Painterly and Abstract Images: What Might They Be?

[Ben Lifson]

Mr Webster & "Ben's definition"

Dear Mr Webster

You have not been reading my definition of abstraction. I myself have no definition of abstraction and certainly no opinion as to what is or is not abstract.

What you have been reading when I wrote that when the means of making a picture (line, light, shape, color, etc>0 refer only to themselves and neither denote nor connote anything in the world we all share is abstract I am merely conveying to you the standard commonplace precise meaning of the word within the discourse of artists and of theorists, critics, historians, collectors and curators of art.

Please read Meyer Schapiro's two essays on abstract art in Volume 4, "Modern Art", of his 4 or 5 volume edition of his collected writings, published by George Braziller.

Schapiro is universally recognized as one of the greatest art historians and writers on art of the 20th Century. Some would say The Greatest.

Don't worry about his being too academic. He was highly intelligent. Therefore, his writing conveys his intelligence. It is intelligent writing. But it is also clear, plain and accessible. Not academic writing at all.

Thrilling writing, actually. His essay on Cezanne's still lifes, with its 5-page interlude on the nature of still life pictures temselves, always thrills and inspires me so much that I leave it unread, grab my camera and go out to see if I can't make a still life worthy of the name.

yrr

 

[Angela Weil]

Ken, I especially like the aerial image of the lakefront. You really captured the quiet atmosphere of a winter day here. The absence of any noticeable color reinforces that impression.
The thrushes ring a note, because I have an image that is almost identical, taken from my window (in Heidelberg, not in Chicago) and made for the same reason: The seasonally recurring view signifies a particular mood of winter.
Stretch Limo and Ice both do not speak to me as strongly.
As an aside: I don't want to go into the discussion of the nature of abstractions, because I don't 'tick' that way. I react emotionally to images regardless of how they might be classified.

Angela

 

[John_Nevill]

Can this be considered Abstract?

EOS 20D & EF100mm, f4.5 - 1/400sec - ISO200

 

[Charles L Webster]

Dear Mr Webster

You have not been reading my definition of abstraction. I myself have no definition of abstraction and certainly no opinion as to what is or is not abstract.

-snip-

When I referred to "Ben's definition" I clearly meant "the definition advocated by Ben in his previous posts." I would not attribute such a definition to you intentionally.

As for pursuing the subject through further reading, I'd rather spend my time shooting, because I believe as you do that one becomes a better photographer by shooting every day.

 

[Ken Tanaka]

The Wikipedia definition of "Abstract".

An accompanying example by Kazmir Malevich. Although this is a painting I actually have several photos very similar to this, taken accidentally with my lens cap attached.

I actually don't mean to seem like an urchin with a complete lack of aesthetic erudition; the truth is actually quite the contrary. But categorical debates (modernist, post-modernist, pictorial, abstract, constructivist, et.al.) are somewhat pointless outside of the academic world. The true primary joy of all art forms exists, as Charles suggested, in their creation. That's what distinguishes photography from nearly all other media; nearly anyone can give it a go.

I'll leave categorization to Ben, as he seems to have a good grasp on such matters. Personally, I'm enjoying the stream of images that folks are beginning to submit under this thread's banner. Let's keep it flowing!

p.s. Thanks very much, Angela. If it's not being too forward <g> I'd love to see your "thrushes" if they're handy.

 

[Asher Kelman]

The true primary joy of all art forms exists, as Charles suggested, in their creation. That's what distinguishes photography from nearly all other media; nearly anyone can give it a go.

Yes, Ken, everyone can "have a go" but like poetry and song there's so much more than the democratic access to having a voice.

The true primary joy of all art forms exists, as Charles suggested, in their creation.

My definition of this would be a sense of struggle, labor leading to a climax and I'd express it thus:

The true primary joy of art is an itterative creative experience which culminates in feeling emotions, thoughts and consequences and being satisfied that one has embedded in the physical form all that you intend and more to be discovered in the future.

Asher

 

[Charles L Webster]

Can this be considered Abstract?

-image snipped-

EOS 20D & EF100mm, f4.5 - 1/400sec - ISO200

According to the definitions cited by Ben, no because there are identifiable elements. According to common non-art world usage of the word, I would say "Yes, definitely" because it removes the image from it's relationship with the original object.

Nice picture by the way, I really like the quality of the color in the background, blurred but still intense.

 

[Ben Lifson]

Mr Nevile Mr Webster & Abstract

No, the picture is not abstract. The forms are representative of leaves, etc.

As for

"common non-art world usage of the word, " abstractiion or of any word, why bother? We're talking about pictures here and there are precise words for their various elements.

Which would you rather your auto-mechanic say to the parts store when ordering something for your car?

"You know, that thingma-bubby that does something for getting the fuel to the whatsis where it gets burned?"

(which could be a fuel pump, you know, or a fuel filter)

Or "A Fuel Injector AX-09B13"

Or (if it's an older car) "A Cabeurabor, V8-1260." No, not V-6. V8. Right. Rebuilt? No, don't you have a new one in stock? A new one then for sure."

Knowing the terms is only one step. Knowing them and making a lot of pictures is only another step. A third and very important step is looking at a lot of abstract pictures (paintings, drawings, prints: there are almost no abstract photograps) and figuring out how they work.

Aaron Siskind did this with his friend Franz Kline's abstract paintings and even though Siskind made almost no abstract photographs he certainly did see that the success of Kine's pictured depended considerably on surface -- on a sense of raised surface here, of depressed surface there -- and he, Siskind, certainly did learn how to give the illusion of the same kinds of surfaces in his photographs.

But to do this he had to respect the physical nature of the bits of paper, the scored concrete, the grain in the wood, the peeling paint, that gave this roughj marvelous surface to the stretches of walls he photographed.

Because peeling paint and torm paper etc. remained themselves in Siskind's pictures the pictures themselves can't ever be called abstract.

Better person to study is Minor White.

Asher, teach me how to import pictures into these windows.


I'll show you some of the very few abstract photographs that existed before Ellen Carey made the great break through.

yyrs

ben

www.belifson.com

(Andre Keresz' distorted "unclothed people" aren't abstract. Pablo Picasso's Cubist portraits aren't abstract. Not in art temrs.

Why even bother to make pictures if one wants to remain ignorant of the terms by which pictures are discussed and taught? Light grey to text added to indicate this can be interpreted as derogatory and is not in line with OPF policy. Asher

 

[Sue Butler]

Minor White

In reply to Ben's comment on Minor White.......

Yes, he was amazing ...... how he saw things.
I mean, if you didn't know from the caption where and what this was, would you actually know??
http://www.masters-of-photography.com/W/white/white_capitol_reef.html

I really, really like his and Aaron Siskund's work.

cheers,
Sue

 

[Charles L Webster]

-major snippage-

Why even bother to make pictures if one wants to remain ignorant of the terms by which pictures are discussed and taught?

Because I don't care to talk about pictures, I care to make them and look at them.

Ben, I do not dispute the necessity for having precise terminology to discuss/describe things. I am a technical writer by trade and without precision of meaning and terminology my work would be worthless. But, I do not teach art, nor do I claim to be an art critic, so I have little need of such precision of words to describe my, or others, art. I do not dispute your need for such terms, I only dispute my need for them.

Let's agree that I am, and shall remain, ignorant of the correct vocabulary to precisely describe art. I am similarly ignorant of the correct vocabulary to describe geology, architecture, and many other fields of endeavor.

I do not feel any need to describe my pictures in words, that would be like "dancing about architecture." If my pictures evoke an emotion in my viewer, I am satisfied, and Asher's "arc of intent" has been completed. All else is after the fact. Words do not figure into my seeing of a picture, my capture of that image, or my satisfaction with that image.

[Text added after some consideration] I doubt that Ansel Adams, Minor White, Andre Kertez, or most other "great" photographers could have spoken about their work using any precise terminology either.

I apologize if I offended you in some manner by using the incorrect terminology when describing my picture. I ask only that you look at my picture and experience whatever emotion it stimulates.

Thus, I end my participation in this discussion

 

[Ken Tanaka]

Why even bother to make pictures if one wants to remain ignorant of the terms by which pictures are discussed and taught?

Ben: I actually am not "ignorant of the terms". I have had the great fortune to get a wonderful education in art as a young man. Today as a not-so-young man who loves photography's practice and history I have the good fortune to have access to a few of the largest and deepest photography collections in the world and, more importantly, to a few of the finest art and photographic scholars and curators in the world. Not one of these folks, not one, would ever utter such a condescending jet of vitriol as that. I think you've let your slip show.

I, too, am finished here.

 

[Asher Kelman]

I'm going to do something I don't do, and that is close this thread, as least for now to allow us to learn some lessons.

I had moved the essence of the thread dealing with the actual painting and what was left was to be just the discussion of terminology and styles. I'll revisit this 5th of March, all being well!

Asher

 

[Ben Lifson]

Apologies to All

for my recent bellicose postings. A few hours after the last one of Thursday I called my upstairs neighbor who came down and rushed me to the hospital, emergency room: high fever etc etc. Pneumonia, 2 days' stay. Home now, awake some of the time, I think back to those postings and if it weren't for the antibiotics lined up at my sink and the extreme drowsiness I'd be asking "What got into me?" Whatever it was in addition to the pneumonia made my neighbor think I was going mad when he first walked in the door and all the time he was with me in the emergency room, while I was answering intake questions, he kept saying "Calm down. Play their game. Tell it to them the way they want to know. Stop this fighting with them." So I guess those contentious postings were like warm up exercises to something which, at 102.9 degrees farenheit, pushed me past the boundary of politness and into the land of belligerence. I am truly sorry for my harshness here and for any hurt feelings it might have caused.

yrs

ben

 

[nicolas claris]

Bonjour Ben

even if i did not participate to the debate at OPF you're talking about I felt a little concerned about the tone used…

Even, obviously, still in bad health situation, you found the courage and the strenth to go to your computer and post here your apologies.

This is the talent of the great men (another "Grand Homme" Asher ;-).

This is largely fair enough for me as far as I'm concerned and I sincerely hope the best to you and that you'll recover soon a very and durable good health.

I do hope that all other members, specially the ones involved in that debate will feel the same as me and won't blame you.

BTW, you may thank your neighbor too !

Take care

 

[Asher Kelman]

Hi Ben,

Welcome back from Hades! sometimes we miss Dante's sign on the gates as we descend the steps into the levels of the damned!

I myself still enjoyed every word you wrote apart from the several nasty phrases that caused grief. We learn such a lot from you even when you're temperature is high! Now I will cancel my prescription for sedatives for myself, Charles and Ken!

We value your participation in this very unique personal forum.

This is a nurturing place where we self-balance. Each of us is on a high-wire way above the crowd and we have to make sure that the guy up there does not fall!

Asher

 

[Charles L Webster]

Thanks for the apology Ben, I was a bit concerned. I have had similar episodes in which high fever made me go "right round the bend" for no apparent reason. It isn't pleasant to look back on the resulting chaos.

I too look forward to reading your posts and learning from you.

I hope you are feeling better soon.

Best wishes,

 

[Ray West]

With Asher's permission, this thread is being reopened.

Hi Ben,

I knew you had been ill, you mentioned it a few days ago, sorry you got worse, glad you're getting better ;-)

To post images, you have to link to them from another hosting site. You can use the little icon at the top of the reply form, that looks like an envelope with a couple of mountains (I guess its an icon for an image) then paste your url into the pop-up text box. I would be interested in a picture of an

"A Fuel Injector AX-09B13"

.... or even what you think it may look like. ;-)

Best wishes,

Ray

 

[Asher Kelman]

Here's my question,

When someone uses a painterly style with indistinct borders or abstract with little claimed or no apparent reference to real objects where do think the creativity is occuring? Is it in the head then expressed or is the work on the canvas, the film enlarger of the computer screen, then discovered, appreciated and owned bt the artist? Where does it occur?

Does a person think in terms of painterly or abstract, or rather experiment with forms that appear when they spatter inks or throw sand on to glue and see if they like what sticks?

IOW where is the work done? Internally and expressed or externally and then selected as good or not?

Asher

 

[Ray West]

I would imagine different folk would do it differently. if working with paint, then generally you start from a blank canvas and work towards the final image. There is no need to paint a detailed tree, then convert it to blue and red splodges - just go straight to the splodges.

If you are using photography, then I guess you start with a photo of a tree, and remove detail, to get to the splodges. What puzzles me is how you tell an abstract rose is not an abstract lettuce, or is it given, say a numeric title, so that no clue of its origins are suggested? How far can you go with this, before it gets silly? Is this where the million monkeys could excel?

Best wishes,

Ray

 

[Ken Tanaka]

That sounds like quite a brush with eternity that you've experienced, Ben. I am glad to read that you were able to get treatment promptly. Thank goodness for kind neighbors.

No really hard feelings here. Just please take care of yourself. Recovery from pneumonia can take longer than you might think.

 

[Sue Butler]

Painterly and Abstract

This subject intrigues me.

The definition 'abstract art' from my Concise Dictionary of Art and Artists is as follows:
"Art that does not depict recognizable scenes or objects but instead is made up of forms and colours that exist for their own expressive sake."

I couldn't find anything under 'painterly'. So I'm not sure how that is expressed.
Also what Ben means by 'plastic'?
Perhaps Ben could help us out here.

Here is an essay by Ben on Abstraction.
http://www.rawworkflow.com/making_pictures/index.html
He explains how something can be abstract and yet can also represent something of reality. He shows pictures which explain what he means.

I'm still learning all these things and having pictures that help to explain, I find extremely good.

Just my thoughts.

regards,
Sue

 

[Asher Kelman]

Sue, thanks for the reference.

What I'm wondering is whether we conceive of the image in our mind and then make it or work with the tools we have (camera, photoshop or paints and then build it with no reference to a preconceived mental image, rather we are just exploring and enjoying each blob of paint, each indistinct golden reflection in the water that comes from the RAW developement and use of blur filters.

I hope I have framed my question. I want to understand are we creating the object first in the mind ?or just simply claiming after the fact, that what we do in our playing and experimenting is art?

Asher

 

[Charles L Webster]

Sue, thanks for the reference.

-snip-

I hope I have framed my question. I want to understand are we creating the object first in the mind ?or just simply claiming after the fact, that what we do in our playing and experimenting is art?

Asher

I can say that I saw the final image in my mind as soon as I saw the reflection on the water. I then spent considerable time trying to find the correct place, focal length, etc. to capture what I had previously envisioned.

But that's because I look specifically for those type of images. Many of my pictures deal with reflections, especially off water, and I am attuned to looking for and recognizing those "picture opportunities"

Unfortunately, I don't have that kind of vision wrt other subjects.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Thanks Charles what you are telling me of your experience is very helpful. So do you think you train yourself in selecting such scenes, IOW, you become skilled in finding scenes that show that pattern. So we are sort of hunting? Do you think that maybe, you first saw such a reflection and enjoyed it so you are going after the same thrill you had before and this feeds on itself?

I'm learning a lot by this simple questionioning and I trust you telling me what you really think is happening. Any other input will be valued!

Asher

 

[Sue Butler]

Creating Images

Well Asher,

I guess I'm just starting out with this thinking. I want to be able to create a picture not have it come randomly. I know what I want when I compose a picture but using shadows, parts of forms or creating forms to be an abstract picture, well that's what I'm learning.
I guess it's experiment and experiment (really practising and practising) until you know what you can make the camera do (ie. which lens, which iso, which angle to shoot from and so on) and then you would be creating the picture from the start.
That's my aim anyway. To know right from the start what I want and more or less how to get there.
Of course, many, many times mistakes have made good pictures and it's all a learning process.

regards,
Sue

PS. Randomly taking pictures can work too. Sometimes I get mesmerized by light and shade and get carried away taking pictures. I have an idea of what they will look like but don't know for sure.
I spent an hour photographing shapes on rocks on the weekend. I composed the picture and I knew what I wanted but it's not until you see them bigger that you actually know if they look okay. On an LCD screen is not big enough to know for sure.

It's good to talk here but I feel such a novice!!
Learning all the time and for the rest of my life!!

 

[Marian Howell]

i'm like <chas> in many ways, in that, perhaps because i live at the water's edge, i explore reflections alot. i see the reflection, a specific image/shot/vision comes to mind, and i then work to achieve it. of course, i also can plan the image in advance knowing the time of year/day/weather/light and be there waiting for the opportunity. sometimes i am just reacting to the light, maybe because i didn't know it would be there, and have only a brief time to explore it. usually when that happens though, my explorations with the camera are akin to a preliminary study, and result in a more planned attempt later.
i might agree with asher though on another level, in that there must be some essential emotional connection between me and the reflections so i do hunt specificly for these and become more skilled in the process.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Hi Marian,

I think Charles has a way that is on the right track. Nicolas Claris is working on that track to with his personal work that I have had the privilege to see.

Decide on one idea, one subject or set of subjects or theme. Look then at how you can find its essence and concentrate on that. It might be anything you choose. Even things with shapes those are clear like a teapot can become transformed although one must do many creative alterations with light, shading and hiding.

I wouldn't aim for "painterly" or "abstract”, which IMHO is a trap! Rather there is a conversation between your inner sense of wonder and purpose and then the extent to which this vision of yours can be implemented. That is where you have to work; art genre and taxonomy be dammed. It would be great to have you post your work as you experiment. There's always some degree of struggle, at least for most of us, to match what one wants to achieve and what one has the knowledge experience and technique, let alone opportunity to deliver.

So make your subject simple, economical, near your home, easy access. This will allow the hundreds or thousands of images you might need of one subject to understand what you can and can't do and how to get some match between internal vision and external opportunity to fulfill it. All the time, your internal vision will change as you get new technical ability and you will be surprised more and more by what you can create.

Allow some peaceful time for yourself, like when the light in the morning start to wake you Linger and imagine your art. You'll find that at this time the barrier between you and where these things get discussed in the brain, get opened and your will have revelations of how it might be.

The Progression: Now if you had a wirtten goal at he onset of this project, I swear you will be amazed at the changes. You will find parental connections to your starting idea, but as you go on, there's a recruitment of ideas, possibilities, nuances by your internal directives to make the art. At the same time the external facility, has acquired new skills and tools as well as a pile of physical prints or images on the monitor to use as measuring instruments, like rulers. So one has the internal indefinite and the external definite to play off each other. Both change as you proceed! This, I think, is how we hunt, seduce, capture, masquerade, deceive and build and make art.

Asher

 

[Charles L Webster]

Hi Marian,

I think Charles has a way that is on the right track. Nicolas Claris is working on that track to with his personal work that I have had the privilege to see.

Decide on one idea, one subject or set of subjects or theme. Look then at how you can find its essence and concentrate on that. It might be anything you choose. Even things with shapes those are clear like a teapot can become transformed although one must do many creative alterations with light, shading and hiding.

I wouldn't aim for "painterly" or "abstract”, which IMHO is a trap! Rather there is a conversation between your inner sense of wonder and purpose and then the extent to which this vision of yours can be implemented. That is where you have to work; art genre and taxonomy be dammed. It would be great to have you post your work as you experiment. There's always some degree of struggle, at least for most of us, to match what one wants to achieve and what one has the knowledge experience and technique, let alone opportunity to deliver.

So make your subject simple, economical, near your home, easy access. This will allow the hundreds or thousands of images you might need of one subject to understand what you can and can't do and how to get some match between internal vision and external opportunity to fulfill it. All the time, your internal vision will change as you get new technical ability and you will be surprised more and more by what you can create.

Allow some peaceful time for yourself, like when the light in the morning start to wake you Linger and imagine your art. You'll find that at this time the barrier between you and where these things get discussed in the brain, get opened and your will have revelations of how it might be.

The Progression: Now if you had a wirtten goal at he onset of this project, I swear you will be amazed at the changes. You will find parental connections to your starting idea, but as you go on, there's a recruitment of ideas, possibilities, nuances by your internal directives to make the art. At the same time the external facility, has acquired new skills and tools as well as a pile of physical prints or images on the monitor to use as measuring instruments, like rulers. So one has the internal indefinite and the external definite to play off each other. Both change as you proceed! This, I think, is how we hunt, seduce, capture, masquerade, deceive and build and make art.

Asher

My process is not so formal as Asher suggests in "The Progression" but I recognized a year or two ago that reflections in general have a power to mold and alter common items into something else. A "magic" if you will. Since then, I have trained myself to be constantly on the lookout for opportunities for such images. I look at every body of water that crosses my path, every shiny highrise building, every automobile bumper. When I find something that's reflective in the right way, I look to see what's around to be reflected. I visualize the picture and then try to execute that picture.

Sometimes it just isn't going to happen, sometimes I can see right away that the light isn't right, or the reflected thing isn't really going to make a good picture.

And sometimes a picture literally falls in my lap. In this case, I was looking for a classic reflected landscape when a moth fell into the lake. The fluttering of the dying moth created concentric ripples that reflected the clouds in a good way. I took the shot, thankful for a "freebie."

 

[Ben Lifson]

Abstract v. Concrete

In the following, I don't mean to be flip.
Driving home the other day, I thought that some examples from familiar verse can pinpoint the difference between that which is abstract, i.e. communicates and refers to only itself, and that which is concrete, i.e. refers to or represents something solid, familiar, recognizable in the world.

Here's a good example from a familiar Christmas carol.

Deck the halls with boughs of holly [concrete]
Fa la la la la, la la, la la [abstract]
"Tis the season to be jolly [concrete]
Fa la la la la, la la, la la [abstract]
Don we now our gay apparellel [concrete]
Fa la la, la la la, la la la [abstract]
Join the ancient Yule-tide carol [concrete]
Fal la la la la, la la, la la. [abstract]

Almost abstract is the children's counting-out rhyme

One potato, two potato, three potato, four,
Five potato, six potato, seven potato, MORE!

Almost abstract because it does'nt really describe or explain or communicate anything.
Almost abstract because "potato" does indeed denote something.

Then there's the cowboy song, with the abstract parts in italics

Yippee ki yi yo get along little dogies
It's your misfortune and none of my own
Yippee ki yi yo get along little dogies
You know that Wyoming will soon be your home.

All scat singing is abstract except when the singer interpolates lines or phrases from well known songs, as did Betty Roche in a classic 1940s or 50s scat improvisation to Take the A Train with Duke Ellington's orchestra. Again, abstract in italics

Sha baba doop booba dood do ah,
I ain't mad at you pretty baby
Don't be mad at me
Ba dooya dooya dooya dooya doobee do dee
I've got a train waiting for me
I'm waiting for the A Train.

When I was a teenager a popular singing group, The Four Freshmen, had a hit song called Sh'Boom: which goes back and forth between the abstract and the concrete

Sh'boom sh'boom
Ya da da da da da Ya da da da da
Sh'boom sh'boom,
Ya da da da da da da,
Life would be a dream,
Boom Sh'boom
If you would take me to Paradise up above
Boom Sh'boom
If you would tell me I'm the only one that you love
Life would be a dream Sweet Heart
Hey lolly ding dong
A ding-a Ling-a Lay
Boom sh'boom Dai-Yo,
A boob a boob a day...

Picasso denied the possibility of an abstract painting. "Every picture starts from something," he said.

Fernand Leger said, "Every artist dreams of making purely abstract pictures but when he gets there he finds that it's an untenable position.'

Happy Trails to You

ben

www.benlifson.com

 

[Ray West]

Hi Ben,

I guess the abstract parts of the songs you mention, are 'in tune'. Is not then all orchestral music, for example, abstract?

In the painting situation, is it abstract if the form is not identifiable, how about the colours?

I explained earlier on how to post images, when you asked, can you show something? I guess there are various levels of abstraction, or is it not that finely defined?

Best wishes,

Ray