NEC 2490 / 2690 / Sean Reid / Luminous Landscape

[Georg R. Baumann]

I made up my mind as best as I could with the limitted knowledge I have.

I went for a two screen Solution, one being the Eizo CG 301W, the other is the Eizo HD2441W, the latter I could not resist as I got it for an unbelievable price and I can use it for blue ray as well as it provides two HDMI connections, very handy.

Of course hoping this to be a good decision, I am exited to see this in action.

I found the whole NEC story disturbing to say the least hence decided to not buy anything from them.

 

[Murray Foote]

I have an NEC 2690 (as well as an older NEC 2141SB CRT). In Australia they sell the European version but they do not sell the Spectraview version at all. When I researched the alternatives it appeared that you could buy the US Spectraview software separately but not the totally unrelated European Spectraview software. (Mind you, this was last year. I don't know if anything has changed).

I use Coloreyes who are unable to provide hardware calibration because NEC refuses to provide the necessary information (though I seem to recall seeing it as a supported monitor for hardware calibration with Eye-One Display 2). Consequently I don't have the DDC option for calibration. Coloreyes are very much down on NEC which is understandable. They are also very much down on the 2690 and I have wondered whether that is perhaps coloured by their attitude to NEC.

Regards,
Murray

 

[Andrew Rodney]

I use Coloreyes who are unable to provide hardware calibration because NEC refuses to provide the necessary information (though I seem to recall seeing it as a supported monitor for hardware calibration with Eye-One Display 2). Consequently I don't have the DDC option for calibration. Coloreyes are very much down on NEC which is understandable. They are also very much down on the 2690 and I have wondered whether that is perhaps coloured by their attitude to NEC.

Of course they are down on it and no, its not understandable. Too bad. There have been all kinds of display manufacturers (and other hardware manufacturers) who haven't allowed this for good reason (Barco, Sony Artisan to name just two). If you want a SpectraView, you hopefully want one because you know its capabilities along with its host software which cost far, far less and works far, far better than ColorEyes. Its like them complaining they can't use a Chevy transmission in a Ford.

Gee, I can't get my Hasselblad’s lens to fit on my Canon 5D, bad Hasselblad, bad Hasselblad. I'm really tired of hearing these ColorEyeys guys bitch and moan all the time (if it's not NEC, its Adobe and Apple who don't allow users to buy their expensive and complicated camera profiling product because in reality, those users don't need to). Sour grapes.

When I researched the alternatives it appeared that you could buy the US Spectraview software separately but not the totally unrelated European Spectraview software.

Well consider yourself somewhat lucky. At least you can get the US software which is what you want, not the European version (which NEC out sources to of all people, the company that was once in bed with ColorEyes but split from them!).

 

[Michael Fontana]

Gee, I can't get my Hasselblad’s lens to fit on my Canon 5D, bad Hasselblad, bad Hasselblad..

Not correct, Andrew! Bad example ;-)
You can easely adapt the Hassilenses to a EOS-mount....

BTW: do you know any possible reason for the NEC's behaviour - still in a week they lost 2 potential clients, in that not really widespread forum, here...

 

[Michael Fontana]

George

I had a look at the Eizo's too.
And having 2 display's is still a good idea; I went on that, again.
Good luck with' em!

So you can use the palette's display as "sRGB-display" as well...

 

[Andrew Rodney]

Not correct, Andrew! Bad example ;-)
You can easely adapt the Hassilenses to a EOS-mount....

BTW: do you know any possible reason for the NEC's behaviour - still in a week they lost 2 potential clients, in that not really widespread forum, here...

Easily? OK fine. There's all kinds of incompatible fits between manufacturers, hopefully you get the point.

As to NEC's behavior? I have no idea. Its a big company, like many such companies, there are policies in countries that differ. As to why they don't offer an SDK to ColorEyes? Why should they? What's in it for them? They control the entire product from start to finish. Much like Apple. Much like a lot of other companies. If their solution sucked, OK, that be an issue that would lead to loss of sales and bad buzz by reviewers. That's not the case here.

 

[Michael Fontana]

Yep, Andrew,

I was getting the point, just the example you named, wasn't a good one.

As for NEC I can understand not uncovering the SDK; but a company, living in a international, globalised world, meanwhile rejecting some potential customers °by default°, by castrating a product they sell in some other lands unrestricted, this looks strange to me.

If you would might have wrote, or NEC might have singnalised: ok, we have some software license or whatever issues, this might be a bit better understandable. But its just a No....

 

[Andrew Rodney]

As for NEC I can understand not uncovering the SDK; but a company, living in a international, globalised world, meanwhile rejecting some potential customers °by default°, by castrating a product they sell in some other lands unrestricted, this looks strange to me.

What they are doing globally, which I think is a big mistake, is not supplying the same fine software universally. I can't imagine why they'd have a European version*that's somewhat crippled. Makes no sense to me. A person actually buying and downloading a piece of software, doesn't care where the server exists. But this goes back to this silly idea you have to purchase the software on top of the hardware, then get a physical CD, instead of just downloading it.

 

[Michael Fontana]

Getting the LaCie 526 this morning, on a first sight, it looks good:
no dead pixels, and compared to the (died) 22' CRT, its real estate, "sharper" and details came out, that weren't to obvious on the CRT.

I noticed too, that noise is better visible; assuming that the less sharp CRT just blurred it. Some images have a bit kinda film-like grain now.

After 2 hours of playing arround, I made the first calibration, and noticed quite a big influence in using the generique profile vs the hardware-calibration:

The calibration is click and go, and runs smoothly.
The extended gamut is visible whhen surfing, etc, but doesn't disturbs to much:
only when saving a sRGB-tagged file for web it becomes really obvious in the "save for web"- windows.

 

[Murray Foote]

SpectraView ... software which cost far, far less and works far, far better than ColorEyes.

They used to cost about the same - $170 for a Spectraview download as compared to $175 for a Coloreyes Download but I see the Spectraview download is now $99.

I'm really tired of hearing these ColorEyeys guys bitch and moan all the time (if it's not NEC, its Adobe and Apple who don't allow users to buy their expensive and complicated camera profiling product because in reality, those users don't need to).

Well, there's that but what surprised me is that they have said that the 2690 is really no good and Samsung is a much better alternative. I haven't seen that come out in the reviews I've read from places like PRAD.

If you want a SpectraView, you hopefully want one because you know its capabilities...

Well consider yourself somewhat lucky. At least you can get the US software which is what you want, not the European version (which NEC out sources to of all people, the company that was once in bed with ColorEyes but split from them!).

OK, except that I was probably wrong. I explored a bit more and find it's available to US addresses and payment only. I can probably manage that provided I ascertain or gamble it works OK on my European sourced monitor (which I think is likely but I'll ask NEC).

This is the process I went through at the time: I picked up an Xrite Pulse cheaply when they were being discontinued which included an Optix XR colorimeter. I asked XRite and an upgrade to Optix XR Pro was no longer available. I tried the European Spectraview demo but didn't feel enthused for reasons I can't remember and anyway as far as I know I can't buy it. The US Spectraview I passed by at the time because it doesn't appear to have a trial version and perhaps because my second NEC monitor doesn't appear to be supported (I'll have to ask them about that). In going for Coloreyes I would have been influenced by the Dry Creek Review though that didn't include either version of Spectraview and is now three years old. There are very few comparative ratings on the web. Conversely, I saw a monitor review a month or so ago that got much better results with the Optix XR Pro than Coloreyes and that also set me wondering whether I should still be considering US Spectraview.

Regards,
Murray

 

[Andrew Rodney]

I see the Spectraview download is now $99.

Its always been $99 as long as I've been paying attention.

Well, there's that but what surprised me is that they have said that the 2690 is really no good and Samsung is a much better alternative.

Where? I'd like to read that.

 

[Murray Foote]

Where? I'd like to read that.

Well, it's in the Coloreyes Forum which is for Coloreyes users but since it's there expressed as authoritative statements I don't see any reason not to quote them...

From my experiences with the 2690s i couldnt really recommend them.
certianly a large gamut but not very even and the screen uniformity tool only seems to make it less good. The view angle also isnt stellar for what i was expecting.
If you are going to spend that kind of coin, spend just a bit more and get the CG241 EIzo or look at the samsung line.

It has been our experience that the 2690 needs to be calibrated at a luminance of at least 150 and in some cases even 180-200 before you get good consistent results. We have also noticed pretty big white point shifts after profiling while the monitor was just sitting there.
Having tested the Samsung XL monitors right next to the 2690 we can say with a high level of confidence that there is no comparison. The Samsung blows the 2690 away. And while we will probably never be given the sdk to talk to the high bit luts in the NEC we are working with Samsung to drive their XL line.

(Note: I calibrated at 130cd/m2 using Coloreyes for a good result. My recent soft proofs have been quite close. I notice in the US Spectraview 2 manual that I may also be able to get lower by turning ColorComp (screen uniformity) down.)

Our impression of the 2690 love fest is that too many people are being seduced by certain "industry experts" who are pushing the NEC for as yet unexplained reasons. We have heard from several large commercial organizations who have been testing the NEC, or rather being forced to test the NEC, saying that it performs exactly as we have been indicating. The Spectraview software is really very limited in it's diagnostic abilities further hampering users needs to analyze the monitor. No doubt many people are happy and will remain happy with them. We see a great deal more detail in the results and have not been impressed. If we were provided with the sdk we perhaps could say more.
As for the samsung, even without the sdk it pretty much blew away everything making manual adjustments in Coloreyes. We expect to have full control of this monitor in a month or two. but again even without it I was very impressed. There will be no change required to the monitor, only a software update from us.

Regards,
Murray

 

[Andrew Rodney]

Well, it's in the Coloreyes Forum which is for Coloreyes users but since it's there expressed as authoritative statements I don't see any reason not to quote them...

Thanks. Kind of what I'd expect from these guys, in private forum no less. As I've seen in the past with these guys, pretty high BS factor.

Of course, if you want to use the NEC at lower luminance (below 150), you can but you'll be doing so by adjusting the LUTs (which in this case are high bit and controlled by the software so its a moot point). Most LCD's, certainly new out of the box are going to be hard pressed to physically hit less than 150cd/m2.

What they mean by "inconsistent results" of course is undefined. Of course, these guys are preaching to their own choir here while again bitching about the lack of an SDK. I love the "if we had the SDK we could say more". They can't because they don't have one but that doesn't stop them from saying things that are not backed up and basically sound like spurious comments.

 

[Andrew Rodney]

I notice in the US Spectraview 2 manual that I may also be able to get lower by turning ColorComp (screen uniformity) down.)

You do want it on. Its off by default. It shouldn't be but it is.

 

[Murray Foote]

You do want it on. Its off by default. It shouldn't be but it is.

I do have it on. I went through all the custom settings. I was just saying that if I turned it down a touch I might be able to have the luminance down a bit too but I'm not aware of print density problems from the soft proof so it's not an issue for me anyway.

Regards,
Murray

 

[Murray Foote]

Untill spring 2008, in Europe, you could buy the WUXI, and even NEC disabled its hardware-calibration-function, it was possible to get it back, within a hidden OSD-menue.

And if some US-friends would buy a Spectraview-II-license and mail its serial to you, you could use it whithout limitations. But you couldn't buy it with a european banccard, or adress...

I went through all that stuff, including some 60pages-threads, so this is just a summarisation...

So quite some euro-photographers jumped on that, meanwhile the US-friends proofed, that not all US-citizens are bushlike ....that one is for Andrew ...

Somehow, NEC got aware of that, and they changed the firmware on the european WUXI's, whithout telling a word in spring 08..... so some poeple did buy it and run into the fact, that they just bought software-calibratable displays, only.

Michael

I read the 60-page thread when it was a 60-page thread, including explanation of the secret switch for enabling hardware calibration. I lost contact with it after the forum crashed. It's now 70 pages and I just went back and read the rest.

"Tamlin" reports that prior to the early 2008 menu change you didn't need to disable the switch anyway to use Spectraview II with a European 2690. The probable but not certain inference is that European 2690s can still use Spectraview II and that the hidden switch would have been removed only to stop potential usage of BasiCColor Spectraview 4.

You may have seen reports from other fora that make this more clear but it may be that someone was defeated by the absence of the hidden switch and did not check whether they needed it anyway.

Regards,
Murray

p.s. NEC informs me that the original Spectraview for my old 2141SB is now available as a free download.

 

[Michael Fontana]

Tha, Murray

As far as I remember, there has been another independent source, indicating this early 2008-block.

I couldn't wait weeks to get this cleared, the LaCie 526 is running here smoothly since monday morning. After all, its the same display, same puck, and the cal software worked fine, and consistently, I made three cals, that day.

How do you clean the glass of the Wuxi?

 

[Murray Foote]

Just an electrostatic cloth. That's all I've needed so far.

 

[Stephen Baker]

Nec 3090

Rodney -- I've seen your comments on the NEC WQXi3090 in several forums. Now that you've lived with the display would you please offer some advice?

I was ready to order the 3090 as my primary use is photography via Photoshop (working in A-RGB from RAW) and an Epson 3800 printer. I understand the features/limitations of a wide gamut display and will be using color aware applications (CS3, Safari, Firefox). Other programs that I use, like Cubase for midi music composition, won't be a problem if colors are not accurate.

But now that I'm ready to take the plunge, I've had responses from "experts" in other forums that warn me that banding will be worse with a wide gamut display because the colors are being spread further apart, and they refer me to Karl Lang's infamous posting about the disadvantages of wide gamut monitors due to the 8-bit bottle neck on input and output. Are they just not aware of the NEC's hardware calibration, LUT etc, or is banding on A-RGB displays an issue? Also, have you had the backlight leak that some have reported?

Thanks!

 

[Andrew Rodney]

I'm not seeing any issues with Safari, FireFox etc. I realize that stuff like Flash Galleries may not be color managed but they appear OK on this end. I'm more concerned about applications like Lightroom and Photoshop. They of course are fine as they understand color management.

As to Karl's post, the idea is more that if you're working with very subtle color within the sRGB gamut, the colorimetric differences between say 123/45/89 and 123/46/89 are higher (higher difference in deltaE). It might be a bit more difficult to see these subtle differences on a wide gamut display. But on an sRGB display, anything outside sRGB isn't visible. So there's no free lunch here. Neither is earth shatteringly problematic. In a perfect would, you'd have both displays or, what the technology in the future might provide is a unit that can switch gamuts when you need one or the other.

 

[Stephen Baker]

Thanks Rodney. So I would not see increased banding (vs. a standard def display) on a properly calibrated 3090? And have you had no backlight bleed issues with yours?

 

[Andrew Rodney]

Thanks Rodney. So I would not see increased banding (vs. a standard def display) on a properly calibrated 3090? And have you had no backlight bleed issues with yours?

You shouldn't.

 

[Georg R. Baumann]

In a perfect would, you'd have both displays or, what the technology in the future might provide is a unit that can switch gamuts when you need one or the other.

If I undersatnd that correct, the Eizo CG301W is getting close to that Andrew.

The ColorEdge CG301W has a color gamut that reproduces 97% of the Adobe RGB color space so it can display most colors in a photograph taken in Adobe RGB mode and CMYK color spaces used for printing. Furthermore, it has an sRGB mode to accurately reproduce this narrower but commonly used color space.

 

[Andrew Rodney]

If I undersatnd that correct, the Eizo CG301W is getting close to that Andrew.

I doubt it. The only unit I know of that's close is the new HP Dreamcolor. Totally new and different technology.

 

[Georg R. Baumann]

Hi Andrew,

well, it was a quote from the Eizo CG 301W description, but tell me, in what way would you test this feature on accuracy once I have the monitor here?

 

[Andrew Rodney]

All (most?) of the wide gamut displays have an "sRGB mode" but you can't calibrate and profile over that simulation, and in the end, you can't alter the chromaticity of the units which are fixed and, depending on the unit, somewhere in the neighborhood of Adobe RGB (1998).

 

[Georg R. Baumann]

concerning NEC

I promised to let you guys know what I can find out.

I was talking to Mr. Seher from NEC display solutions Europe about hardware calibration of NEC displays.

He said that the products in Europe differenciate between "Multisync" and "Spectraview", whereby the 2690wuxi for example belongs to the multisync category and can not be hardware calibrated, and writes a gradation curve to the grafic card instead, hence is not the opimum solution for anyone wanting smooth color transitions on his display.

In the US the hardware calibration is realised with the bundeled Spectraview Software.

In Europe the Software is called NEC Profiler and comes exclusively with the Spectraview range. It is an OEM product that comes from a company called Basiccolor. Profiler has the same functionality that Spectraview software provides.

He also stated that the european Spectraview panels are handselected and go through a much tighter quality management selection process.

Thats about it that I could find out, needless to say, the spectraview editions have a higher pricetag.

 

[Keeson Man]

hello i m planning on getting either 2490 or the 2690 ( and i m more interested in the 2690 more since i could be using it as a bigger display that i can play PS3 and watching movies ) but here is one thing that i m a little concerning is that i m also into photography and wanted to start editing some of my pictures. so i dunno should i be going for the sRGB based 2490 or the aRGB based 2690. i know it would be the perfect thing to get both 2490 and 2690 but i do not have the amount of money atm and i dunno is it worth to get both too ( i have this thought of getting both 2490 and 2690 b4 cuz i wanted the 3090 in the first place ) ( or u guys can recommend me to other monitors too and please let me know the price of that too, thanks ) i dunno what other personal reference do i need to tell u so u guys can help me out better, so please let me know

i will be adding more when i can think of it and remember lol

Cheers!

KeesoN

 

[Nill Toulme]

Welcome to OPF Keeson!

If you are just starting to edit your pictures — or even very experienced in that — you will be perfectly happy with either of these monitors for that purpose. The larger gamut of the 2690 is an advantage for certain extremely critical color management purposes, but that's far from saying it's necessary. Most of us are editing our work on sRGB monitors, and many of us are doing it successfully on monitors that aren't nearly as good as the 2490, much less the 2690. And either of them very likely provides the most bang for your buck currently available for photo editing use.

What I can't tell you is which of these two would be better for non-photo applications like movies and games. You should check the gaming sites for reviews in that context.

Nill
~~
www.toulme.net

 

[Edward Bussa]

many of us are doing it successfully on monitors that aren't nearly as good as the 2490, much less the 2690. And either of them very likely provides the most bang for your buck currently available for photo editing use.

Well said, and thank you for saying it! That kind of takes some of the pressure off that I feel in making this particular decision...

Now... what non-mac laptop has the best screen for photo-editing?