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Otus..

Hi, Asher,



Well said.

My father, a precision machinist in his early life and later an executive of a machinery manufacturing firm, once told me:

"Always use the best tools you can afford, and always know how to do the best job possible with whatever tools you have."

Neither skill or facilities trump the other (unless of course one is hopelessly inadequate). The MTF of the lens and the MTF of the sensor are both part of the behavior of the camera (unless one is "dreadful").

It is all well and good to emphasize the role of skill, but we should now let our awareness of that denigrate the value of fine tools. Joshua Bell could make fabulous music with any old fiddle - but he doesn't.

I think he most often uses the Gibson ex Huberman Stradivarius, a fascinating story in its own right. Works for me.​

Now the next question is: Why is so much MF work done MF?

Best regards,

Doug
I would agree on most of the above... (in fact I believe we almost say the same thing in other words).
Yet... as far as the new lens goes and considering its price, I believe there is a real issue with the market it targets, given its price, focal length and the fact that it is manual focus... In other words, I believe its uses are limited because of the above reasons. ...Even if it helps (or brings closer) to "replace" an MF camera with a FF DSLR...
 
Hi, Theodoros,



I was just puling your leg, part of my ongoing revulsion of the use of "FF" to mean "pertaining to a format size of about 36 mm × 24 mm" because for a certain genre of cameras, that is the (full) frame size.

In my 8 x 10 cameras, full frame is (nominally) 8" × 10", and half-frame is 5" x 7". In a Ricoh GR, full frame is about 23.7 mm × 15.7 mm, but there are smaller formats (not full-frame).

By the usual definition of "MF", we could have an MF camera with a format of 36 mm × 48 mm, which for that camera would be FF MF, while half-frame MF (guess that is HF FF) for that camera would be 36 mm × 24 mm.

Best regards,

Doug
LOL... I sensed you "pulling my leg", but format size is a dd-(ee)-(ee)-(ee)-pp (perhaps too deep) conversation with digital, that first demands on some basic rules agreement between photographers for what it is... I believe for the moment, we all refer to formats on the format's film abilities (we say LF for view cameras even if we use MF or less digital light sensitive area on it) although this is obviously wrong... Not to mention, 24x36, 30x45, 33x44 or other image areas that are referred to as MF.... I guess when we say MF (or LF or 35mm) photography, we mean using a camera with such an image light sensitive area capability.
I have to add on the above that I disagree on calling Pentax-645 (it's not even 6x4.5) or Leica-S MF... they are (IMO) "larger imaging area" DSLRs... main reason for this opinion of mine, is the inability of these cameras to serve what I call MF "values"... IMO, MF values are related with modularity and providing user solutions for long term service that cannot depend on short time tech evolutions... as is LF!
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Theodoros,

LOL... I sensed you "pulling my leg", but format size is a dd-(ee)-(ee)-(ee)-pp (perhaps too deep) conversation with digital, that first demands on some basic rules agreement between photographers for what it is... I believe for the moment, we all refer to formats on the format's film abilities (we say LF for view cameras even if we use MF or less digital light sensitive area on it) although this is obviously wrong... Not to mention, 24x36, 30x45, 33x44 or other image areas that are referred to as MF.... I guess when we say MF (or LF or 35mm) photography, we mean using a camera with such an image light sensitive area capability.
I have to add on the above that I disagree on calling Pentax-645 (it's not even 6x4.5) or Leica-S MF... they are (IMO) "larger imaging area" DSLRs... main reason for this opinion of mine, is the inability of these cameras to serve what I call MF "values"... IMO, MF values are related with modularity and providing user solutions for long term service that cannot depend on short time tech evolutions... as is LF!

All well said.

My practice is to describe sensor size by stating - the sensor size.

Best regards,

Doug
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Theodoros,

An important size regime is LtkB (Larger than kleinBild).

Then, perhaps above 4" × 5", we would have Rltkb (Really larger than kleinBild).

Best regards,

Doug
 

fahim mohammed

Well-known member
Folks, this is all very interesting ( those old enough to remember Rowan and Martin's Laugh In can complete the sentence..), but back to Otus.

The lens has been designed for Nikon and Canon 35mm Ff Dslrs ( as at this time ).

I shall restrict myself to 35mm FF.

Most lenses at f/5.6 shall be equally good. The cost goes up exponentially as one tries to squeeze maximum performance ( in all measurements of a lens performance characteristics ) at the apertures of f2 and f1.4 and f0.95.

The cost also is directly proportional to the size of the lens and the quality of construction and the control of quality. I mentioned previously that the Leica summicron 50mm asph costs much more than this lens. And the Leica M cron has a max aperture of only f2!

Tolerances becomes very strict when a product is designed to such specs.

If the claims made by Zeiss are proved accurate, then the price of this lens is in keeping with a precision
And highly corrected lens for 35mm FF Dslrs.

Is the price justified? Each one has to answer that question for himself.

It is what it is.
 
Folks, this is all very interesting ( those old enough to remember Rowan and Martin's Laugh In can complete the sentence..), but back to Otus.

The lens has been designed for Nikon and Canon 35mm Ff Dslrs ( as at this time ).

I shall restrict myself to 35mm FF.

Most lenses at f/5.6 shall be equally good. The cost goes up exponentially as one tries to squeeze maximum performance ( in all measurements of a lens performance characteristics ) at the apertures of f2 and f1.4 and f0.95.

The cost also is directly proportional to the size of the lens and the quality of construction and the control of quality. I mentioned previously that the Leica summicron 50mm asph costs much more than this lens. And the Leica M cron has a max aperture of only f2!

Tolerances becomes very strict when a product is designed to such specs.

If the claims made by Zeiss are proved accurate, then the price of this lens is in keeping with a precision
And highly corrected lens for 35mm FF Dslrs.

Is the price justified? Each one has to answer that question for himself.

It is what it is.
I think Fahim, that this will be much more reasonably priced... and possibly as good, even at full aperture..., we will soon know.... AF too....

http://nikonrumors.com/2013/10/17/n...-4g-lens-additional-coverage.aspx/#more-65330
 
If only they would include an aperture ring with it.... Also..., will manual focusing be well damped for when it's needed? ....also, ...I very much doubt "nano-crystal" flare resistance, I admire Zeiss for that... you can shoot into the sun with my 7 (seven) Zeiss lenses for my Contax 645 and I hear (or experienced) no different with all their lenses for any format... The major thing with Otus, is its price...

I believe there are many that would choose the traditional Zeiss design (even if this would mean less sharpness at wide apertures) for its traditional qualities (colour, colour balance, contrast, flare resistance) which I bet the Otus also shares, ....if that would cause the lens to cost as much as the rest (traditional) of the current Zeiss series for 35mm cameras.
 

Tom dinning

Registrant*
I showed Christine a picture and price of the lens in question.
'You ok with me spending $4000 on a lens?"
"Sure. If you need it"
This sort of answers the question for all concerned, really. If you have the cash and need it, you'll buy it. If it's just 'want' that is your priority, you may still buy it; maybe not. If you missed your wife's birthday present and you bought this, prepare to sleep in the garage. If you're impressed by the numbers that may be a factor. If you just want to tell people you have one to big note yourself, send me the cash. If you want to climb the ladder an shoot beautiful women (even if you need to go up an extra rung) I think that's a bit of overkill. If you spend a heap of cash on gear you really need to get your money's worth. That is to say, as many people as possible need to be impressed.
One wonders if your particular photographs would be improved by sufficient margin to warrant buying yet another lens regardless of its features.
 

Tom dinning

Registrant*
Sorry. I'm back. I know I don't get involved in the technical conversations and I poke a bit of good natured fun at those who do but I have a confession to make.
I used to do that. You, know, look at the new toys, talk technical and show off the alters and greatest. I may have even thought they would make a difference; sharper images, no run-off at the edges, minimum distortion and all that important stuff. I even bought a few things that I could well have spent my money more wisely, like a fine bottle of Cabernet or a night in Tennant Creek. I still peak from time to time; read the Camera House cattle dog, follow the link on a spam email, look longingly into the shop window at Ted's. I get the fascination, truly I do. So why don't I really care any longer? Am I loosing my manhood? Has some part of my brain been destroyed by years of bad whiskey? I now find myself making choices with my equipment that compare to what Christine would choose on a holiday to the Bahamas.
In all seriousness, I wonder if this is a natural progression, like the ideas I expressed in another thread relating to my current feelings about my own photographs and those of others.
It just seems like I'm flooded with contentment, as if I have finally consummated my relationship with Kyle Minogue followed by a good feed of mud cake and ice cream. I'm not worried about it. I'm too content for that. I'm just trying to find someone else who feels the same way.
Please feel free to ignore me as you might. I'm just trying to find someone to talk to. Obviously it won't be Theo.
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
I can understand your decrease of interest about the technical parts of photography. I actually feel very much the same. It just shows less because, being an engineer, I still have an interest in finding out how machines work and how they are designed. But that is not "photographic" interest.

One wonders if your particular photographs would be improved by sufficient margin to warrant buying yet another lens regardless of its features.

I'll even go as far as to state the contrary: for each photographer, the photographs get a little worse with each new piece of equipment, at least in the beginning. It takes time to learn to use a new piece of equipment. Besides, when one buys a new lens/camera/filter/etc..., one tries to buy a ready made solution, instead of finding their own. Necessity being the mother of invention, if one cannot buy a ready made solution, one will have to find a new way of doing what they want.

I believe that this is the core reason why new, poor artists are usually more creative than others. They have to.


Besides, the promise of Zeiss is not that you will take better pictures, it is that you will take pictures that are technically better. That is only interesting if one's business is to produce pictures that are of a high technical level (which makes a large part of the photography business and is a selling point if your business is to reproduce works of art).
 
Sorry. I'm back. I know I don't get involved in the technical conversations and I poke a bit of good natured fun at those who do but I have a confession to make.
I used to do that. You, know, look at the new toys, talk technical and show off the alters and greatest. I may have even thought they would make a difference; sharper images, no run-off at the edges, minimum distortion and all that important stuff. I even bought a few things that I could well have spent my money more wisely, like a fine bottle of Cabernet or a night in Tennant Creek. I still peak from time to time; read the Camera House cattle dog, follow the link on a spam email, look longingly into the shop window at Ted's. I get the fascination, truly I do. So why don't I really care any longer? Am I loosing my manhood? Has some part of my brain been destroyed by years of bad whiskey? I now find myself making choices with my equipment that compare to what Christine would choose on a holiday to the Bahamas.
In all seriousness, I wonder if this is a natural progression, like the ideas I expressed in another thread relating to my current feelings about my own photographs and those of others.
It just seems like I'm flooded with contentment, as if I have finally consummated my relationship with Kyle Minogue followed by a good feed of mud cake and ice cream. I'm not worried about it. I'm too content for that. I'm just trying to find someone else who feels the same way.
Please feel free to ignore me as you might. I'm just trying to find someone to talk to. Obviously it won't be Theo.
Tom, Fahim created a thread to talk about a photographic product and a new design series of lenses which (baring the historical and highly respected name of Zeiss) may be a reference product for the future... He did so, in the gear part of the forum where the subject belongs... Your (emotional) thoughts are welcome and respected, but... they have nothing to do with the Zeiss Otus series of lenses... Hence, if one was to be involved in that different conversation, he could do that in parallel to the subject or in another more appropriate thread for emotional conversations (or thoughts) on the priorities one might have on how he treats his income...

I may agree, or partly agree, or disagree, or just find interest on your thoughts... Never the less, I feel that bringing them up in between another subject that Fahim wants to discuss, is not fare... Maybe it wouldn't be fair either if you would open such a discussion on a new tread and one would start discussing the Otus there... no?

P.S. The above refers to your last post only... which (by the way) I find it to contradict the first one.
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
Tom, Fahim created a thread to talk about a photographic product and a new design series of lenses which (baring the historical and highly respected name of Zeiss) may be a reference product for the future... He did so, in the gear part of the forum where the subject belongs... Your (emotional) thoughts are welcome and respected, but... they have nothing to do with the Zeiss Otus series of lenses... Hence, if one was to be involved in that different conversation, he could do that in parallel to the subject or in another more appropriate thread for emotional conversations (or thoughts) on the priorities one might have on how he treats his income...

I may agree, or partly agree, or disagree, or just find interest on your thoughts... Never the less, I feel that bringing them up in between another subject that Fahim wants to discuss, is not fare... Maybe it wouldn't be fair either if you would open such a discussion on a new tread and one would start discussing the Otus there... no?

P.S. The above refers to your last post only... which (by the way) I find it to contradict the first one.

It seems to me that Tom is directly answer the question you asked in message #22:
So the real question here is "by how much and under what circumstances the investment would be worhtwhile.... (hence my answer and the jokes that followed)... I believe that this should be the real discussion here.
 
It seems to me that Tom is directly answer the question you asked in message #22:
So the real question here is "by how much and under what circumstances the investment would be worhtwhile.... (hence my answer and the jokes that followed)... I believe that this should be the real discussion here.
No Jerome..., he doesn't! I compare the expense with different photographic solutions which are required to perform the same task... Tom compares selection of photographic gear with bottles of Cabernet wine and night walks in Tennant park... The common point may be the high cost required, but I can't see how bottles of fine wine and beautiful night walks would provide an alternative to taking photographs... Obviously Tom's perspective is originated in what kind of "pleasure" he prefers to enjoy life better (which I respect but it's a different subject)... while my point of view (when comparing things) is to seek more economical alternatives for the same task to be executed equally well... Hence, I would compare bottles of wines with other bottles of wine, walks (and the consecutive mind experiences) with other walks, but also..., lenses, ...with other lenses! Mind you, that despite the fact that Tom feels that he can't have a conversation with me, I like Tom... (I like the fact that he is concentrated in finding an alternative to the standard "meaning of life" and to communicate that...), hence my suggestion to open a thread for that...
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
On this same topic, does anyone know where I put my Canon PowerShot SX110 camera? We don't use it much anymore since we got the SX150, but I would still like to know where it is, and I can't find it anywhere.

Thanks.

Best regards,

Doug
 

Cem_Usakligil

Well-known member
On this same topic, does anyone know where I put my Canon PowerShot SX110 camera? We don't use it much anymore since we got the SX150, but I would still like to know where it is, and I can't find it anywhere.

Thanks.

Best regards,

Doug
It is probably where you've last put it. Unless you have gremlins and feed them after midnight.
 
Out of all the forums I've ever participated, I think this one is on a class of its own, simply because it's the only one that requires (and demands) a position from "real people with real identity", thus avoiding trolling... Obviously, this is a photographic forum for people that recognise photography to be an art ...and art is closely related to philosophy by definition.

The Greatest (or the most acceptable to be the greatest) philosopher of all, happens to be the same man that has put the fundamentals for what we now call the "logic science"... Aristoteles (the name of the man) thought that philosophy can't have a base unless it is developed on basic fundamentals about logic and that it is the only way for a conversation to develop...

Irony is a method developed by another great philosopher (Socrates) and is the method where one exhibits the false of logic in a conversation (as this false breaks the Aristoteles fundamentals) by using the one's that has broken these fundamentals rules against him... thus proving him a "smart ass" than a humorous one...

Never the less "humour" can only be effective if it respects the logic fundamental rules!
(Sorry if you find the above too serious... it is!)
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Theodoros,

Hi Doug... did you find the gremlins? (...and your SX110 with them?)
No, sadly neither.

However, Carla did have a piece of bacon spontaneously disintegrate while cooking 8 pieces in a special fixture in our microwave oven this morning.

Thanks.

Best regards,

Doug
 
Hi, Theodoros,


No, sadly neither.

However, Carla did have a piece of bacon spontaneously disintegrate while cooking 8 pieces in a special fixture in our microwave oven this morning.

Thanks.

Best regards,

Doug
LOL... I guess it's not a very effective microwave either... no more than any similar logic "humour" anyway...
 
Hi folks,

Now that the first production copies are being released to the marketplace, here are the first impressions from a generally reliable source, LensRentals.com.

Looks like a wonderful lens, with sharp corner rendering even when used wide open, but at a price.

Cheers,
Bart
 

fahim mohammed

Well-known member
There are some images posted on a competitor forum using the Otus and the Nikon 800E.

Wonderful. The oof areas are as beautifully equal to any..including the Noctilus. Barring some serious issues, the price sees to be justified. The Noctilus is 10K.

Quality has a price. Is is worth it. Each one has to make up their own minds.
 

Ben Rubinstein

pro member
Been seeing a lot of pics from it around. Seeing sharpness, contrast, colour, 3D pop, etc. What I'm still waiting to see is character. Just seems to be to perfect to have any. Not really my kind of thing. I'd prefer less perfection and more drawing style myself...
 
Been seeing a lot of pics from it around. Seeing sharpness, contrast, colour, 3D pop, etc. What I'm still waiting to see is character. Just seems to be to perfect to have any. Not really my kind of thing. I'd prefer less perfection and more drawing style myself...

Hi Ben,

'Character' can be added in post-processing by crippling the image quality that this lens produces. ;)

There are some pretty effective tools around for that purpose, like Topaz Labs Lens Effects plug-in, where one can even create creamy bokeh after the fact, with a choice of aperture blades and shapes, and allows to create or use a depthmap to add DOF blur.

Cheers,
Bart
 
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