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Monitor question, and concern about Apple Cinema Display

Michael Seltzer

New member
Hello,

I am looking for a good LCD monitor, and was thinking about the Apple Cinema Display (23"). However, I've heard this is hard to profile, as you can't adjust much (only the brightness, I think?). Does anybody have experience using, and profiling, this monitor?
I am also considering the Eizo CE210W. It's smaller, but if the color is better (more accurate, more consistent), it might still be the better choice. Then again, I've heard that it might not be as good as others because it is a PVA panel instead of an IPS type panel. I've also heard good things about the NEC monitors, but I think the new 26" LCD will be out of my price range. Both the Eizo and NEC have calibration software that, apparently, modify the LUT (calibration?) as opposed to simply creating an icc profile. I'm not certain I understand that correctly, but according to one of the threads on this forum, modifying the LUT is a good way to calibrate (as opposed to profile) an LCD. I have Monaco Optix XR Pro, so already have a colorimeter and profiling software, but the software that comes with these monitors might be better (at least, they're deigned for that company's monitors). I work in both color and black and white, so the ability to display monochrome images well is also important to me.
Any information/help/advice is appreciated.

Thank you,
Michael
 

Nill Toulme

New member
I've had the NEC 2090uxi for almost a year now and really have been happy with it. I have the Spectraview software that profiles and calibrates it directly using my Eye One Display 2 puck, and I recommend that highly also.

I'm tempted by the 2690, but that would definitely fall in the want, not need, category at this point.

Nill
~~
www.toulme.net
 

Alain Briot

pro member
The Apple 23" LCD profiles beautifully, as do most Apple monitors, including the iMac.

The adjustments available on the monitor are not important when profiling because all the settings that need to be adjusted are controlled by the software. What matters therefore is the software you use for profiling, not the controls on the monitor. I personally use ColorEyes Display which I consider to be the best monitor profiling software at this time. You most color meters with it. The Eye One color meter works well for example.
 

Stephen_Pace

New member
As stated above, LCD controls are not needed for proper calibration or profiling. The exceptions are the 12 bit or ARGB high end ones. Some of them do have processing happening in the monitor itself.

The rest are usually using the on screen controls to adjust the LUT on the video card. The calibration software works with these same values. So it is best to not use these on screen controls, with the exceptions I mentioned earlier. There are instances where the software that comes with the card (catalyst for ATI) can cause calibration issues as it can conflict with the monitor calibration software (both trying for control of the LUT).

Only a select few high end, and expensive, LCDs have controls that are independant of the video card. CRT controls do physicaly change the properties of the monitor. Earlier calibration software didn't always explain this clearly.

Stephen
 

Nill Toulme

New member
...Only a select few high end, and expensive, LCDs have controls that are independant of the video card. ...

I guess that depends on your definition of "expensive." I believe my NEC 2090uxi is now available for under US$1k. It has internal 12-bit LUTs and calibrates directly via those internal LUTs using NEC's Spectraview software.

Nill
~~
www.toulme.net
 

Andrew Rodney

New member
Well yes but it's an 8-bit in and out affair so the higher bits inside the display are only mildly useful and in fact, leaving them alone (whatever the default settings are) and simply profiling that behavior produces better (still less aliasing or banding) than messing with the OSD.
 

Michael Seltzer

New member
Thank you all for your responses. I read somewhere--perhaps on another thread on some forum here--that creating a profile diminishes the displaying range of hues (and perhaps tones?), whereas diddling the LUT does not. Is this true, and is this observable (that is, does it have any practical effect)?
 

Andrew Rodney

New member
Thank you all for your responses. I read somewhere--perhaps on another thread on some forum here--that creating a profile diminishes the displaying range of hues (and perhaps tones?), whereas diddling the LUT does not. Is this true, and is this observable (that is, does it have any practical effect)?

Profiles don't do anything but define device behavior. Diddling with the LUT buys you nothing but banding. In fact, you don't need to calibrate a display, you only need to profile it, the key to correct previews in ICC aware applications. However, since displays are not stable devices, they alter their behavior over time, it becomes necessary to calibrate them to a fixed behavior, after which you profile that behavior.
 

Nill Toulme

New member
.... In fact, you don't need to calibrate a display, you only need to profile it, ... However, since displays are not stable devices, they alter their behavior over time, it becomes necessary to calibrate them ...

???

Diddling with the LUT buys you nothing but banding...

I was under the impression that this was true if you calibrated externally in some fashion, but that avoiding this problem was the whole point of having 12-bit internal LUTs addressable directly via the DDC-CI interface. If not, what is the point?

Nill
~~
www.toulme.net
 

Andrew Rodney

New member
???



I was under the impression that this was true if you calibrated externally in some fashion, but that avoiding this problem was the whole point of having 12-bit internal LUTs addressable directly via the DDC-CI interface. If not, what is the point?

Nill
~~
www.toulme.net

It's still 8-bit in and 8-bit out! Far better to leave the LUT totally alone.
 

Nill Toulme

New member
The first ??? was with regard to your apparently contradictory statements that "you don't need to calibrate a display, ..." but "... since displays are not stable devices, they alter their behavior over time, it becomes necessary to calibrate them ..."

As to 8-bit in and 8-bit out, I understand that with respect to what the video card is sending to the monitor, but not in the context of direct calibration of the monitor's own 12-bit internal LUTs. I'm confused...

Nill
~~
www.toulme.net
 

Andrew Rodney

New member
The first ??? was with regard to your apparently contradictory statements that "you don't need to calibrate a display, ..." but "... since displays are not stable devices, they alter their behavior over time, it becomes necessary to calibrate them ..."

As to 8-bit in and 8-bit out, I understand that with respect to what the video card is sending to the monitor, but not in the context of direct calibration of the monitor's own 12-bit internal LUTs. I'm confused...

Nill
~~
www.toulme.net

For an ICC aware application to produce the correct color appearance, you only need a profile that defines the device behavior. That's because the adjustments are done on the fly using the Display Using Monitor Compensation architecture. That's how multiple displays, even ones at differing calibration target values can produce the same appearance (ie a Mac using a TRC gamma of 1.8 and a PC at 2.2). Outside of an ICC aware application, all bets are off. So the profile is key, not the calibration. However, displays alter their behavior over time so while you could just profile them, its handy to try to control their behavior before you profile them. But bottom line, there's only one thing you can calibrate on a CCFL LCD and that's the intensity of the backlight. Messing with the LUTs, no matter the bit depth inside the display doesn't buy you anything. That's why using an application that allows you to profile the device using Native white point and gamma and only setting the luminance based on the print conditions is the best approach. Let the compensation be applied by the profile in ICC aware applications.
 

Nill Toulme

New member
OK, I think I grasp that in theory. Have you actually tried it though with the new NEC displays and Spectraview to see if it pans out in practice? I.e., that letting Spectraview calibrate the monitor instead of simply profiling it does in fact produce banding or other artifacts?

Nill
~~
www.toulme.net
 

Andrew Rodney

New member
OK, I think I grasp that in theory. Have you actually tried it though with the new NEC displays and Spectraview to see if it pans out in practice? I.e., that letting Spectraview calibrate the monitor instead of simply profiling it does in fact produce banding or other artifacts?

Nill
~~
www.toulme.net

You have to profile the display, that's not an option. If you're asking about calibrating or not calibrating, with those specific displays, no although with other high bit displays yes. Again, you gain nothing since the profile handles all this (and yes, they still show more banding than the good old CRT's like a Sony Artisan which show non whatsoever).

Read the post from Karl Lang here and I think you'll see the issues surrounding high bit displays and what they really do:

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=9613&hl=
 

Nill Toulme

New member
You mean where he says:

"Unless the display has "TRUE 10 bit or greater 1D LUTs that are
8-10-10" user front panel controls for color temp, blacklevel and gamma
are useless for calibration and can in fact make things worse. An
8-10-8 3D LUT will not hurt things and can help achieve a fixed
contrast ratio which is a good thing. Only Mitsubishi/NEC displays
with "GammaComp" have 8-10-8 3D LUTs at this time." ...?

It was that very post from Karl (which is what, going on three years old now?) that got me started looking at the xx80-series NEC's in the first place, and ending up with the 2090.

Nill
~~
www.toulme.net
 

Klaus Esser

pro member
The Apple 23" LCD profiles beautifully, as do most Apple monitors, including the iMac.

The adjustments available on the monitor are not important when profiling because all the settings that need to be adjusted are controlled by the software. What matters therefore is the software you use for profiling, not the controls on the monitor. I personally use ColorEyes Display which I consider to be the best monitor profiling software at this time. You most color meters with it. The Eye One color meter works well for example.

Hi Alain!

I´m absolutely with you! I´m using a 23" Cinema Display - and have two hardware-calibrated CRTs on my G3/4 scanner-mac.
The results i get on the CinemaDisplay come 1:1 on the prints - offset and ink. Last week i had an A2 print on an Epson done by a service i never worked with before: first try, first hit.

best, Klaus
 

Pawel Woj

New member
what luminance are you finding accurate ? i stick to 120cd but curious what people are using

Hi Alain!

I´m absolutely with you! I´m using a 23" Cinema Display - and have two hardware-calibrated CRTs on my G3/4 scanner-mac.
The results i get on the CinemaDisplay come 1:1 on the prints - offset and ink. Last week i had an A2 print on an Epson done by a service i never worked with before: first try, first hit.

best, Klaus
 

Nill Toulme

New member
"Correct" luminance in my experience depends in part on the ambient lighting of your work environment and in part on the lighting in which your prints are to be viewed — too many variables!

I work in a fairly dim room. I started out at 120 cd/m² but quickly dropped it to 100, and yesterday I recalibrated to 95.

Nill
~~
www.toulme.net
 

Michael Seltzer

New member
Okay, this may be a real dim question (ha, ha), but how do you know what the luminance is set at? I have a couple of buttons, or a slider, to increase/decrease brightness, but they don't say how many candles it is. Does your profiling software tell you?
 

Michael Seltzer

New member
Sorry about the double post... I wanted to mention that luminance is an issue for me as the image on my screen is often significantly brighter than the prints. I had suggested in the Lightroom features forum that they add a way to increase brightness in the print module (similar to print sharpening), so I could adjust an image to look good on screen (for web display, or email/cd/dvd distribution to clients, etc.) and not have to create a separate file for printing. The response was that it is better to calibrate the monitor so its luminance matches the prints. I'm skeptical, as it seems to me that even if I calibrate my monitor that way, most other monitors that might view my images would not be so dimmed.
 

Klaus Esser

pro member
Sorry about the double post... I wanted to mention that luminance is an issue for me as the image on my screen is often significantly brighter than the prints. I had suggested in the Lightroom features forum that they add a way to increase brightness in the print module (similar to print sharpening), so I could adjust an image to look good on screen (for web display, or email/cd/dvd distribution to clients, etc.) and not have to create a separate file for printing. The response was that it is better to calibrate the monitor so its luminance matches the prints. I'm skeptical, as it seems to me that even if I calibrate my monitor that way, most other monitors that might view my images would not be so dimmed.

Hi Michael!

To set the luminanz of your display you just need a grayscale.

best, klaus
 

Nill Toulme

New member
Okay, this may be a real dim question (ha, ha), but how do you know what the luminance is set at? I have a couple of buttons, or a slider, to increase/decrease brightness, but they don't say how many candles it is. Does your profiling software tell you?
Mine does, but I'm using the NEC Spectraview that's specific to their xx90-series monitors. I don't remember whether Eye One Match, which is what I was using before, reported the luminance value or not, but I'm 90% sure it did.

Nill
~~
www.toulme.net
 

Pawel Woj

New member
you set a target luminance and the needle must be near center, the end result tells you how much you deviate from your goal
 

Michael Seltzer

New member
Thank you. I set mine for a target of 100 cd, and the needle was slightly left of center, though still within the green. The monitor still seems much brighter than the prints, so I will try a lower target--say, 90 cd--and see what that does. I work in a dimmish room. Is there a point in lowering (or increasing) luminance where the monitor's performance begins to diminish? Say its ability to disply a full gamut or range of tones?
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Profiles don't do anything but define device behavior. Diddling with the LUT buys you nothing but banding. In fact, you don't need to calibrate a display, you only need to profile it, the key to correct previews in ICC aware applications. However, since displays are not stable devices, they alter their behavior over time, it becomes necessary to calibrate them to a fixed behavior, after which you profile that behavior.

Andrew,

Did you really mean "calibrate" to a fixed behavior? Or would it be better to say "repeat profiles at intervals and learn from experience how often one needs to repeat that profile".

Asher
 

Andrew Rodney

New member
Andrew,

Did you really mean "calibrate" to a fixed behavior? Or would it be better to say "repeat profiles at intervals and learn from experience how often one needs to repeat that profile".

Asher

Calibration can have several meanings. Ideally we calibrate a device to a preferred behavior. You can calibrate (linearize) a printer so it provides ideal ink delivery.

For a display, you have an unstable device. We need to place it in a consistent state but that can also be a somewhat idealized state too. If you find that your print to screen matching isn't working well because you're calibrating to D50 and the screen appears too warm, you could calibrate to D55 as an example. But at some point, you're going to have to calibrate that white point again to this target value because the display will drift.

But for ICC aware applications, the profile is most important, not the calibration. The profile has to accurately reflect the condition to produce a correct preview of the numbers. If your profile assumes the device is at D55 but its at D50, that's going to be a bigger issue than using one or the other. The disconnect between device behavior and profile is the big problem. The profile will compensate in ICC aware applications (Display Using Monitor Compensation). That's one reason why something that previews correctly in Photoshop may preview pretty awfully in a non ICC aware web browser. Even though the display is calibrated, the browser has no idea about the profile and can't use that to compensate for correct viewing.

If you want to find out how often to calibrate, that's where Trending in software is useful. A few products do this. It compares the deltaE of the last calibration with the one you just did. If the values are low, you might be able to go longer next time before you calibrate. If they are high, then you should have calibrated more often. We are tracking device drift (not profile accuracy or accuracy of the calibration itself, you can't do that with the same instrument).
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Andrew,

Calibrate I associate with a CRT monitor. What do you mean by "calibrating" an LCD monitor?

Are we not just observing what is and then remapping according to that set of observations in the profile?

Asher
 

Andrew Rodney

New member
Andrew,

Calibrate I associate with a CRT monitor. What do you mean by "calibrating" an LCD monitor?

Asher

Setting the device into a desired condition. You can calibrate an LCD. Just because you don't have the number of physical controls as you do with a CRT, you can and must set target calibration aim points: TRC gamma, white point and luminance. The later is the one calibration process that you do by means of physically altering the back light intensity of the CCFL.

If you have a high bit display, you can alter the behavior internally. Otherwise, I'd use a native gamma and white point.
 
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