Technika might be a better choice with today's restrictions on baggage.

 

[Mike Shimwell]

If you're not backpacking with the camera to get to the locations, you don't need to worry as much about portability, and none of those subject require very extensive movements, unless you plan to do some still life at harvest time (and even then, it's not absolutely necessary, but a monorail with lots of movement capability will give you more creative choices). Basically any camera that doesn't leak light, locks down tightly, has basic movements, and fits your budget will do. You could start with a 150mm lens (again, any 150/5.6 lens made since the 1970s) and maybe a 90mm (a 90/f:8 Super-Angulon is versatile and not too expensive), and those will cover most landscape situations.

If you're going to travel with the camera by plane, though, a folding wooden camera like a Tachihara, ultralight Ikeda Anba, Chamonix, Shen-Hao, Wista, or if you like metal a Toyo, Horseman, or older Linhof Technika might be a better choice with today's restrictions on baggage.

David,

Thanks for your help and advice. I'm not at all set on metal, but the few wooden cameras I've watched have gone for significantly more than the metal ones. I will keep my eyes open and perhaps bid on a few things - sooner or later I'm sure to win something. If not, I can use the time to save towards a Shen Hao...

I will let you know how it goes, and no doubt will keep coming up with new questions.

Mike.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

I'm not at all set on metal, but the few wooden cameras I've watched have gone for significantly more than the metal ones.

There's no direct correlation between wood or metal and price. Gandolfi and Ebony are expensive wooden flatbed cameras, and Linhof is an expensive metal flatbed camera. Shen-Hao and Chamonix are fairly reasonably priced for new wooden cameras. Toyo folding metal cameras are usually reasonably priced on the used market.

 

[Mike Shimwell]

There's no direct correlation between wood or metal and price. Gandolfi and Ebony are expensive wooden flatbed cameras, and Linhof is an expensive metal flatbed camera. Shen-Hao and Chamonix are fairly reasonably priced for new wooden cameras. Toyo folding metal cameras are usually reasonably priced on the used market.

David,

Just a thought - would it be a reasonable approach be to consider a new wooden body from Shen-Hao and look for second hand lenses on ebay? There seem to be more lenses for sale than complete kits in any case. On that basis I could look for lenses in advance of buying a body, so if one did turn up I would be set.

Thanks

Mike

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

David,

Just a thought - would it be a reasonable approach be to consider a new wooden body from Shen-Hao and look for second hand lenses on ebay? There seem to be more lenses for sale than complete kits in any case. On that basis I could look for lenses in advance of buying a body, so if one did turn up I would be set.

Thanks

Mike

Sure, that's a reasonable way to go about it. Be sure to check out the Chamonix as well. They are both very capable cameras, but the Chamonix has some attractive modern design features and is a bit lighter in weight for about the same price. The Shen-Hao is made of teak, though, which might hold up better in humid climates or if you like to shoot around water a lot.