OPF forum blog - making the shift to MF...or not.

[leonardobarreto.com]

Eric, here are, as i promise, the two image from the test shoot -- nothing exiting thematically -- with my friend's Canon 1Ds Mk2 and my P25/Mamiya.

It is difficult to see this sort of comparisons over the internet with crops converted to jpg (i used a No 6 compration)

I think that the conclusion could be that there is not a huge difference, but that there definitely is one.

 

[Eric Hiss]

Hi Leonardo,
Thanks for the kind words re: the beach shot of my son. Coming from you that means a lot.

Also thanks for sharing the comparison pictures. You can definitely see more of the surface texture of the painting with the lower crop image (which I expect is the p25?) and the colors are noticeably different between the two images particularly with the reds.
Eric

 

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

I think that the conclusion could be that there is not a huge difference, but that there definitely is one.

Thanks for sharing.

The most prominent difference in the upper image is the lack of proper sharpening. Even on the JPEG crop, and without knowledge of the actual imaging parameters, I can improve sharpeness a lot.

Bart

 

[Asher Kelman]

Thanks for sharing.

The most prominent difference in the upper image is the lack of proper sharpening. Even on the JPEG crop, and without knowledge of the actual imaging parameters, I can improve sharpeness a lot.

Bart

Is that true, Leonardo?

Asher

 

[leonardobarreto.com]

I don't remember what the sharpening numbers where, when we did this I had almost no experience with my back or C1, but my friend works with his Mk2 and C1, so I trusted him to do the raw conversions, but they where done with the same program on the same computer both by him.

Having said that I do see as if the Canon image (top) has no defined details or they have been "melted like cheese". I don't think you can bring back the info. from that.

This was not a comprehensive test, but just quick target practice among friends, I even forgot I had the images until I saw this thread.

What about a Rollei / Canon 5 D test shoot? that would be interesting

 

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Having said that I do see as if the Canon image (top) has no defined details or they have been "melted like cheese". I don't think you can bring back the info. from that.

This is just a quicky sharpening on the top image of the JPEG:

I converted from AdobeRGB to sRGB and resaved as JPEG (which will add to the compression artifacts).

Bart

 

[Eric Hiss]

If you open the top image Leonardo posted, you'll find its labeled the Phase test image and the bottom is the 1DsII. That's why I was confused because in the crop the phase appears to be the bottom image (image sets spatially reversed). I can guarantee you that the p25 image is going to be a lot sharper out of the box than the 1DsII since I have the p20 which is very similar. I have found that the Phase images require very little capture level sharpening if any. In fact if you use C1 to convert you almost have too much even with no sharpening applied.

There are a lot of variables here that can throw off results in such a comparison - RAW processing is a big one and lenses are another big item that can't always be leveled for a fair comparison. Lenses will effect nearly all qualities including sharpness, color and contrast. But then there's also lighting, camera profiles, accurate focusing, conversion to be shown on the web, etc.

I'm hoping to get my new Rollei Focusing screen this week so I can do another comparison with my 3 cameras in the studio, where I can control the lighting. Stay tuned!


btw - I took the Rollei out to the beach where I took the shot I posted of my son. I had the WLF fitted instead of the prism....wow that reversed image horizontally really is whacky - so hard for me to get used to. I don't think I got any useable shots at all. I put the prism back on right away when I got home - makes the camera heavier but at least I have a chance of getting an image.

 

[leonardobarreto.com]

Not bad at all Bart, I think that the Mk3 needed some more sharpening, I will open them again later in Photoshop and do some myself.

Eric, the order is inverted, and also didn't help that I included no footnote, but the full size images are top PhaseOne and on the crops it is the inverse. You can tell by the proportions.

I got used to a waist level finder with a Bronica my father gave me (it had a bunch of lenses all Nikkor, including a 50mm, and it made that impressive sound) and also with a Mamiya twin lens reflex. It is hard at first, but lots of fun... much easier than a view camera where things are upside-down literally.

 

[Eric Hiss]

sample p20 images

Hi All,
Some of you have been interested to view full size images from the Rollei/P20 setup. I had a little time today so went outside my house here in San Francisco and took some shots with the Rollei at ISO 50, 100, and 200. All shots hand held between 1/125 and 1/250 with mirror lockup. Taken at the park around the corner from my house.

Disclaimer - these are test images! These are not art or stock images. I wanted to see if I could hand hold the camera and still get sharp images (which I think I did in about 50% of the shots). Obviously they are not perfect images taken at the right time of day from the right angle on a tripod and edited with the "right" raw converter and sharpened just the right amount - otherwise I would not share them here and would be selling them! So feel free to download and mess with them!

Here's the link to a directory of full size jpegs and previews. Please open the previews first and then if you want to check out the full size images download them. If I run out of bandwidth, I will take down the link.

http://www.eh21.com/example pics/P20/

 

[Eric Hiss]

added a lightroom conversion of the 2021 image

Wow I think Lightroom 1.2 does a nice job on the P20 files. It's fun to see how much better these tools are with the phase files - fill light and highlight recovery really make big useable changes.

 

[leonardobarreto.com]

Eric

I like the images, I see some moire in the 002021-SF.jpg on the pyramid tower building -- I should know the name since it is an iconic landmark sorry --.

Have you decided yet if you will keep the P20? which system will you sell at the end?

I am not so sure this days if MF justifies the cost. Prices are going down. I have a friend that just got a Leaf 22 for $11.5k demo. That is much better than what I paid for mine, but on the other side, the value of my back is more or less preserved --which is good for my investment--.

I think that what I should do is to get more work to pay the back sooner and just enjoy it. For me is a very conformable system. It connects very robustly to the laptop, it is literally plug an play and unplug and rap up etc.

So, tell us what happens at the end

 

[Asher Kelman]

Hi Leonardo,

For sure there's Moiré in the pyramid tower, that's all the pyramid energy that pyramids collect! Anyway, it's a sort of little character and to my mind doesn't suvstantially alter a wonderfully rendered image. I think that picture could be rendered 10 ft high! The image is so Aan Francisco! Those row houses on the hills have such character with the garages crowded on to the small lots of gentrified buildings. Have you visited? Notice the homes are built one on top of the other and almost no gardens!

This remind me of the townshops in Rhodesia where they didn't allow for spaces between houses. That makes for better police control in as one tank can command a street and no one can escape.

Eric,

In your picture the closeness of the houses seems totally fitting with the landscape. The building are finely recorded and seem to have a lot of dimension which is less in the receding city to the horizon. Only then would one notice the Moiré in the tower, but one would have to look for it! Bottom line, I like the pictures! Where is that?

It looks like Noe Valley. This is a great place for young families, students and the young successful professionals who are buying up the area. I'd like to see more pictures including the people!!!

Anyway, this camera is impressive! Did you ask if Sinar is allowing any trade in for older cameras? You will be able to use your lenses!

Asher

 

[Eric Hiss]

I was wondering if anyone would notice the moiré

You both have good eyes. I didn't see this until about the 3rd picture but it is indeed there. I haven't tried Phase's moire tool yet to see if it helps or not.

I believe from my tests that the P20/Rollei 80mm f/2.8 xenotar lens combination is producing a file that is perhaps a bit better in terms of DR than my Leica DMR and a lot better than my Canon 5D. Miles ahead in terms of sharpness than the 5D and equal to the leica/DMR. I may give the Leica some advantage in sharpness depending on what lens is used. But I only have the one lens for my Rollei. Did either of you take a look at the lightroom file? (the one marked LR was converted in Lightroom with some extra adjustments) I was suitably impressed by how much adjustment could be made to the file without it breaking down. I took the picture at the wrong time of day (my lunch hour instead of sunset), but was able to add plenty of fill light to bring up the houses and take down the sky to show the clouds without any trouble at all.

You probably would not have noticed but I did already list the Rollei setup for sale on the buy/sell forum at Luminous-Landscape. So far no takers (probably all waiting for the Hy6?) so I will continue to work with it - perhaps it will win me over. I have yet to shoot it in the studio with a model so that will be a big factor.

 

[Ray West]

Hi Eric,

I had looked at both files. However, I am not sure at what size they should be viewed, so that has to be considered for the final destination, of course. At full screen, the lr version is more contrasty, more sharp, more bright - but for some reason, the overall image is flatter than the other. (the reason is because everything is sharp, and thus it is all 'in your face' - I think it is probably over sharpened for my screen size). If I zoom in, there are a number of sharpened edge artefacts, noticeable around the central grey building, in the lr image. However, this is purely my opinion, and could be easily altered I guess. (both my opinion, and the post processor settings ;-)

Best wishes,

Ray

 

[leonardobarreto.com]

Something interesting happened to me today and is related to MFD. I asked my oldest gallery oner to recommend my work with others since I was ready to do some more work. They did so and one new gallery director calls me to do an installation and some images of b&w photos framed. I was working and since the director was friendly I asked about experiences they have with other photographers.

She said that they had one other person doing digital images but "the files kept getting bad" -- as if the photographer would downgrade his equipment ? I don-t know, -- and the last straw was when an art magazine wanted to publish an image of a represented painters work "but the file was unprintable"/ then the did t know what to do and were even thinking to go back to film (4x5), but they had to scan it ... and that they didn t know anyone that could {do digital at view camera level}, that s when my friend recommended me to them by pure coincidence.

That was yesterday, today, a friend of this director calls me to ask me to shoot his sculpture show November 15th.

The moral of the story is two fold: first of all, what are this other photographers that shoot film are waiting for to jump in to digital. And what happened to that photographer, is he giving them jpgs? or maybe that the gallery is destroying the files? I don t know and don t like to prejudge other peoples work...

The second is the most important for me. Asher knows that one day I took my credit cards with me and went to max_up them to buy a back when I had just arrived in NY and had no clients whatsoever. I was sure at the time, but after some time when things where slow I doubted if my move was the correct one.

The concept is: if you are going to be "a man with a van", you need to buy the van first. The DB is my van, and the other thing is that first impressions are important if we want second impressions.

Work by Marco Maggi /http://www.joseebienvenugallery.com/

 

[Asher Kelman]

The concept is: if you are going to be "a man with a van", you need to buy the van first. The DB is my van, and the other thing is that first impressions are important if we want second impressions.

Work by Marco Maggi /http://www.joseebienvenugallery.com/

That's a perfect saying Leonardo!

and BTW, that framing is excellent. The presentation of art is so important to how we perceive it. Now what is the material in the artwork? It looks metallic and a challenged to photograph!

Asher

 

[Eric Hiss]

sample image

Hi,
Just for fun I thought I would post an image from a set that I am working on with my Rollei/P20 setup. I'm using the 80mm AF lens with a 9mm extension tube fitted. I am very impressed with the sharpness of the lens. The shot was taken at either f/16 or f/22 (unfortunately the Rollei P20 combo doesn't record any camera settings other than iso in the exif) I am using C1 to process the files with sharpening set to 25 and 2 (or very close to default) with noise reduction set as low as possible. I develop at 120%.

The series will be called 'Opportunity'.

Here's a full frame reduced to 1000px

And here's a 100% crop.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Pretty fabulous effect. The last image should be called "Evidence" or "Self"

Asher

 

[Eric Hiss]

Asher,
The last image is just a crop to show the resolution of lens/back combo. If I wanted to get that close, I would need another extension tube, perhaps the 34 or 68mm.
Eric

 

[Asher Kelman]

Still, Eric, it seems orginal to compelling to me! What makes the hands black?

Asher

 

[Eric Hiss]

Still, Eric, it seems orginal to compelling to me! What makes the hands black?

Asher

Heinz 51 IOW special sauce

 

[leonardobarreto.com]

Fantastic image, I like the concept and the way it came out. Can you do this with the Leica? I think that there is a place for MF in the future after all...

 

[Eric Hiss]

updates

Thought I should stop back in here to visit this old thread....

Well I have shot about 4000 frames with the Rollei 6008 / p20 combo and have added several lenses. It's really growing on me.

Is anyone else out there shooting the Rollei with digital back?

Eric

 

[Asher Kelman]

Eric,

What about the movement between the different components. Do you have it so that they fit together well. What is it that you would be looking for if you updated the body?

Asher

 

[Eric Hiss]

???

Asher,
If you were referring to the looseness of the back, I made myself a little aluminum shim that took up the slack and fixed the problem. Did a long while back and actually forgot about it.

As far as going to a different body, I dunno what else I would need. I'm pretty happy with the 6008. You could complain that it is big and heavy but most of it is in the lenses. I find the mirror lock up button convenient but I would have liked a mirror up switch closer to the actual shutter button and I would prefer to have a larger button for both, but these are pretty minor quibbles.

The only reason I would go to a different camera body would be to get a larger back but its been announced that phase will now fit any back for the 6008 through Rolleimetric.
Eric

 

[Asher Kelman]

First Eric, how did you shim the back and not alter the distance for the reflex mirror to get the focus distance to correspond? Next, what is Rolleimetric?

Asher

 

[Eric Hiss]

Asher,
The shim did not go between the back and camera, merely between a spring plate and the hinge - this put more spring force on the latch and keeps the back snug. I don't think this would be too common a problem but my db20p (rollei name for p20) was used and probably who ever had it before either didn't notice or had monkeyed with it. Works fine now - good thing I have a full shop left since I was doing sculpture before photography, I had all the tools needed to make my own shim.

Rolleimetric appears to be a branch of Rollei that handles cameras for surveying and geographic measurements by air.
Eric