New Bond Girl (part I)

[Nikolai Sklobovsky]

Helen and me decided to have some portrait fun.
Nothing special, just a family room, a backdrop, one PW-controlled light, 50mm "fantastic plastic" and an air-soft gun.
For the record: as an L-gun, it does have a bright red tip, but a little PS goes a long way.

Below are few excerpts from the shoot.

New Bond Girl:

White knuckles:

"Don't mess with me!" (internally we used a bit stronger word, but I don't want to berak PC limits here:

New Bill Girl:

The rest is here: http://nik.smugmug.com/gallery/1822619

 

[Asher Kelman]

I see your are very well protected!

The last image version is excellent.

We could perhaps to use that as the symbol for out Provocative Thoughts & Images if we have a design for that in out overall look some day. Not that we'll do it, but it would now be interesting to have a similar picture for the Layback Cafe. Looks like another challenge! Don't take it that we'll do this, but I've been thinking of something like this to show the 3 main divisions of OPF.

Asher

 

[Nikolai Sklobovsky]

Asher,

I see your are very well protected!

you have no idea
This was only her sidearm...
Her primary (firearm) is AK-47 and she already got the war-name "Helen The Menslayer" ))

The last image version is excellent.

Well, thank you!

We could perhaps to use that as the symbol for out Provocative Thoughts & Images if we have a design for that in out overall look some day. Not that we'll do it, but it would now be interesting to have a similar picture for the Layback Cafe. Looks like another challenge! Don't take it that we'll do this, but I've been thinking of something like this to show the 3 main divisions of OPF.
Asher

Let me know when ready )

Cheers!

 

[leonardobarreto.com]

hi

I went to war once and saw what weapons can do on people and it is never nice, there was also a lot of "friendly" fire, one time a girl like the one in the photo was shot by a young soldier accidentally. It was so sad that if you had been there the two together -- a young life and a gun -- would only make you plain sad. Imagine to die when you are young, just when you finally are getting close to be an adult, you are playing with a friend that thinks that can impress a young attractive girl with his military weapon and in a second the game goes to a new dimension, you don't know what happened buy can't breath you are drowning in your own blood... picture that please





For vocab only

 

[Nikolai Sklobovsky]

Leonardo,

I went to war once and saw what weapons can do on people and it is never nice, there was also a lot of "friendly" fire, one time a girl like the one in the photo was shot by a young soldier accidentally. It was so sad that if you had been there the two together -- a young person and a gun -- would only make you plain sad. Imagine to die when you are young, just when you finally are getting close to be an adult, you are playing with a friend that thinks that can impress a young attractive girl with his military weapon and in a second the game goes to a new dimension, you don't know what happened buy can't breath you are drowning in your own blood... picture that please

I've looked at your pictures and can surely understand where you're coming from.
Having said that.. The juxtaposition of a fine young women (that ultimately gives life) and a weapon (that takes one) was the heart and soul of many artists work throughout the history of a mankind.
I don't think I crossed any moral barriers here, honestly (especially given the fair warning that this is, in fact, an innocent air-soft gun, whose red tip has been "removed" in post processing).

Hope we're all on the same page here..

Cheers!

 

[Asher Kelman]

Several points from this.

Security issues:

I made minor word swops above. It's a perhaps a good idea not to disclose any more than "young person" to prevent unwanted arrivals at our website.

Related, but O.T. : I'm trying to protect our freedom for photographic subject. For this reason, I also suggest we use "natural human form" or similar instead of the perfectly fine 4 letter n-word. These and obvious search words like the anglo saxon f-word will be blocked. These simple euphamistic devices might slow access to OPF by nefarious prowlers.

Getting a Model: You just ask someone, that's all. Just be professional and encourage a chaperone. A makeup person is always useful in that regard.

Consent:

Get Consent and Proof of age. Photograph any driver's license and documents.

Intent of picture: Know what it is.

Impact of picture: Try to think who the audience might be and how it relfects on you and your views. I'm not suggesting one should restrict oneself, but at least consider the impact.

Here, there is no intent to belittle the tragedy of guns in society.

This would be a topic in itself for the Provocative Thoughts & Images forum

http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=62

"Use of guns in art: Socially O.K. or is it reckless entertainment?"

What do you think?

Meanwhile, I like the fact that the shots were taken with a simple setup which allows learning.

Further portraits with cards and/or reflectors would be a next step.

Asher

 

[Nikolai Sklobovsky]

It was nothing, really...

...
Meanwhile, I like the fact that the shots were taken with a simple setup which allows learning.
...

The "techinque" is one old-as-the-skies PS filter called "Stamp"
Well, I adjusted the threshold to taste...

I can add, however, that this was something I envisioned before I pressed the shutter...

HTH

 

[Dierk Haasis]

Here, there is no intent to belittle the tragedy of guns in society.

Meanwhile, I like the fact that the shots were taken with a simple setup which allows learning.

As these quotes show, we have to be very careful - and I am definitely not an advocate of PC as Asher will attest! - when using certain sujets. With animate object the informal 'shoot' for 'picturing' is very unfortunate - I hope none of us shoots people, apes, elephants etc.!

Most of us are lucky enough to have been born long after WW2 ended, many will be equally lucky to have never experienced war or [criminal] violence close by. Nikolai, I have relatively little trouble with what you did photograph, but please do not sell it as high concept. None of the examples presented here carry the dichotomy of life-death you invoke. They are, as you knew quite well when naming the thread, of the glamour or advertising genre - nothing against that, personally I love the 80s James Bond paperback covers or the 60s and 70s movie posters.

The way your 'Menslayer' is presented is definitely not about life*. Unfortunately it is not even provocative - except that someone pointing a gun at me point blank will always provoke me to kill if possible [and I include life-like toy guns]. Just look at what EON did with their posters, several publishers with their covers for the lasciviously dangerous gun-toters. Or what some Playboy art directors did when using guns and girls.




*The first thing going through my mind when seeing the first image was a certain kind of pornography in which mostly naked, oiled, well-muscled girls sport heavy artillery - which is really about life vs. death, softness vs. violence.

 

[Ray West]

There are many things in this world that I wish didn't happen. Posting picture of kids playing with guns is one of them. I think it conjures up future memories of what could have been.

However, for some reason, if I see the pictures of kids with guns in the war torn areas of Africa/wherever, it does not cause the same _sort_ of response in me. I think it is because they have little choice in the matter, they know no differance, whatever. Your young lady should know that a weapon should be treated with respect (ahem... - think Gurkha, here ;-) )

The only time I ever knowingly pointed a gun at anyone was when I was getting a shotgun fitted. It was not a pleasant experiance. I am not alone in that, the gunfitter said the majority of his customers felt the same. It goes against all your training as a human being, or something like.

wrt James Bond, I read one book in my teens, thought it was exciting, I part read a second, thought it was the same book, so it was boring. I saw one film, thought it was exciting, the second was boring for the same reason as the book... and I wuz younger back then... Now, I think of the films as boring, sexist, rubbish, manufactured to please the masses (a bit like the popular uk daily papers).

Best wishes,

Ray - publish and be damned...

 

[Nikolai Sklobovsky]

Nikolai, I have relatively little trouble with what you did photograph, but please do not sell it as high concept.

Where did you see me trying? It's an exercise (working with lighting and model for me), and posted here for a single reason:

There are no other fresh photographs in the whole Open Photography Forums.

Talk is cheap

None of the examples presented here carry the dichotomy of life-death you invoke.

It was only a response to Leonardo, original post was not presented as a life-death paradigm. Trust me, if I wanted to deliver L-D message, I would do it differently

They are, as you knew quite well when naming the thread, of the glamour or advertising genre - nothing against that, personally I love the 80s James Bond paperback covers or the 60s and 70s movie posters.

What can I say? Every man to his taste...

*The first thing going through my mind when seeing the first image was a certain kind of pornography in which mostly naked, oiled, well-muscled girls sport heavy artillery - which is really about life vs. death, softness vs. violence.

Well, if *this* reminds you of pornography... What can I do.. ;-)

Cheers! )

 

[Nikolai Sklobovsky]

Ray,

However, for some reason, if I see the pictures of kids with guns in the war torn areas of Africa/wherever, it does not cause the same _sort_ of response in me. I think it is because they have little choice in the matter, they know no differance, whatever.

Interesting.. So, picture of the African lads with real AKs, which they actually shoot and kill with, is OK, but a little girl training an air-soft gun at a camera - big no-no?

Your young lady should know that a weapon should be treated with respect (ahem... - think Gurkha, here ;-) )

Believe me - she does. This is never a toy. It's used for two things only - play air-soft and pose for daddy's camera. )

The only time I ever knowingly pointed a gun at anyone was when I was getting a shotgun fitted. It was not a pleasant experiance. I am not alone in that, the gunfitter said the majority of his customers felt the same. It goes against all your training as a human being, or something like.

wrt James Bond, I read one book in my teens, thought it was exciting, I part read a second, thought it was the same book, so it was boring. I saw one film, thought it was exciting, the second was boring for the same reason as the book... and I wuz younger back then... Now, I think of the films as boring, sexist, rubbish, manufactured to please the masses (a bit like the popular uk daily papers).

You know what makes me most curious in this thread? Everyone is discussing some high moral dilemmas of children and guns, life and death, etc. and no one (except Asher said anything about the photographs themselves.

Was my lighting wrong? Was my b/w flat? Was my model tense? Anything? Anybody?

Let's talk NAPP, not NRA. There are plenty o'places for that all over the 'Net. ;-)

Best wishes,

Thanks, same to you!

Cheers!

 

[Dierk Haasis]

You know what makes me most curious in this thread? Everyone is discussing some high moral dilemmas of children and guns, life and death, etc. and no one (except Asher said anything about the photographs themselves.

Read my message again and you see that I do talk about the photos. I am just not interested to talk about lighting, particularly if the theme is much more interesting. the 'high concept' which I talk about is your allusion to life vs. death, which you see in all of art history. Are you telling me now that the images are just exercises in how to light a gun? Why then start with this life-death nonsense?

Dissociating ethics from content seems a bit ... difficult, don't you think? Choosing a morally loaded theme and then saying it doesn't matter is rather hypocritical. As Ray pointed out, the 10-year old Rwandian with an AK-47 is definitely disconcerting, and the reason why he is forced to run around with a gun, shooting other children is surely worth any kind of moral outrage. And that is exactly the reason why a photo of this lad wouldn't pose a problem - he has no choice, and the picture most likely tries to show the indecency, injustice and wrongfulness of his situation.

If you read my original message closer you will see that I have nothing against the sujet as such, just that we have to be careful with it - producing and talking.

 

[Nikolai Sklobovsky]

Dierk,

Calling "007 theme" a "morally loaded theme" is a wide stretch, don't you think? ;-)

And yes, it was excercise in posing and lighting.
Lighting a dark yet semi-reflective object, such as real-looking gun, properly is not as easy task as it may seem..

But if someone wants to discuss child pornography or Rwanda killings based on *these* pictures - I guess, the OPEN part of these forums will cover it.
I, being a techno-nerd, stick to its more down-to-earth actual PHOTOGRAPHY section..

Cheers! )

 

[Dierk Haasis]

Guns is a loaded theme - and yes, the pun is recognised. I expressly did not take exception to the James-Bond-Walking-Boobs-With-A-Gun theme, only of some rather frivolous phrases. Call me a moralist, or fuddy-duddy, or whatever, but guns are definitely not a light-hearted subject.


PS: Where does child pornography come in, my pornography note was not about children but sometthing like www.actiongirls.com [rather harmless]?

 

[Nikolai Sklobovsky]

Dierk,

Guns is a loaded theme - and yes, the pun is recognised. I expressly did not take exception to the James-Bond-Walking-Boobs-With-A-Gun theme, only of some rather frivolous phrases. Call me a moralist, or fuddy-duddy, or whatever, but guns are definitely not a light-hearted subject.

OK, I got it. No more guns for you, mister!

Now this is funny: of all the (rather numerous) comments I got in several other places, both online and IRL, plenty were photography-related, some were just usual pats, bot nobody started to derive War and Peace out of it or went gun-ho.
Yet here, at OPF, in Photography Discussions, in Portrait section, provided I clearly specified why and how those pictures were taken... Oh my

I wonder what will we start discussing when somebody posts a portrait of a fully dressed male with moustache. No less than holocaust, I guess..

 

[Asher Kelman]

.........

Dissociating ethics from content seems a bit ... difficult, don't you think? Choosing a morally loaded theme and then saying it doesn't matter is rather hypocritical. As Ray pointed out, the 10-year old Rwandian with an AK-47 is definitely disconcerting, and the reason why he is forced to run around with a gun, shooting other children is surely worth any kind of moral outrage. And that is exactly the reason why a photo of this lad wouldn't pose a problem - he has no choice, and the picture most likely tries to show the indecency, injustice and wrongfulness of his situation.

If you read my original message closer you will see that I have nothing against the sujet as such, just that we have to be careful with it - producing and talking.

Hi Dierk,

I find what you have said is important. Guns are important symbols of unrestrained use of murderous power.

The analysis is correct. The significance of the discussion here is greater. We are a still a very long way away from dealing with our animal origins as hunters. So we have little conscience to the use of power.

That choice between the "might” of could" to the restraint of "should" constitutes the relevant part of our development as master pirates of this planet. It is morality and as yet, described non-congruent cultural standards.

Having laid out the negative first let me perhaps surprise you by an opposite argument.

Back to your picture, Nikolai, I know you and am proud to have gained your friendship.

I see no irresponsibility in your pictures, since that would require a more direct link between a signal and a consequent action. It is not an instruction to kill not an argument for violence. I consider this is part of our need to scare ourselves and belongs to the James Bond metaphor of a powerful hero to protect society and despite all danger, not only succeed, but do so in style.

So where do I stand? I feel that we must balance education over ignorance and sensitivity over desensitization.

That, IMHO is a job for art. The work which does not merely show but sets up a question is perhaps the most valuable.

The fact that the picture forced us to discuss this is, in itself worth pondering.

Asher

 

[Ray West]

Hi Nikolai,

I did not say that it was OK for kids in Africa... etc.., I am sorry if you thought I said that. I tried to explain where I thought the reasons for my differnt feelings about the different situations arose. I am not trying to score any sort of points in this whatsoever, but you said you were 'having some portrait fun', so I thought you were not posting for assessment of anything much. I gave my views on the content/style of the photos, the reaction it got from me. You can take notice or not. You said it was a soft air pistol, you tried to make it look something different, more threatening than it really is, bearing in mind no child never lost their sight by playing with air guns.

I am saying, if you are seeking advice on how to take photos of people with guns, then maybe it would make sense if the person holding the gun knew how to use it. I think if they were trained in its use, they would not point it at anyone. Its the staring down the barrel thing.

Come to think of it, Many years ago I used to play 'cowboys and Indians'. Probably that is no longer allowed today....

Anyway, picture 1, I can see the folds? in the background a bit, and I find the dark glasses and shadow from the gun a distraction. But the glasses, well that's the style of them, so Ok, I can't see her eyes. Her arms, being in shadow, look like arms in shadow, I guess..

Picture 2 strong light, high contrast, very difficult. I have a black and white dog - very difficult to get a decent photo. The black gun and pale fingers, the same. I guess you could have dimmed the lights a bit.

Picture 3 the gun spoils her face, the ppd eyes do not help.

The 4th one, is interesting. Maybe do a bit of freehand drawing, some detail in the gun, her face and hair, I don't know, but well worth playing with in pp.

wrt the gallery, I like the 'armed and dangerous' pose, although there is a bit too much eye white on my monitor, at that small size.

I not sure how it works in your part of USA (I'm in UK) but if you have clay pidgeon shooting grounds, maybe you call it 'skeet', a different discipline over here, take her for some professional coaching, pracrtice shoot, however its run. Then you will get some really great photos, and she will get some real fun.

Best wishes,

Ray





take care substituted less searchable terms about our young people.

 

[Nikolai Sklobovsky]

Ray,

Thank you for the photographic C&C, I truly appreciate it!

As to the "clay pigeons"...
She gets to shoot much more interesting targets - her buddies. And, unlike pigeons, those targets can shoot back..

I can see you don't know what an airsoft is.

It's a "live contact" war-like game, akin to paintball. Unlike paintball, where projectiles are soft-shelled 1/2" spheres with a paint inside (man, do they hurt, airsoft is using very light 6mm plastic biodegradable pellets. Everybody is wearing protective goggles and gear, all the "weapons" have mandatory red tips (I PS-ed mine in the picture). There is no messy paint stains, and it does not hurt as much. It's also much cheaper, at least ammo wise.
Just like snowboarding allowed an Average Joe to enter what used to be an elite world of skiing, airsoft allowed an easy entry for anybody who's simply willing to play. I also happen to know that it's been widely used as a training tool in real military and special forces units, due to the fact that the airsoft "weapons" can be (and usually are) made almost identical to the "real mccoys". When I first handled that airsoft AK-47 I could not believe how close it was to what I used to shoot from long time ago


Having said that - I'm not proponent of war, killing, etc. I don't have a shotgun in my house, or any fire-weapon for all that matter.

But I know how use it, how to handle it, and most important, how to treat it with respect.
And given the history of Russia, US and humankind in general, I don't mind young people in my own circle would learn the same, without actually going through the real thing.

Thanks again for the photo comments!

The next installment of this shoot won't have guns in it




take care substituted less searchable terms about our young people.

 

[Don Lashier]

The next installment of this shoot won't have guns in it

Maybe a martini (stirred, not shaken)?

- DL

 

[Nikolai Sklobovsky]

Don,

Maybe a martini (stirred, not shaken)?
- DL

That would be a travesty to have it that way..

And, as I mentioned earlier, the code name for the 2d part is "From Russia With Attitude".
You guys can start guessing

Cheers!

 

[Dierk Haasis]

Maybe a martini (stirred, not shaken)?

Dang, everybody gets it wrong, some years back even Michael Wilson had it backwards. Not only does a shaken Martini taste much better, it's the way JB drinks his - and it's a much better metaphor for his job!

[Edited just a typo]

 

[Don Lashier]

Dang, everybody gets it wrong

After Nikolai responded I just shut up hoping everyone would think I intentionally reversed it, but you caught me - I fess up to the mess up. Thing is I even did a google check before posting because I was uncertain, but google turned up 3 million results, most referencing Bond. What I didn't notice is that google outsmarted me and a closer examination of the top search results shows my search phrase reversed in bold (duh).

"stirred not shaken" just elocutes so much better.

(and I'm not a martini drinker)

- DL

 

[Mary Bull]

"stirred not shaken" just elocutes so much better.

I agree, it rolls more trippingly off the tongue.

(and I'm not a martini drinker)

Me neither.

 

[Nikolai Sklobovsky]

Total JB OT

...
"stirred not shaken" just elocutes so much better.
(and I'm not a martini drinker)
...
- DL

Martini is a very strong (alcoholic) beverage, and, just like a strong coffee, requires "an acquired taste". I.E. not that many people like it right off the bat, but once you get used to it..

There are many ways to mix a martini, here is how I ultimately like it.

Shaker is filled with glass cubes (not crushed ice! it dilutes too much, to my taste buds at least).
Your favorite vodka brand - I like Ketel One or Grey Goose - is taken from the freezer (it should be slightly viscous) and 3 oz added to shaker.

Have a martini glass chilled in advance (I keep one in the freezer right next to the bottle). Once you get it out, it immediately gets covered with a thin layer of frost. Pour 1/2 oz of Martini Extra Dry into the glass, the roll it slightly skewed, so the vermouth covers all the frosty surface inside the glass. Lose the rest. The layer of the frost will now keep the "hint" of the vermouth.

Shake the shaker vigorously for 15-20 seconds. Open and pour into the glass. The liquid should be filled with air bubbles and ice shaves. It clears fast, so hurry up now.

Quickly to the garnish. Stuffed olives are "the weapon of choice" here. There are many brands of olives and many different stuffings available. I lately developed an attraction to Piru-Piru pepper.

I also often exercise the "dirty" version, when a few drops of olive marinade is added to the martini at the very end - it creates a nice visual "impurity" in the otherwise clear liquid.

Done! You can take the first sip...
Mmmhh... OK, now I'm ready to save the world!
And where did that girl go again?? ;-)

Enjoy!

 

[Mary Bull]

To each his own, then.

I'd rather have a well-stirred glass of chilled boiled custard, on Christmas morn, flavored with a tablespoon or so of Maker's Mark. <friendly smile>

 

[Dierk Haasis]

Nikolai's recipe is actually a Vodkatini [or Vodka Martini; the second part goes back to one of the biggest vermouth producers in Italy; I'd prefer French vermouth], a classic Martini cocktail is ade with Gin. For a Vodkatini I recommend to try out Polish vodka, aromatised slightly with buffalo grass. Or use Finnish vodka.

It is some time since I've read Ian Fleming's (and some others) novels, IRC, JB prefers Polish and Finnish vodka over Russian. Fleming used Lillet, and instead of an olive a lemon [or lime?] peel. His ratio was 3:1:1/2 Gordon's Dry Gin:Vodka:Lillet. There's some debate over the actual vermouth used, Fleming wrote in Casino Royale of Kina Lillet, which was later called a mistake by Kingsley Amis since Kina Lillet would be much too bitter.

 

[Sean DeMerchant]

"stirred not shaken" just elocutes so much better.

(and I'm not a martini drinker)

For any college graduate who passed freshman chemistry with at least a 2.0 (C average grade) it should be clearly known that a shaken rather than stirred drink cools the liquid faster resulting in a more refreshingly cool drink. That said, with gin it should be a gin in tonic with lime in 80 F+ temps or simply bourbon rocks without any of that toxic tasting overpriced Makers Mark*.

enjoy,

Sean

* In grad school in the South I tried nearly all of them, and of bourbons and sour mashes Ezra Brooks is the best** (and nearly one of the cheapest in spite of having a cork rather than screw top).

** Past the low price range of $40 USD per bottle single malt highland scotches rule***, but below that point nothing beats Ezra Brooks.

*** I like inexpensive bourbon and dislike cheap scotch, and money is only 10% of the reasoning behind this as there are fantastic inexpensive bourbons****.

**** Cheap scotch should only be used for removing paint and expensive bourbons ,while not quite so nauseating, smell like they are paint remover.

 

[Mary Bull]

simply bourbon rocks without any of that toxic tasting overpriced and toxic tasting Makers Mark*.

You don't like boiled custard? <grinning, ducking, and running>

* In grad school in the South I tried nearly all of them, and of bourbons and sour mashes Ezra Brooks is the best** (and nearly one of the cheapest in spite of having a cork rather than screw top).

You don't like Jack Daniels Black Label? <serious question, since it's among my favorites>

 

[Nikolai Sklobovsky]

You don't like Jack Daniels Black Label? <serious question, since it's among my favorites>

I <also seriously> prefer Johnny Walker Blue one over other scotches.. )

 

[nicolas claris]

You don't like Jack Daniels Black Label? <serious question, since it's among my favorites>

Oh yes ! I prefer it "sour"
Hic!