Mr. Netanyahu made Israel and the World proud today!

[Mark Hampton]

For some reason, this great joke, from comedian Emo Phillips, comes to mind:

******

Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!"

He said, "Nobody loves me."

I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"

He said, "Yes."

I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?"

He said, "A Christian."

I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?"

He said, "Protestant."

I said, "Me, too! What franchise?"

He said, "Baptist."

I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?"

He said, "Northern Baptist."

I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"

He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist."

I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative
Baptist Eastern Region?"

He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region."

I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?"

He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912."

I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.

*******

Do note that some Episcopalians still argue over whether the priest, when preparing Holy Communion, should face the wall behind the altar or the congregation. [And I remind them that the decision affects on which side of the chancel the American and Episcopal flags should properly be!]

Best regards,

Doug

beautiful !

 

[Jerome Marot]

Maybe this video and page are relevant to the discussion.

 

[fahim mohammed]

Maybe this video and page are relevant to the discussion.

Jerome, very relevant. Thank you.

However, one critical element seems to be missing. The one hiding behind all this!! The one goading it on, willing it on, waiting and wanting to see more piles of bodies, more blood flowing, women's blood, children's blood...praying for more action, thumping his book, salivating at the thought of all that human piles of mangled bodies, wasted land, the maimed, injured, cheering them on. Kill. Not enough. More is promised.
It has to be done. It says so. Finish the job. We are behind you. It is your destiny.

A child cries..missed that one. Here take this and silence that child's voice.

The tongue and lips are parched...thirst for blood..other people's blood.
Bring out the pop corn. More. More. The screams of the dead and dying are not enough.

More, more. Blood. The thirst has to be quenched.

The prophecy has to kept. It says so right here. In this book.

 

[Jim Galli]

Maybe this video and page are relevant to the discussion.

Thank you Jerome. I was ready to uncheck the subscribed box and walk away, but that little video made my point perfectly, I think. Should have had the Americans in there propping up Israel since 1948.

My point is simply "there is something besides real estate going on here". I've been there. There's something besides california chaparral going on here. No other worthless real estate on earth has seen so much action. Why? There is a God. There is a Satan. In the end, God will be glorified here. Lots of blood in the mean time. Thank Satan for that.

Confused? Needn't be. There is a book......

 

[Asher Kelman]

Maybe this video and page are relevant to the discussion.

Jerome,

This is a marvelous, albeit simplistic cartoon, (as all jokes are), a put down to us all! The crazy conquerers could be transcribed with costume changes to almost any human population area in Europe, Africa, Asia or the American contents. It represents that signature characteristic of man as a hunter, (and gatherer only when he is at rest from the hunt). Interestingly, Nina Paley's beautiful art is very much a clone of the work of Israeli artist David Sharir.

I honestly don't think there's likelihood of nuclear weapons being used before october 2013, so this cartoon is somewhat over the top! The work of Madame curie and her followers has lead us to a far worse apple than offered to Adam by Eve!

Asher

 

[fahim mohammed]

Allah ( YHWH ) has always been, is and shall always remain Glorified.

I do not believe in any god or God that needs any event to glorify him. No event, no place, no time, no creation, no thought, and/or imagination of anything anywhere in the past, the present or the future is needed to Glorify Allah. He has always been, shall remain, and will remain Glorified.

It is inherent in the meaning/definition of the word ' Allah '. But to appreciate the vastness of this word, one has to be fluent in the Original Language and Text of The Revealed Word.

 

[Mark Hampton]

Allah ( YHWH ) has always been, is and shall always remain Glorified.

I do not believe in any god or God that needs any event to glorify him. No event, no place, no time, no creation, no thought, and/or imagination of anything anywhere in the past, the present or the future is needed to Glorify Allah. He has always been, shall remain, and will remain Glorified.

It is inherent in the meaning/definition of the word ' Allah '. But to appreciate the vastness of this word, one has to be fluent in the Original Language and Text of The Revealed Word.

wasn't allah the name of a pagan deity before your religion was made up? is it the same allah?

how do you ken"the god" is male you seem certain in your text?

 

[Asher Kelman]

wasn't allah the name of a pagan deity before your religion was made up? is it the same allah?

how do you ken"the god" is male you seem certain in your text?

Mark,

In many Semetic languages, the root of the word "el" or "al" has the meaning of "god". However, unless one is referring to an idol, for example in these kind of Bronzes from Nigeria, there are no sexual organs and maleness is just a grammatical choice of no significance.

One can use the words "truth", "power", "explanation" and so forth in contexts that express the current level of culture of the person expressing the thought, but that is the extent of it! So if one has an idol and call it "God", that only defines the cultural delusion not the deepest scientific and proven reality of the matter. But you already know all this!

Asher

 

[Asher Kelman]

I'm puzzled as I'm pretty sure I already wrote this but maybe I, myself posted in the wrong place.

I had wanted to answer Jim's point about the current evangelical view of Jews and Israel. They form part of the predicted return of Jesus with resurrection of those who had accepted him as Lord and their Savior. Jim is a person, who, besides being a respected photographer with a great following of admirers, myself included, is also a devout Christian. That belief is strong, unshakeable and speaks to his positions on the world around him.

Well, I respect each religion's right to have their own brand of understanding of the Universe as they teach it. Besides insisting on equal rights to all, there's no need to reconcile any differences because, as liking blue or red over pink and green, each is personal choice. It's not my business to change that choice! I personally don't think that a creator and father of the universe can be stupid! So all people inherently will be deemed to have equal worth, whether or not they have particular or any belief or wear red, pink, green or blue! No good father closes his door to his children, no matter what they are wearing!

My main concern always is, not about what we each we believe is true, (or not), but rather how we, as humans, treat each other. After all, we, not the heavens have responsibility for our actions. Over the last century, some 100 million people were killed in massacres, genocide, mostly for religious or racial reasons or just plain hatred and greed. We have to take responsibility and address this, not blame Satan!

For centuries Catholic Christians were taught to hate Jews for killing Jesus, "Deicide"! Then came Martin Luther who first thought of converting the Jews to increase his weight against the Roman Church then went on to create even more virulent venom against the Jewish people. 20th Centruy Nazism was no aberration of European culture! Rather it was merely another, (but more technically efficient) pogrom against Jews as was normal every 15 to 30 years somewhere in Europe for over 100 years since constantine prescribed this hated and revenge. In fact, in the Baltic States, Hungary and Austria, local mobs and political parties were already acting against the Jews in some way, from limiting their rights to wholesale slaughter. France with a Vichy government had many important and admired people collaborating in support of the destruction of the Jews.

During all these times, Jews found temporary haven by moving and some reached Turkey or other Muslim lands to escape death and have some sense of community. This was true in the time of the Spanish and Portuguese Inquisitions, (which lasted over 400 years), ending at the close of the 19th Century in Portuguese Goa. Still the Western world regards Germany as the center of Nazism. Actually it's not. The center is biblical texts which blame Jews for Deicide and the preaching to spread it!

The ideas of the universal "Rights of Man", Liberty, Equality and Fraternity, were the culmination of the work of Locke, Berkeley and Hume and rationalism, re-debated and then actualized in the eloquence, terror and torrents of blood in the French revolution: Jews now could hold office, work in all professions and have equal standing before the courts. Unfortunately, the core hatred of Jews had not be removed, merely overruled! So there was a seething reaction. Parties with antisemitic platforms were formed, especially in France and Germany in reaction to this liberalization. The rest is history with the rise of Fascism and Nazi Germany.

When the systematic slaughter of Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals and mentally ill was clearly documented to the Allies, they refused to act! There was, on the whole, no Christian outpouring of support. A lot could have been done to slow or block the "final Solution of the Jewish Problem"! However, Christians were mostly silent. Individual Christians, in all occupied countries did show remarkable courage in rescuing handfuls of Jews here and there.

The allied air forces could have bombed the railway lines to the concentration camps throughout Europe where over 6 million souls, men women and children with their teddy bears, were being shot, strangled, gassed, or worked and starved to death. Worse, when ships carrying escaped refugees arrived in Western ports they were turned back to the arms of the Nazis! Even refugees arriving in Miami were refused entry by President Franklin D. Roosevelt and fortunately made their way to South American havens.

Is it a surprise, therefore that Jews decided to actualize the dream for rebuilding their Jewish Stare of old and being strong enough to prevent future attempts to wipe out their people? In fact, if not for Church antisemitism, Jews would have been so happy in Europe that the State of Israel would not even have been rebuilt from a tiny remnant of the massive Ottoman empire.

Then, as American Evangelical Christianity grew mainstream, the support for the Jewish state became articulated as a key policy platform, as it fits in with the belief in the second coming! American missionaries worked hard to convert Muslims and anyone else in preparation for this event!

Meanwhile in traditional post war Europe, antisemitism has morphed to anti-zionsim. This is a natural progression and even quite respectable and even logical. It seems warranted because of the suffering of local Arabs and migrated Arabs who where displaced, one way or another by the war following the British sudden departure. (No account was taken of 850,000 Jews driven out of their lands by mobs in surrounding countries).

Today, Christian America largely supports Israel, believes in the second coming and that's where Jim stands. What I wrote, (and I cannot find now), is "Why so late?" Why are Jews worth supporting now and not by the churches for over a thousand years?

The lives of all human beings are equally precious, Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, Atheist or Jew! What I see is selective outrage. Yes, I'm glad to have support for the State of Israel, but what about Darfur, Syria or other places where people are massacred. As much as I appreciate and am grateful for long due and new-found Christian support of Israel in the USA, I look for more awareness of the plight of other peoples. No one is worth more than another!

Yes, you can find many parts of Islamic writings against Christians and Jews, and vice vace, but I see the possibility of coexistence and respect. After all, we've done it before.

I hope those who feel that this is not needed to a photographic forum will be tolerant of my long essay, but I felt that it's importance to have balance in this important thread that will be here for a long time.

Asher

 

[fahim mohammed]

I'm puzzled as I'm pretty sure I already wrote this but maybe I, myself posted in the wrong place.

......

I hope those who feel that this is not needed to a photographic forum will be tolerant of my long essay, but I felt that it's importance to have balance in this important thread that will be here for a long time.

Asher

Asher, you did not initiate this thread. You are only responding, to a post originated by a distinguished forum member.

Your question is a very valid one..' Why so late '? Your response is, as are all personal responses, generally based on your knowledge, faith/belief, prejudices, upbringing, experiences and myriad other circumstances that make you what you are today.

You mention the Holocaust. A crime against humanity. Words cannot describe the barbarity of this act, nor can words ease the pain and memories of those whose loved ones perished. Ever.

I shall ask another question: Who were the perpetrators of this abhorrent act? What was their faith?
What religion did they belong to? 6 million human lives. Murdered in the most abominable ways devised by man. Which God did they follow? To whom did they pray? Who did they worship? These murderers.

I do not know what will happen in the future. But I know one thing for sure; I shall not be a part
of those bigots and extremists , of whatever belief/faith/religion ( and they come in all varieties ),
that actively promote, work towards, wish for, pray for and wait for the destruction of mankind.

If the total destruction of humanity in the future is our collective destiny, so be it. But I refuse to have any part in wishing for such and/or having any part in precipitating it.

 

[Asher Kelman]

If the total destruction of humanity in the future is our collective destiny, so be it. But I refuse to have any part in wishing for such and/or having any part in precipitating it.

This is a moving and required statement. Above all we are humble travelers, but have eyes and emotions that must not just turn inward. We have have power over ourselves, each other and the fragile planet. With that comes the responsibility! There's no place for exclusiveness!

Asher

 

[Jerome Marot]

When the systematic slaughter of Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals and mentally ill was clearly documented to the Allies, they refused to act! There was, on the whole, no Christian outpouring of support. A lot could have been done to slow or block the "final Solution of the Jewish Problem"! However, Christians were mostly silent. Individual Christians, in all occupied countries did show remarkable courage in rescuing handfuls of Jews here and there.
The allied air forces could have bombed the railway lines to the concentration camps throughout Europe

It seems to me that you are rewriting history here. Let me remind you Mit brennender Sorge and that about 5000 catholic and protestants priests ended in the camps (as political prisoners, red triangle), that about 3000 Jehovah's Witnesses were interned as well (purple triangle) and that Himmler established a special unit in the SD (Sicherheitsdienst) to identify and eliminate Catholic influences. Dachau had a special "priest block" with almost 3000 priests.

In the struggle for total control over German minds and bodies, the nazis developed an anti-christian agenda and turned themselves to a neo-paganism with Teutonic symbolism. You may want to read the wikipedia articles on the Ahnenerbe or on Heinrich Himmler.

As to the idea to bomb railway lines, which were primarily used to transport soldiers and ammunitions, I would suppose it had occurred to the allied air forces that it might be a good idea, don't you think so?

 

[Asher Kelman]

It seems to me that you are rewriting history here. Let me remind you Mit brennender Sorge and that about 5000 catholic and protestants priests ended in the camps (as political prisoners, red triangle), that about 3000 Jehovah's Witnesses were interned as well (purple triangle) and that Himmler established a special unit in the SD (Sicherheitsdienst) to identify and eliminate Catholic influences. Dachau had a special "priest block" with almost 3000 priests.

Jerome, I don't mean to diminish the testimony concerning nor the respect one should give to those outspoken Catholics who were also interned, humiliated and even tortured and killed in places like Dacheau. I have visited Dachau twice and know very well this part of the sad tragic losses some non-Jews also suffered in addition to the Gays, mentally unfit and Gypsies/Roma I have already mentioned.

I'm not rewriting any history, just by looking at the more than two thousand year doctrinal origins of anti-Semitism. I'm pointing out the complicity or else silence from the conservative powers in the Church. By putting Nazism at Germany's feet and even then referring to Nazis as the real home address for the crimes of the the holocaust, we take a simplistic view and to miss this cardinal point: the slaughter and the systematic and organized extermination of 6 millions Jews was the consequence of the doctrines of the Churches, both Lutheran and Catholic. In fact, the holocaust was nothing more than the customary everyday church culture-stoked pogroms, but with 20th Century industrial efficiency and therefore on a terrifying scale*. It was no more German than Austrian, French, Polish or Lithuanian! For sure it was not from anywhere but Christian teachings as thought up, enjoyed, decreed and promulgated by figures like Constantine and propagated throughout the Churches subsequent history. Read Constantine's Sword: The Church and the Jews: A History. Also see footnote **, below. BTW, the attempts by Himmler to create some rewritten Krist Germanic history to remold the New Testament to ancient German and neighboring tribal mythology, was limited to providing a working cohesion without priest's interference in the psyche of the SS. It was not, AFAIK, pushed into the Wehrmacht or German Christian population to any important or practical degree and is just a footnote to the self delusion of those odd people!

The later gradual objections to Catholicism in Hitler's Germany itself, was not, in the main part, an antithesis to the Catholic tradition, to the Trinity, to Jesus as Savior, but to individual anti-Nazi stands. It was political for the most part, an attempt to remove "the arteries and veins" of church political and social influence throughout Germany. Yes, in Germany itself, Hitler shed his pro-Christian labeling to have freedom from the opinions of priests. Yes, some thousands of Priests were indeed in concentration camps. However in occupied Europe, the Catholics held sway and even expanded with the arrival of Pope Pius XIII and new bargaining and concordat between these two powers.

"First, the Curia was a valuable ally against the Communists. Second, it was a reliable "emergency airfield" in case of failure. In exchange for loyalty, the leadership of the Third Reich promised Rome freedom in the occupied territories. Berlin fulfilled its promises. The mass Catholicism of the Serbs in Yugoslavia would hardly be possible without the authorization of Berlin."

Many prelates benefited from the Holocaust. For example, the gold looted from the Jews in Croatia and Bosnia was given to Archbishop Stepinac of Zagreb by the fleeing Nazis. The "Rat Line" that then was used by Nazi criminals fleeing overseas was established by the Vatican. At any rate, the Curia, thanks to Pius XII, became involved in the Nazi crimes.​

"Read more from this excellent essay here.

In the struggle for total control over German minds and bodies, the nazis developed an anti-christian agenda and turned themselves to a neo-paganism with Teutonic symbolism. You may want to read the wikipedia articles on the Ahnenerbe or on Heinrich Himmler.

That's entirely true, but still not related to the origin and underpinnings of the Nazi drive against Jews which was the the churches' repeated teachings in practically every village and town in the continent, in every school and from every pulpit.

As to the idea to bomb railway lines, which were primarily used to transport soldiers and ammunitions, I would suppose it had occurred to the allied air forces that it might be a good idea, don't you think so?

Yes it was discussed to bomb the railway approaches. There was no wish to divert bombers from targeting munitions trains to save the Jews. Also they had no wish to have responsibility for dealing with the whole issue of what on earth to do with millions of rescued Jews!

This is similar to creating a "no fly zone" over Syria, which in one stroke would save about 50 innocent civilians per day or 1,500 souls just in one month! The Western leaders are just too scared of the unknown consequences of Sunnis being free! That's essentially the kind of judgment meted out by the allied powers to the plight of the Jews, some 70 years ago during and even after the war.***



* Industrial Efficiency of Extermination: The Nazis had punch cards from IBM, telegraph lines and trains. The latter two had been tested in the deportations and slaughter of 1 million Armenian Christians with logistics facilitated by German technology throughout the Ottoman empire. In all provinces, towns and villages to be cleanses, "Appointed secretaries" of the "Young Turks", Committee of Union and Progress (CUP) (or Ittihad ve Terakki Jemiyeti), had telegraph connect, often installed by the German high command who's officers "advised" the Turkish Army. The railways also built by Germany, handled, on a small scale, more efficient transport than driving the Armenian villages and townsfolk to the roads that became almost impassable. The lessons of this chaotic genocide was not lost on the young officers, a few of which in later life might have even crafted the more efficient combination of punch card, telegraph, telephone and train scheduling, to keep masses of Jews flowing to extermination centers, something the Turks could not do efficiently in 1914 to 1917.

** "Carroll begins by restating, along the lines of the revisionist scholarship of the Jesus Seminar, the essential Jewishness of Jesus. Jesus was not, so far as we know, a man alien to the culture or politics of his time. He lived and died in a region controlled by an imperial power, and asserted in that context an intense form of Jewish spirituality, animated by a kind of love that was clearly shocking and inspiring to many of his contemporaries. It was only in the later context of the struggles between Jesus-following Jews and other variants of Judaism that the Gospel story came to be told as a conflict not between a Jewish rebel and a brutal Roman Empire but between the founder of a new religion and ''the Jews,'' a monolithic term that began the process of demonizing the other."

"Carroll's narrative picks up steam with the arrival of Constantine and the fusion of Christianity with imperial power. He neatly rebuts the notion of Constantine's conversion as some sort of divine intervention, seeing it more as a canny political move, shoring up support in Rome. And from Constantine's sword, designed in the shape of a cross, the fusion of a religion opposed to power with power itself is the core of the corruption of Christianity. When Christians used this secular power to persecute, banish, murder Jews, they were betraying not just the essence of the faith of Jesus, they were embodying the very power that killed Christ -- not the evil Jews, but the power of the state. Mercifully, the injunction to save Jews, to convert them, to see them as pre-eminently worthy of salvation, was a strong check on the demonization of Jews. But under the Inquisition, the church itself innovated another definition of Jewishness -- not of faith but of blood -- pioneering expulsions and then a demarcated Jewish ghetto in a quarter of Rome, to house refugees from elsewhere. The picture of the displaced Jews' arrival in the capital city is as fresh as the images from Srebrenica. One contemporary wrote: ''You would have thought that they wore masks. They were bony, pallid, their eyes sunk in the sockets; and had they not made slight movements, it would have been imagined that they were dead.'' Even then, Christian friars offered bread only on condition of conversion. After creating the ghetto, the church in the mid-16th century laid down what Jews could do and earn and how they could live. By the 17th century, the Jesuits had instituted the forerunner of the Nuremberg Laws, barring anyone from becoming a Jesuit ''who is descended of Hebrew or Saracen stock'' -- a baldly racist provision not formally ended until 1946." Read the entire review in the New York Times here.

*** The great war hero, General MacArthur refused allow the emaciated Jewish survivors to leave the camps for fear of what would happen to good European Christian families! These remnants of highly cultures Jewish communities throughout Europe were the very last stoic but fragile holdouts from the death machine. It took personal disciplinary involvement by President Eisenhower, as supreme commander, to get some level of humanity to those numb with hunger who breathed free air, but still within the same, or similar barbed wire.

 

[Jerome Marot]

Let me check something: is there any case in the history of humanity where two visually different populations were cohabitating in the same area, using the same natural resources, and each one refusing to be assimilated into the other, keeping their religion and/or culture, which did not end by one of the population calling the other one less than human and worthy of annihilation?

 

[fahim mohammed]

I need to impress upon readers an issue that is very important for me. But to do that I want you all
to read carefully the following statement:

My point is simply "there is something besides real estate going on here". I've been there. There's something besides california chaparral going on here. No other worthless real estate on earth has seen so much action. …"

Please stop for a moment and consider these:

" I've been there. "

And this:

" No other worthless real estate on earth…."

Pontification and reference to scholarly research, thesis, arguments come easy..when one is at a comfortable distance away. Say Nevada or Bavaria.

" I've been there. ". Lord be praised. Been there. Had falafel too, I presume.

" No other worthless real estate on earth…." ..Maybe for some.

For us ( those living in the region ) this is it. Our home. The final frontier, so to speak.

As it has been for our forefathers, as it shall be for our descendants.

Studious arguments, to and fro, come easily for armchair scholars in comforts of their homes.

To those on whom such hateful preaching and actions could have a direct impact; words do not come easy. We do not have that luxury.

Instead we pray, hope and try to find a way for peace.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Let me check something: is there any case in the history of humanity where two visually different populations were cohabitating in the same area, using the same natural resources, and each one refusing to be assimilated into the other, keeping their religion and/or culture, which did not end by one of the population calling the other one less than human and worthy of annihilation?

Jerome, it depends. Many native societies have not considered land to be owned. Rather they have a respectful bond with it as a source of sustenance. Often, indigenous tribes have understandings to prevent war or else have staged mock wars to teach the young about the tragic consequences of combat. However, if one tribe is not peaceful and seeks to take from the others, then power contaminates the relationships and that is a self replicating influence. This is discussed extensively in "The Parable of the Tribes: The Problem of Power in Social Evolution" by Andrew Bard Schmookler. These reviews are well worth reading and give a good idea of the work.

Jews lived for centuries in Arab lands and were granted semi autonomy, were protected for the most part and prospered. In Europe, however, in every country, (perhaps except Denmark) there were artificially promoted existential threats to the Jewish citizens. This simply following the animus created by the churches! Not complicated or mysterious at all! This never happened in Muslim lands in such a manner, although, isolated incidence of lower ranking before courts and special taxes might occur. Besides, in the Muslim lands, educational opportunity was more advanced with scholars of science, mathematics, medicine, geography and, yes, even philosophy. The idea that people couldn't live together without one killing the other just is not borne out by fact.

In Africa, many tribes lived and coexisted without slaughter and annihilation. Ghana alone has some 100 distinct tribal and ethnic entities living for the most part in peace and trading with each other. In West Africa, it was the European traders who created a rich market for the black man's labor. So local tribes were induced to raid other tribes and sell their brethren to the Portuguese, Dutch, French, Spanish and Americans. The human cargoes of africans bundled and shackled and stacked like firewood in trading boats outfitted just for that. Males and females were shipped to the Americas, north and south. At first they were termed “indentured servants” or “apprentices for life” but in reality, legally they and their offspring, just property to be bought and sold at will. Without European intervention, for sure there would have been intertribal attacks and kidnappings, but this was an external European crime that made slavery, to that point in time, seem trivial. All the slaver ships were Christian! When they Africans came to America the helpless chained folk were converted to boot! Freedom could only come by accepting Jesus as lord and Savior and they took that offering as their hope for a better life, even if it were to be after they died.

 

[Jerome Marot]

Jews lived for centuries in Arab lands and were granted semi autonomy, were protected for the most part and prospered.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Arab_world: "there were numerous incidents of massacres and ethnic cleansing of Jews in North Africa,[8] especially in Morocco, Libya and Algeria where eventually Jews were forced to live in ghettos.[9] Decrees ordering the destruction of synagogues were enacted in the Middle Ages in Egypt, Syria, Iraq and Yemen.[10] At certain times in Yemen, Morocco and Baghdad, Jews were forced to convert to Islam or face death.[11]
The situation where Jews both enjoyed cultural and economic prosperity at times, but were widely persecuted at other times, was summarised by G.E. Von Grunebaum:
It would not be difficult to put together the names of a very sizable number of Jewish subjects or citizens of the Islamic area who have attained to high rank, to power, to great financial influence, to significant and recognized intellectual attainment; and the same could be done for Christians. But it would again not be difficult to compile a lengthy list of persecutions, arbitrary confiscations, attempted forced conversions, or pogroms.[12]

As examples, I can was able to quickly find out: the Granada massacre in 1066.

As to Ghana, there are ethnic tensions in the present times and a general lack of records of what happened 1000 years ago. I would be very surprised if that part of the world was spared by the human custom of waging war on their neighbors.

 

[Jerome Marot]

Instead we pray, hope and try to find a way for peace.

I can only say Amen to that.

 

[Asher Kelman]

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Arab_world: "there were numerous incidents of massacres and ethnic cleansing of Jews in North Africa,[8] especially in Morocco, Libya and Algeria where eventually Jews were forced to live in ghettos.[9] Decrees ordering the destruction of synagogues were enacted in the Middle Ages in Egypt, Syria, Iraq and Yemen.[10] At certain times in Yemen, Morocco and Baghdad, Jews were forced to convert to Islam or face death.[11]
The situation where Jews both enjoyed cultural and economic prosperity at times, but were widely persecuted at other times, was summarised by G.E. Von Grunebaum:
It would not be difficult to put together the names of a very sizable number of Jewish subjects or citizens of the Islamic area who have attained to high rank, to power, to great financial influence, to significant and recognized intellectual attainment; and the same could be done for Christians. But it would again not be difficult to compile a lengthy list of persecutions, arbitrary confiscations, attempted forced conversions, or pogroms.[12]

As examples, I can was able to quickly find out: the Granada massacre in 1066.

Jerome,

In this last link, please note the comment by the historian Bernard Lewis:

"Diatribes such as Abu Ishaq's and massacres such as that in Granada in 1066 are of rare occurrence in Islamic history."[14

For all these incidents, as a whole, Jews were reasonably safe in Muslim countries for over 4 centuries. Add up European Christian pogroms against Jews every 10 to 30 years for 1000 years, it was likely 1000 times safer to be in Muslim lands! I could better research the numbers, but that's reasonably accurate.

As to Ghana, there are ethnic tensions in the present times and a general lack of records of what happened 1000 years ago. I would be very surprised if that part of the world was spared by the human custom of waging war on their neighbors.

The Ethnic tensions between a few neighboring peoples cost thousands of lives but were stopped by the military and that was in post colonial times. The very fact of having 100 languages survive, proves that one power group was not consuming its neighbor, or else homogenization would have occurred. Ghana is in fact a superb example of many peoples living closely with shared resources and all surviving for the most part.

Asher

 

[fahim mohammed]

Simple question...

In the last hundred years which race of people has massacred more Jews than in all of history?

Quick now..no need for massive history books. A child knows it.

Do you? Unless one is an apologist or a hypocrite, this answer is an easy one.

 

[Jerome Marot]

In the last hundred years which race of people has massacred more Jews than in all of history?

Homo sapiens sapiens. Hint: you wrote "race".

 

[fahim mohammed]

Homo sapiens sapiens. Hint: you wrote "race".

Homo sapiens? That is indeed a new term for them. Apologists and hypocrites response. Or are such the responses of hypocrites, apologists and cowards. Maybe to protect their own kind, their responses are convoluted.

The Native Indians of the Americas were right, when they said these people speak with a forked tongue.

Hint: It was not the Pharoas. And no, it was not Vichy France either.

 

[Jerome Marot]

Let me make it clear, then: I refuse to answer a question based on the concept of "race". Considering the subject we are discussing, I suppose that you are intelligent enough to find out why.

 

[fahim mohammed]

Let me make it clear, then: I refuse to answer a question based on the concept of "race". Considering the subject we are discussing, I suppose that you are intelligent enough to find out why.

In that case, let me make this clear...you pretend not to comprehend, act innocent as if you lack understanding.

I presume English is not your first Language. What is it German, French?

Let me put the question in simpler terms. People of which nation planned, sanctioned, oversaw, and executed the massacre of the largest numbers of Jews in history? What was their ethnicity , what religion and what color of skin did the majority of them have?

If you cannot comprehend this question, would it not be better not to participate? You I suppose are intelligent enough to realize that answering that which is beyond your comprehension, shall only display your ignorance..of the Language in the first instance.

 

[Jerome Marot]

I certainly understand your question. You don't seem to realize the implications behind it.

 

[fahim mohammed]

I certainly understand your question. You don't seem to realize the implications behind it.

Jerome, I do realize the implications behind my question.

However, and to digress , from what little I know of you from our interaction on this forum; I disagree with many of your views, but I respect them. As I respect you.

There are many on this forum who hold divergent views to mine. I respect those views and respect them as individuals like myself. I might get irritated, but never disrespect.

But there are a few, who, I believe, need to be challenged and confronted every step of the way for the bigotry and hatred they display..in the name of religion.

My question was and is intended primarily for one person. It was not aimed at you or others. But one specific person. I shall await his response.

Regards.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Jerome,

I too need to affirm that I have utter respect for your ideas, opinions and debate. It's such energetic and probing challenges, taking nothing for granted, that allows important ideas to be tested and ranked. Without that, notions are just passed from person to person. For me, the ideas behind hatreds of all sorts are themselves infectious and the long term result, especially in tough times can be explosions of violence with great loss of life for minorities.

In religion, if one indeed believes in one God, the father, (by any name), then it would be illogical for me to imagine that he'd exclude those folk who called him by different names or not at all! So I value equally all people of all religions and respect their choices to worship as they wish. I do have strong views on equal access to education for women and their rights to do as they choose in making their own life path.

As to the Holocaust, I think this is a lesson for humanity. It's the ideas that fueled the attacks on the Jews in every country and in every period of European history, that are the root of antisemism. In fact, the whole idea of Christianity is that god moved his holy spirit from Jerusalem to Rome and that from then on, the Jews are devalued and have to pay a price, in every generation for the Roman killing of Jesus which the Roman writers conveniently laid at the feet of the Jews. Love your neighbor, was not practiced towards Jews as a policy of the Church, but the opposite. The killing of Jesus and the suffering on the cross has been the central theme that has bred hatred. Also love thine enemy or turn the other cheek did not apply to Jews.

So yes, we could go through the history of the rise of the National Socialist Party in Germany, but that they became as powerful as they did is an accident of chance. The same movement could just have easily started in many other places in Europe as Jews were only tolerated in Ghettos, special regions or in the cities for some decades before the next outbreak against them somewhere or other. So who is responsible for the Holocaust! Obviously the German Nazi party led by Adolf Hitler. However, in most occupied countries, there were no shortage of eager collaborators once the machinery got to work. The groundwork was already laid out by the common, as the minimum, animus towards Jews.

Look how ideas of devaluating other humans allowed slavery to flourish in spite of strong Christian values. This then mutated to racism towards blacks, viewing them as racially inferior.

In the U.K., when I grew up, I often heard the term, "Wogs". These were the people of the Empire that the British ruled over. Jokingly, "Anyone south of the White cliffs of Dover are wogs!" was a dig presumably at the erstwhile colonial enemy, the French! The diminution of the value of other races and ethnic groups allows, down the road, (when conditions either wretched or else ripe for for power grab and economic advantage), to treat the other people as chattels, commodities or worse, as rats to be exterminated.

That's why I focus on noxious ideas that breed hatred and not the local executioners of the time. These while bearing full responsibility for particular crimes, are not the root cause. Only by addressing the roots do we deal with devaluation of human beings we so frequently see.

Preaching ethnic or race hatred should be a crime against humanity! Sending missionaries to wipe out cultures is a close second.

BTW, uniquely, German people are to be recognized for having made the greatest strides in addressing past and current racism. In spite of the attempts at rebirth of such xenophobia in Germany, the society earns high marks for addressing this in their educational system. At least this is part of the national conscience.

We have rightly forgiven the German people of the terrible deeds of the Holocaust but not the ideas behind it, namely the crusades which have consumed so many peoples in all continents. In some areas of South america, for example, there is no aboriginal male DNA, just the native female genes, as the men were massacred and the survivors converted, at the sword, to Christianity. Consider today how ardent Catholicism is in South America! Note that the enforcers of the Inquisition and myriads of new missions were there long enough to make sure folk kept their new faith! Even, if conversion is not done by the sword, but with bread and shelter, it's unjustifiable. That's the essence of my argument. Salvation must start with deeds on this earth. What deed then? Value other peoples!

The first step is love your neighbor as yourself. The rest? That's all commentary. Source​

The Catholic Church of Rome, Pope Pius XII and Pope Pisu XIII, the Roman Catholic German bishops and the German Lutheran and Protestant churches should have been relentlously preaching against the Nazi agenda from the onset of fascism! But it was both inconvenient and opposing communism seemed more important. Also, it was consistent with their preaching against the Jews anyway. It was obvious that Jews were being collected for death camps. They were silent during the rise of Hitler and the Brown Shirts and then in the humiliation, marginalization and building racial propaganda and to the ultimate round ups of the Jews and extermination. TIt was obvious that Jews were being collected for death camps. They either collaborated or were silent, but they knew! Now they want to make the silent Pope Pius XII a saint! That's truly unforgivable!

BTW, I enjoy being at a home and the family singing Christmas carols or watching their child baptized or celebrating with a couple married in their church. I treasure these moments. If I had to look after a child of a Christian, I'd personally take him or her to Sunday school and make sure the education was, indeed as the parent wished, I so strongly believe in respect for other cultures. Only when we are content at the culture others choose, can we truly live together. Well, that's the goal. If we teach our children these ideas, then we have a chance!

Asher

 

[Asher Kelman]

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=FhaUVmYBXD0>

Find a link to the transcript and READ it.

Israel and America are NOT bullies.

The World hangs in the balance.

Jim,

Allow me now to address bluntly the implications of your messages on Israel and Gods purpose. I hope, that as a friend, (we've shared bread together and discussed the bible), you'll hear what I have to say and not then close the door on us!. So, after all the discussion, where do I stand? BTW, you even called me a bigot, which flummoxed me and was in fact quite ironic! I have digested that and consider the remark just a reflex from someone driven to preach, who's stopped in their tracks by protests!

At the outset, as a Jew, I appreciate so much the support Israel has from its friends. However, even friends must not cheer for, us merely as part of some dream for the second coming of the Messiah or else us without criticism! We as Jews, wish to, (and also must of necessity), value the Arabs and each child's life. It's despicable for me to hear vile insults to all Muslims. It's degrading and unfitting. I don't ask you to believe in their Prophet, you cannot! God won't mind you showing decent tolerance, of that I'm certain, as night follows day!

Now if Radical Islamists do a crime, massacring the innocent as in 9/11, then we can direct out anger, disgust and aggressive power to just them; we can mete out justice and even revenge! That's what got Osama bin Laden killed and dumped in the ocean! (Wishing there were no innocents killed in the process!). However, as George Romney pointed out last night to President Obama, "We can't kill our way out of this mess!" I'm not asking you to "love your enemy" or "turn the other cheek", but to respect those who practice their own faith in peace.

Don't try to convert them, don't pray for them and don't attack them. Of course I'd ask equal tolerance from the folk we show that hospitality to, for other religions, including Christianity and Judaism.

Your support of Israel, however welcome, can't be at the expense of lowering the value of Israel's enemies, as for Israel, those are the very people we need to make peace with! Palestinians and Jews, however they arrived in this small patch of land, need to find coexistence and mutual prosperity, not victories. There were 850,000 Jews kicked out of Arab lands and hundreds of thousands of local arabs left either by force or at the urging of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem when the Arab states attacked the newly declared State of Israel when the British scarpered away, leaving the parties to fight. Surprisingly the tiny new state survived! In subsequent wars on Israel, Jordan ceded the West Bank and so thousands of Arabs were now under Israeli jurisdiction. The peoples there are now fused into a national identity as "The Palestinians". (Interestingly, no one refers to Jordan as a Palestinian Stae, even though they make up over 60% of the population in that Royal dictatorship). The Palestinian people do indeed have rights to a state and a secure independent future just as the Israelis do. The vast majority of jews hold this position. However, getting there is tough. With this, we don't need messianic calls with insults to Islam!

Jim, I applaud your own strong faith and expectation of the time of the second coming. This is the beauty of your world and that's fine by me. However, we need a different approach to living side by side with our Arab neighbors. We do not need or want any Armageddon! This is absolutely contrary to our beliefs in the universal value of man and life.

I think this about covers the matter! Now back to photographs!

Asher

 

[Jerome Marot]

For me, the ideas behind hatreds of all sorts are themselves infectious and the long term result, especially in tough times can be explosions of violence with great loss of life for minorities.

I understand that you are trying to do your best.

As to the Holocaust, I think this is a lesson for humanity. It's the ideas that fueled the attacks on the Jews in every country and in every period of European history, that are the root of antisemism. In fact, the whole idea of Christianity is that god moved his holy spirit from Jerusalem to Rome and that from then on, the Jews are devalued and have to pay a price, in every generation for the Roman killing of Jesus which the Roman writers conveniently laid at the feet of the Jews. Love your neighbor, was not practiced towards Jews as a policy of the Church, but the opposite. The killing of Jesus and the suffering on the cross has been the central theme that has bred hatred. Also love thine enemy or turn the other cheek did not apply to Jews.

The idea that "the Jews" were a god-killing people was indeed used to foster hate in Europe, I shall not deny what is an historical fact. But there were many genocides in the history of humanity (admittedly few with as many victims) and in each of them an idea was necessary to convince the killers that the victims deserved their fate. That is the true lesson for humanity.

Preaching ethnic or race hatred should be a crime against humanity!

Preaching ethnic or race hatred is a crime in France and Germany (and probably in other European countries). US citizens free speech is protected by the first amendment. Which solution is better, I don't know.

The Catholic Church of Rome, Pope Pius XII and Pope Pisu XIII, the Roman Catholic German bishops and the German Lutheran and Protestant churches should have been relentlously preaching against the Nazi agenda from the onset of fascism! But it was both inconvenient and opposing communism seemed more important. Also, it was consistent with their preaching against the Jews anyway. It was obvious that Jews were being collected for death camps. They were silent during the rise of Hitler and the Brown Shirts and then in the humiliation, marginalization and building racial propaganda and to the ultimate round ups of the Jews and extermination. TIt was obvious that Jews were being collected for death camps. They either collaborated or were silent, but they knew! Now they want to make the silent Pope Pius XII a saint! That's truly unforgivable!

There was no Pope Pius XIII, you probably mean Pius XI (before 1939) and Pius XII (after 1939).

If you excuse me, you are playing the armchair analyst here. First, Pope Pius XI did oppose the nazis with the strongest means at his disposal within Germany, as I already explained. Second, it is very easy to say "should have opposed", 60 years after the events and when you are not living in a tiny enclave surrounded by fascist Italy. Pius also knew about the killing of catholic priests in nazis camps, and he did nothing against that either. Will you argue that he believed catholic priests to be god killers as well or will you think that, maybe, his hands were bound? In any case, prominent jews were able to flee in Vatican city, the Church tried to find an agreement with Brazil to let Italian jews to flee the persecutions and even if the pope "did not give orders" for any Roman Catholic institution to hide Jews, about 80% of Roman ones were saved from deportation.

Difficult times. Does that make him a saint? I would personally be shocked. But documents are declassified as we speak and may shed more light on the matter.

 

[Jerome Marot]

My question was and is intended primarily for one person. It was not aimed at you or others. But one specific person. I shall await his response.

If your question is wrong in itself, limiting the people who are supposed to answer it will not render it right.

I understand that you and Asher are intelligent and educated persons. I can't imagine any of you mass killing people. Yet, the very essence of this discussion is the first step in that direction. This is the message I hoped you would find in my posts.

Any single moment when you talk about "race" or "nation", when you single out an organized group of people to be "responsible" for whatever sin, you start a dichotomy between "we" and "them". The list of genocides goes a long, long way and very few countries are spared by it. Probably only Antarctica, since there are not people there. The only reason your group of people or my group of people did not kill as many humans as the nazis -if they didn't- is because they lacked the occasion. Not because they are, in some magical way, better.

If you go back in this thread, you will find out that I consistently challenged your positions, extending it to similar historical examples. Nowhere did I say that my position was right. It is a difficult world we live in and we are all guilty.

Now, back to photographs indeed.