No Title

[Paul Abbott]

Why don't you try converting it to colour ?

I gave an honest critique of it and was given this answer in reply. What kind of an answer is this, other than a bombastically deluded one?
Anyway, I know you have a 'chip' on your shoulder towards me, James. That is apparent with all what you've been saying...

 

[Chris Calohan II]

"So what do you want, James," Tom queried. Tom and some others in this particular discourse very much remind me of Timothy Leary. In a casual event he would throw with hundreds of non-related guests, he'd seemingly chance upon a group of three or four folks having a casual conversation and out of the blue, grab a catch phrase from one poor victim, as would a spider hooking his prey in the web; "wrong," he would almost shout yet it could rally only be heard by those in the group. Eyes glazed, his mind somewhere off in another part of no one else's reality, he'd go on a rant as to how their thinking was flawed, "and how about this?," he'd rant, "or that?," he'd continue, at times coming very close to making sense, but never really doing more than imparting his own made up philosophy as to what really existed, then off he'd go to prey on another group.

Oh my, Tom, et.al., sometimes you being back the oddest memories. James was clear in asking for a critique on the image he presented. He didn't ask that anyone impart a redirect to him as to his mindset, thoughts, sense of place or anything else; he simply asked for a critique.

I too disagree with any rearranging of another's work unless the author clearly proposes such an idea is fair game. In most cases, when I post for critique, I do so with the need to know if the conversion feels" right" or if the composition" sits well" with others. I want others to use sound photographic critiquing skills to evaluate the photograph on what's presented. I value other's impressions but not in such a manner that alters what's being presented. I often work with an image for several hours in which case my own perspective becomes skewed.

My advice to Tom or anyone else is to read first, think before opening one's pie hole then speak to only what's been addressed, but then, that's just me. Frankly, if Tom never speaks to anything I ever post again, it will be a banner day. I will not address this to anyone else as I like to reserve judgment outside other's squabbles. Timothy Leary's dead...he really wasn't a "head" of his times, and neither are you, Tom.

 

[Cem_Usakligil]

Hi James,

I am with the comments made by Tom, Jerome and Paul on this. You have been rather obnoxious about your position that you have brought a picture and asked for critique and that should be it. More is not needed, you said. And then you have challenged us to edit and title the image, which is mind bogglingly strange. Others have tried to engage you in an open discussion which you've refused. The only thing which is left for us is then to ignore your picture, which is what I have done. Besides, having dealt with the phenomenon of providing "critique" for pictures on the web for almost ten years now, I have come to the definitive conclusion that it cannot be done, period. Do not go asking for critique unless you don't know anything about photography and you are trying to find your way by means of trial and error based on the opinions of others. One's photographs should not be based on public polls and popularity contests. If you are an artist, the only person who decides how the pictures should look like is you.

 

[Cem_Usakligil]

... James was clear in asking for a critique on the image he presented. He didn't ask that anyone impart a redirect to him as to his mindset, thoughts, sense of place or anything else; he simply asked for a critique.
...

I thought it was simply rubbish. Would that be a valid answer Chris?

 

[Paul Abbott]

Why is he even bothering asking for critique when he has already stated that he knows a good image when he sees one...!? It makes me laugh...

 

[Chris Calohan II]

I thought it was simply rubbish. Would that be a valid answer Chris?

I would think so but personally, I'd give a directed reason for my thoughts. I just don't like being grilled as to what my thoughts were, what do I think, etc., when posting an image. Sometimes it's just to see what kind of reaction I get from others....I don't know, sometimes I think there is more esoteric philosophical rubbish than actual critique.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Mea Culpa

Hi James,

I am with the comments made by Tom, Jerome and Paul on this. You have been rather obnoxious about your position that you have brought a picture and asked for critique and that should be it. More is not needed, you said. And then you have challenged us to edit and title the image, which is mind bogglingly strange. Others have tried to engage you in an open discussion which you've refused. The only thing which is left for us is then to ignore your picture, which is what I have done. Besides, having dealt with the phenomenon of providing "critique" for pictures on the web for almost ten years now, I have come to the definitive conclusion that it cannot be done, period. Do not go asking for critique unless you don't know anything about photography and you are trying to find your way by means of trial and error based on the opinions of others. One's photographs should not be based on public polls and popularity contests. If you are an artist, the only person who decides how the pictures should look like is you.

Cem,

It's utterly my idea and fault, if any is to be cast, that Jim offered us the opportunity to use his image as a starting point, as if we'd each come across a forgotten shot our own on a hard drive. So we each would show myriads of different ways to develop a snap shot to a picture with the intent one has today, having lost touch with its origin.

With that, I imagined we'd get some creative juices flowing, as we had way back when Leica M1 pictures were shared of New York's Central Park in the autumn covered with yellow, red, sienna and golden leaves. Or again with a Boy On a Bicycle in Munich that I offered up for imaginative editing. (I'll search for that image of mine and fix the link). The idea worked before, but now the mood has changed and it fell flat! Sorry for that. It was entirely my idea and direct rotten eggs and stones to me, mea culpa.

I realize now that to get folk to express their own ideas freely, the picture can't already be tainted by resentments.

Forgive me!

Asher

 

[Cem_Usakligil]

Hi Asher,

Cem,

It's utterly my idea and fault, if any is to be cast, that Jim offered us the opportunity to use his image as a starting point, as if we'd each come across a forgotten shot our own on a hard drive. So we each would show myriads of different ways to develop a snap shot to a picture with the intent one has today, having lost touch with its origin.

With that, I imagined we'd get some creative juices flowing, as we had way back when Leica M1 pictures were shared of New York's Central Park in the autumn covered with yellow, red, sienna and golden leaves. Or again with a Boy On a Bicycle in Munich that I offered up for imaginative editing. (I'll search for that image of mine and fix the link). The idea worked before, but now the mood has changed and it fell flat! Sorry for that. It was entirely my idea and direct rotten eggs and stones to me, mea culpa.

I realize now that to get folk to express their own ideas freely, the picture can't already be tainted by resentments.

Forgive me!

Asher

You are being too harsh on yourself now. There is no need to ask for forgiveness and even if there was, you'd have mine any day.

I was actually talking about this phenomenon with Bart yesterday. That we have a history of putting up pictures as a challenge in OPF and that it used to be a very active part of our community in the past. Newcomers as Tom do not know this heritage and may find this to be a strange custom. Those of us who have been here from the beginning realize that it has been a gradual process and it feels not so strange to us. But the reason why the situation nowadays is different is worthy of an investigation.

I too have thought about that particular picture of the Central Park. The challenge back then was not a photographical one if you ask me. It was a technical one. The raw converters were in their infancies and not everybody had one or knew how to use one properly. Technologies of the cameras and softtware were not mature, they were evolving very quickly. We were all new to digital photography and there was much to be discussed and to be discovered. Within that context, those challenges were kind of crucibles to try and learn from each other's experiences and results. But now, things have stabilized and the software is much more mature and also easier to use. Most of us use the 3-4 main programs available out there and we are all more or less proficient in doing so. So now, the nature of a challenge is no longer a technical one. And therein lies the rub imo.

 

[Cem_Usakligil]

I would think so but personally, I'd give a directed reason for my thoughts. I just don't like being grilled as to what my thoughts were, what do I think, etc., when posting an image. Sometimes it's just to see what kind of reaction I get from others....I don't know, sometimes I think there is more esoteric philosophical rubbish than actual critique.

Fair enough Chris. If you go back a year or two in posts, you'll see that I have been thinking just like you on these matters back then. So what has changed for me is that I have come to the conclusion that appropriate C&C in fora is not really possible. Despite that, if somebody still wants to get C&C from lookers, I think that they should at least provide some pointers as to what they are looking for. You, for example, ask direct questions such as is the BW or the color version better, etc. That is easy to answer.

 

[Asher Kelman]

..................if somebody still wants to get C&C from lookers, I think that they should at least provide some pointers as to what they are looking for. You, for example, ask direct questions such as is the BW or the color version better, etc. That is easy to answer.

Cem,

Stating one's goals allows folk to direct the O.P. towards realization of their needs. We have always said that OPF is about each of us have different chosen paths. Stating where one wants to go should be a pre-requisite for any C&C.

Asher

 

[Chris Calohan II]

Fair enough Chris. If you go back a year or two in posts, you'll see that I have been thinking just like you on these matters back then. So what has changed for me is that I have come to the conclusion that appropriate C&C in fora is not really possible. Despite that, if somebody still wants to get C&C from lookers, I think that they should at least provide some pointers as to what they are looking for. You, for example, ask direct questions such as is the BW or the color version better, etc. That is easy to answer.

Cem, I'm not sure there is a right answer to this. I agree on almost every level but as I found with my students, they often didn't know the right questions to ask, thusly leaving it to their peers to perhaps provide a little direction.

 

[Chris Calohan II]

Cem,

Stating one's goals allows folk to direct the O.P. towards realization of their needs. We have always said that OPF is about each of us have different chosen paths. Stating where one wants to go should be a pre-requisite for any C&C.

Asher

If, as I answered to Cem, one knows where to go...and perhaps at this level of posting this should be au natural...but, I still find myself mucking my way through a myriad of possibilities in almost every image I make.

 

[Asher Kelman]

If, as I answered to Cem, one knows where to go...and perhaps at this level of posting this should be au natural...but, I still find myself mucking my way through a myriad of possibilities in almost every image I make.

I must admit to getting lost myself when I come home with my pictures, shooting a beautiful model against an equally stunning b.g. of grasses, trees, flowers and sky. The image on the screen has everything captured perfectly, all with the same clarity and importance, (except where lighting or DOF does the ranking for us). So we have to decide how to present this picture. Now rarely, there are folks who can take a picture and it will not need any significant edits. I think Nicolas Claris can do this. Certainly it's a habit of some expert product, event or wedding photographers.

Most of us look at her picture and wonder why it does not have the spread of components ranked in importance, the way we experienced it. In fact, many of our pictures do need edits to rank the elements in significance. We can change focus, sharpness, contrast, color and more. In doing so the experience of the viewer also is transformed to what we want to show them.

So, looking at a picture at home can be a daunting task as there are so many ways the image cane be worked and presented. Pros with a paid assignment to deliver on time, know exactly what they will deliver! The artist might too. However, just shooting what's interesting in the park get's us a lot of unanswered questions!

What surprises me is that a picture I think will be in color turns out best in a toned B&W or the opposite.

To some extent, being too creative at the computer screen is not so efficient when reviewing one's pictures. The amount of work one can create leads to a black hole that sucks in 4-6 hours at a time! It can be exhausting! My comfort is that the greatest photographers spent more time in the darkroom than actually taking the pictures!

Asher

 

[Chris Calohan II]

And there lays the point of it all....what to do, what to do, what to do....Good Answer, Asher.

 

[Jerome Marot]

It is quite simple, really.

James posted a picture about a controversial subject, Tom asked wether it was about the subject or about the picture and we still don't know what is expected from us.

Chris who, if I counted correctly, posted about a zillion pictures asking for critique but rarely ventures an opinion himself, believes that what a "critique" should be does not need an explanation. Except that Cem knows that nobody agrees on what a critique really is and nobody really wants to be criticized.

Except Asher, maybe. Asher signature tells it all: "Our purpose is getting to an impressive photograph".

Show me an impressive photograph.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Jemand schaltet das Licht an!

It is quite simple, really....................

Show me an impressive photograph.

Jerome,

It's as if someone turned on the light in a dark room. Why couldn't we see it before? In fact, for the moment, I thought that you snapped at the same event, the same fellow, but in better light! I even checked the face, but the eyebrow make up is so different.

The decorated man gets us, but to notice him and then we see he's enjoying a good time drinking a beer and very happy with himself, at least for right now. We do not question technic, choice of lens, position or timing as we are already drawn into the gestalt of this universe, the gestalt of his world. It's all real. We can almost reach out and tap on the table to get his attention.

It's all the years of decision-making on other pictures that allows this one to come out as it did, not the specifics of the camera, lens and lighting as the same photographer with a different camera on a different day could also make an equally impressive picture of the man. It would be very different, for sure, but still impressive.

Asher

 

[Tom dinning]

"So what do you want, James," Tom queried. Tom and some others in this particular discourse very much remind me of Timothy Leary. In a casual event he would throw with hundreds of non-related guests, he'd seemingly chance upon a group of three or four folks having a casual conversation and out of the blue, grab a catch phrase from one poor victim, as would a spider hooking his prey in the web; "wrong," he would almost shout yet it could rally only be heard by those in the group. Eyes glazed, his mind somewhere off in another part of no one else's reality, he'd go on a rant as to how their thinking was flawed, "and how about this?," he'd rant, "or that?," he'd continue, at times coming very close to making sense, but never really doing more than imparting his own made up philosophy as to what really existed, then off he'd go to prey on another group.

Oh my, Tom, et.al., sometimes you being back the oddest memories. James was clear in asking for a critique on the image he presented. He didn't ask that anyone impart a redirect to him as to his mindset, thoughts, sense of place or anything else; he simply asked for a critique.

I too disagree with any rearranging of another's work unless the author clearly proposes such an idea is fair game. In most cases, when I post for critique, I do so with the need to know if the conversion feels" right" or if the composition" sits well" with others. I want others to use sound photographic critiquing skills to evaluate the photograph on what's presented. I value other's impressions but not in such a manner that alters what's being presented. I often work with an image for several hours in which case my own perspective becomes skewed.

My advice to Tom or anyone else is to read first, think before opening one's pie hole then speak to only what's been addressed, but then, that's just me. Frankly, if Tom never speaks to anything I ever post again, it will be a banner day. I will not address this to anyone else as I like to reserve judgment outside other's squabbles. Timothy Leary's dead...he really wasn't a "head" of his times, and neither are you, Tom.

Hey, Chris.
Thanks for the blography.
Sorry I was a bit too 'intellectual' for you. I'll try using monosyllabic grunts next time. You might feel more at home.
I'm not likely to take your advice since you didn't seem to take it upon yourself to do the same. Did you mean for me to think like you do? Or perhaps to think like James, Asher, Jerome or any other contributor here. Although I appreciate what they say here, there are many points that I would like to discuss further, mainly to clarify my own thoughts as well as provide some direction to them, if I feel it might be needed. Mind you, they usually ignore me, as you will from this point on. Nevertheless, as long as I don't cross the line and become abusive , racist or foul mouthed, I'm allowed to have my say.
Unfortunately this may be my final post. Ive just woken from a restless night of disturbed sleep filled with dreams of rejection and hostility from OPF and I'm in the mood to be all three.
So, before I have my first shot of LSD for the day, let me say: go **** ! you ****, *****, *****.
Ah! That feels better. Now for something more intellectual.
Where's my Superman comic?

 

[Asher Kelman]

So, before I have my first shot of LSD for the day, let me say: go **** ! you ****, *****, *****.
Ah! That feels better. Now for something more intellectual.
Where's my Superman comic?

Good thing NSA installed word filters for us!

 

[James Lemon]

Hi James,

I am with the comments made by Tom, Jerome and Paul on this. You have been rather obnoxious about your position that you have brought a picture and asked for critique and that should be it. More is not needed, you said. And then you have challenged us to edit and title the image, which is mind bogglingly strange. Others have tried to engage you in an open discussion which you've refused. The only thing which is left for us is then to ignore your picture, which is what I have done. Besides, having dealt with the phenomenon of providing "critique" for pictures on the web for almost ten years now, I have come to the definitive conclusion that it cannot be done, period. Do not go asking for critique unless you don't know anything about photography and you are trying to find your way by means of trial and error based on the opinions of others. One's photographs should not be based on public polls and popularity contests. If you are an artist, the only person who decides how the pictures should look like is you.

So you are saying you have the same experience of this image as the others you have mentioned? Really!
I am a very busy person without a lot time to give a immediate response to every person who may be a little to sensitive about their feelings or poses some ridiculous questions about my state of mind or my intentions. I appreciate your comments however I am only interested in sharing images and to get some feedback and am curious to know their thoughts and experience of the image. I don't believe that any two photohogs would view an image the same as each other. So what heading would you suggest I post images under ? I thought all images posted are free game for constructive criticism and comment unless other wise stated.

 

[James Lemon]

I gave an honest critique of it and was given this answer in reply. What kind of an answer is this, other than a bombastically deluded one?
Anyway, I know you have a 'chip' on your shoulder towards me, James. That is apparent with all what you've been saying...

It was only a question Mr Paul . Why the big flame? You are the one who suggested it may look better in color . Pay closer attention to the thread, maybe. I don't know why you would think I have a chip on my shoulder towards you? Where did that come from. My only disappointment would be your decision to work in color.Is just a phase you are going through to try something different maybe? I very much enjoyed your B/W and feel that the photographic community is loosing a very talented B/W photographer. BTW don't try converting the image because their aren't any color channels to work with.

 

[Asher Kelman]

I thought all images posted are free game for constructive criticism and comment unless other wise stated.

Jim,

That's true! Your image really did stimulate some rich discussion. We just need to collect the positive out of it. In fact, that's the essential tool for using any advice, even if you pay good money, as to a lawyer, engineer or physician. We're well advised to pass all feedback to recognize biases from others own needs or nature. We have to filter what they advise against our core ideas and values.

In internet photo-critique, it's just as important. There can be a valuable kernel amongst the garbage! So I try to learn from what others that give time to my pictures. Still, we have to safeguard the interests of our own unique vision and not pander to what a group might want of us.

I set my own course!

I do not allow myself to redirect my sails with every flag signal others run up their masts! Often there are good greetings. Occasionally I get shown the way by folk smarter than I am in what I need to know get where I'm heading.

Other times folk seem mean-spirited. We see "skull and crossbones", when really, the guy is no brazen pirate, just off their meds, depressed, girlfriend gone, rent due or all of the above!

I see good value in this thread of yours. Most of all, look at Jerome's fellow in drag, post #45. That one really stops me in my tracks. What did it do for you?

Asher

 

[James Lemon]

Jim,

That's true! Your image really did stimulate some rich discussion. We just need to collect hte positive out of it. In fact, that's the essential tool for using any advice, even if you pay good money, as to a lawyer, engineer or physician. Folk sometimes pass their feedback through a modulation biases to hteir own needs or nature. We have to have a filter and check what they advise against our core ideas and values.

In internet photo-critique, it's just as important.Sure, have an open mind for other's viewpoints. I try to learn from what others feel about things. Still, I have the interests of my own vision in a safe mode. I set my own course!

I do not allow myself to redirect my sails with every flag signal others run up their masts! Often there are good greetings. Occasionally I get shown the way by folk smarter than I am in what I need to know get where I'm heading.

Other times folk seem mean-spirited. We see "skull and crossbones", when really, the guy is no brazen pirate, just off their meds, depressed, girlfriend gone, rent due or all of the above!

I see good value in this thread of yours. Most of all, look at Jerome's fellow in drag. That one really stops me in my tracks. What did it do for you?

Asher

Its bigger than life, a great capture! What comes to my mind in mine and Jerrome's image is obvious how they stand out amongst the crowd and I am not comparing the two images but each gives me a sense of something I can not put my finger on. Both subjects appear to be very comfortable within themselves and display a gentle quality.

 

[Chris Calohan II]

As to the farewell message...I'd respond but I can't stop laughing. As to the rest...there's really nothing to add.

 

[Tom dinning]

Good thing NSA installed word filters for us!

I'm a changed man, Asher. I filtered them myself. I had doubts as to the ability of a foreign filter to remove the Oz vernacular I was thinking of. Some of it related to dingos, goanna droppings and what New Zealanders do to sheep on a regular basis.
I'll test it if you like. Lets see what gets through.

Norks
Schlong
meat axe
Root
bludger

Hows it going so far? anything exploded?

 

[Paul Abbott]

Lmao...Oh man.

 

[Paul Abbott]

James, that was the point, you don't need to tell me they're are no colour channels, so why the reply? It was short and shrift too I felt...
Unfortunately there isn't much sign of smiling and laughing on this forum, no nuances really. It presents a little consternation I guess...

As for my change of heart and interest in colour, there's been a lot of thought behind what i'm doing. One point is is that I want my street photography images to look more contemporary and to reflect this age much better, I have been thinking that the use of B&W would detract from that.
I still have a great love for B&W but will use it in other genre's of photography...

Anyway, I don't hold any hard feelings for anyone at all...

 

[Cem_Usakligil]

So you are saying you have the same experience of this image as the others you have mentioned? Really! ..

No, that is not what I said. I meant that I agreed with those guys regarding their comments on your stubborn refusal to supply answers to their inquiries. My only comment about the image itself has been provided later as an answer to Chris.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Impressive & Relevant - A rare combination!

It is quite simple, really.

James posted a picture about a controversial subject, Tom asked wether it was about the subject or about the picture and we still don't know what is expected from us.

Chris who, if I counted correctly, posted about a zillion pictures asking for critique but rarely ventures an opinion himself, believes that what a "critique" should be does not need an explanation. Except that Cem knows that nobody agrees on what a critique really is and nobody really wants to be criticized.

Except Asher, maybe. Asher signature tells it all: "Our purpose is getting to an impressive photograph".

Show me an impressive photograph.

Jerome,

I really like this! We might not agree on the meaning of things but we can enjoy being jolted into attention and drawn in by an "impressive photograph". But what makes an "Impressive Photograph"? Surely it must be much more than perfect focus and exposure of beauty!

I find that beauty is hardly ever sufficient to justify treasuring a particular picture as a "photograph" to be exhibited. The extra magic is, I think a personal approach and stamp by the photographer who's way of seeing and balancing the elements in the picture add an essential spice. Even then, unless as here, the subject itself is interesting, all that skill comes to naught. One has to have an impressive idea to capture to get an impressive photograph.

I can work backwards and starting with my choice of an impressive photograph. However, it's much harder for me to predict and plan and rely on such an outcome. That, I guess is the constant struggle we have, to make pictures that rise above the clever and beautiful to be hopefully impressive.

Here, we've gone beyond that. The picture is both impressive and relevant!

Bravo Jerome!

Asher

 

[Michael_Stones]

Maybe a precondition for an impressive photo is an impressive subject. The photographer's tasks are to
be present at the right time, which takes thought, planning and good luck.
Cheers, Mike.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Maybe a precondition for an impressive photo is an impressive subject. The photographer's tasks are to
be present at the right time, which takes thought, planning and good luck.
Cheers, Mike.

But another photographer might take out a macro lens and frame disparate elements together that we might not even imagine could be connected. So from an unimpressive subject, the right photographer with the right technique might still make an impressive photograph - not always but enough so as to keep me for one humble!

Asher