Photography and Art in OPF

[Cem_Usakligil]

EDIT: This new thread has originated from this sticky thread:
http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8513

Every now and then, we reopen the discussion of what is art in photography when a (new) member pops the seemingly innocent question: "is my picture a piece of art?". We have spent an enormous amount of time (and sweat and tears) discussing the possible answers to this question in the past. Therefore it makes sense for anybody who is wondering about this question to read first what has already been discussed.

Here is a collection of links to the most interesting threads on the topic of art in photography (or vice versa).

• Accepted Definition of Art
• Common Properties of the best Fine Art Photographs
• Let's start with definitions
• Photography Art that Monkeys Could Make?
• what IS "art" in photography all about?
• digital fine art photography
• What makes us photographers?
• Sweat Equity and Skill in Photography as Art?
• photography as art abstraction

And as an added bonus, also interesting to read:

• B&W RGB Digital: a realized Adams dream or a fix-all.
• "I Can't" -- A Photographer's Phrase From Hell!
• The Web Gallery of Art
• Arc of communication

This list is far from complete, it is possible that I may have overlooked certain threads. Please let me know if you think that the list must be extended.

Have fun with the reading.


EDIT: This thread is not for finding out what individual members think about their photography: whether it is art or not. Instead, this thread is meant as a linking pin (a collection of links) to various threads where actual discussions (have) take place. Having said that, please feel free to provide an answer if you have one. Or provide a definition if you want to. It is always interesting to read what people's take is on this. However, please also note that it is not the intention to get into bilateral discussions and/or polemics in this thread so we'll be moderating posts if there is need to. Thanks for your understanding .

 

[Alain Briot]

I am an artist and my intent is to create art photographic art

Creating art makes me happy.

There's more images by myself in the medium format thread.

 

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, Cem,

My photography is absolutely art. And the result is art.

Generally mediocre art.

 

[Doug Kerr]

There are of course many definitions of art, as will no doubt be worked to death in this thread.

There are at least two widely different meanings. One is in the sense of "the art of the deal" (apologies to The Donald), meaning a particular skill or craft.

As to the other, I find this about as good a definition as any (taken from the Wikipedia article on art):

Art is the process or product of deliberately arranging elements in a way that appeals to the senses or emotions.

Best regards,

Doug

 

[Cem_Usakligil]

Hi Doug, Alain,

I am afraid I wasn't clear enough what I meant with this thread. It wasn't an invitation for answers from our members but it was solely created for referring any new poster who pops the infamous question to the related threads. Sorry about the confusion .

EDIT: The thread has now been copied into this one, please feel free to discuss as you wish.

 

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, Cem,

Hi Doug, Alain,

I am afraid I wasn't clear enough what I meant with this thread. It wasn't an invitation for answers from our members but it was solely created for referring any new poster who pops the infamous question to the related threads. Sorry about the confusion .

Sorry - wasn't paying enough attention to the premise of your note.

Best regards,

Doug

 

[Rachel Foster]

Still, Cem, I'm enjoying reading people's succinct,direct answers to whether or not they themselves feel they create art. I'd like to see more.

 

[Alain Briot]

I find this about as good a definition as any (taken from the Wikipedia article on art):

Art is the process or product of deliberately arranging elements in a way that appeals to the senses or emotions.

Another one is that art is anything you want it to be. Not a quote, a thought of mine, but paraphrased from how many artists describe art. It points to the freedom inherent in the creation -- and indirectly in the interpretation -- of any work of art.

 

[Asher Kelman]

What Kinds OF Photography Subjects We Like and what is "Art" in OPF?

Another one is that art is anything you want it to be. Not a quote, a thought of mine, but paraphrased from how many artists describe art. It points to the freedom inherent in the creation -- and indirectly in the interpretation -- of any work of art.

Alain,

I had not wanted Cem's summary of threads to get diverted, LOL, but we can sort this out later.

I have no time for "Art is for anything you want it to be!", then murder is a perfect candidate for art and so is garbage! Snuff movies are art in that sense and I reject that!

Yes, "found art" can get to have powerful intellectual and emotional value so, in theory, could random photography or software fiddling with filters curves and so forth.

To define art is tough because it's uses over the centuries has covered different purposes, functions and relationships to value of craft, concepts of beauty, association rulers religeons and various, "movements' especially the rebelious Dadaist, Cubist, impressionist and pop-art. In a lot of these works art serves a purpose. However, that's not needed. So it's no surprise that "Photography as Art" is just as hard to define. I'd like to make things a little simpler.

In your mind and presentations, class your photography to one of three broad classes given below and we won't bump into each others delusions!

• Fun, Memories/Mementos/Snaps: A photograph for fun and memory of every day life. The test is does it work to capture that moment and feeling to be valued by the stakeholders, ie the family, lovers, event sponsor etc.?
  
  
• Professional Vertical Markets: We love photographs by professionals. They help us understand the needs of the industry and usually these have great technical, compositional and esthetic value. There's a unique market with it's own fashion and expectations which the photographer meets with the appropriate skills, techniques, gear, workflow and routine. The object is to earn a living by delivering material that the client will buy. Here we're interested in just enjoying the photographs and in addition everything that helps that professional go from getting the skills, to clients, technique, workfows, exhibiting and delivery. This is not art necessarily but could be recognized as such.
  
  
• Art: Photography with an emotional or thoughtful commanding energy from our minds. We create to externalize a personal idea or experience. We make the most impressive image that moves each one of us, alone, personally. The artist himself/herself has to value and/ cherish their photograph. With our better pictures we'll re-invoken and experience even more richly, with more satisfaction our original driving ideas in that work. We may even have feelings errupt nor intentionally embedded in our picture. To mr, that's art at work! When that happens and we have a drive to return to that image, it's now born as "our art". Whether or not anyone else appreciates our work does not alter it's status as our sincere art. Our best work might have no following right now and our rejects might become popular! That work might be collect in museums. Still, just for the sake of discussion in OPF, our art is not defined by that success. (If you do routinely sell your work, then you are a professional and you may not even be moved by what you deliver. No criticism but kudos for being a success. What matters then is that you get paid well!
  
  I just want us to put a special fence around sincerely created impressive art that reinvokes and generates thoughts and feelings at your direction with your own fingerprints on it that you and perhaps others will treasure. Making that work as such, is where we can perhaps help one another through browsing each others galleries and commenting on images there and those posted in OPF.
  
  Perhaps we'll present it to others as art. Perhaps we'll sell it, or not. Such photography, for the purpose of OPF, we'll call art. We ask that the background thinking be explained where the picture does not speak that for itself.

We have discussed what is art elsewhere and Cem has provided these links above in post #1! Please read these resources before repeating what's already there. Don't present pictures as "art" that don't thrill you unless you are asking for ideas on how one could have done better. The latter is the most worthwhile activity here.

 

[Cem_Usakligil]

Originally posted by Doug Kerr, got accidentally lost due to a moderation error

The message below by Doug_Kerr has been accidentally deleted during moderation.

Originally Posted by Doug_Kerr

Hi, Asher,

Originally Posted by Asher Kelman
Don't present pictures as "art" that don't thrill you unless you are asking for ideas on how one could have done better.

So, can I present a picture that doesn't thrill me if I certify it is not art but just somehow happened without human intervention?
I think the atmosphere here is getting pretty full of pretension. I assume the art world has a term which is its analog to "psychobabble", and if I knew it, I would invoke it.
Here's a site that will get your feet back on the ground about art:
http://drswiney.org/calquier/museum.html

Originally Posted by Asher Kelman
In your mind and presentations, class your photography to one of three broad classes given below and we won't bump into each others delusions!
Fun, Memories/Mementos/Snaps:
Professional Vertical Markets:
Art:

It's scary to learn that professional photography isn't art. (I assume this applies to still photography; there are a lot of people that think that professional motion picture photography is art, including a well-known academy.)

Best regards,

Doug

 

[Alain Briot]

"there are a lot of people that think that professional motion picture photography is art, including a well-known academy. Doug"

Doug,

You make a good point -- I agree. In France Cinema (motion pictures) is called "Le Septieme Art" (The 7th Art), after the 6 classical arts (painting, sculpture, architecture, music, literature, dance and theater).

 

[Asher Kelman]

Doug,

I have not covered what art "is", only the type of pictures we want to enjoy and how presenting them in one of three contexts might help us guide feedback so we learn from each other. These are

• fun,
• doing pro work
• on making expressions of one's mind, the latter using one's best capabilities.

Just for discussion here, we’d call that personal work, (each photograph as a special creative effort), "art". However we are not defining art in general in this thread! You, yourself, might address defining art for us if you wish but look at Cem's references here first and then work from there. Your essays are the most useful. I'm sure you could add something valuable. Although your wit is often quick, and appreciated, your quips don't always come across with the same insight as the essays I've come to use an authoratative resource for technical matters.

"Art" as used for here is restricted to a class of (generally, but nor exclusively), personal work where we are most keen to invest our energy helping one another. To get an idea of what I might mean, look at Cem's landscape, here.

Don't present pictures as "art" that don't thrill you unless you are asking for ideas on how one could have done better.

This, of course, applies to work in which people want to represent their personal artistic expression. There are two principal questions I see.

• "Does my work fully express, for me, the potential experience I had hoped to be discovered in my photograph."
  
• "Does my work impress you too and do you have feedback for me on how it moved you or what might make it more effective?"

So, can I present a picture that doesn't thrill me if I certify it is not art but just somehow happened without human intervention?

You can do any such thing and even create a national authority to do your certifying with an holographic Sticker and an embossing stamp, LOL!

In your mind and presentations, class your photography to one of three broad classes given below and we won't bump into each others delusions!

• Fun, Memories/Mementos/Snaps:
  
• Professional Vertical Markets:
• Art:

It's scary to learn that professional photography isn't art.

Being “artistic” or being accepted by the photographer or client as “art” is no absolute necessity in the requirements of most clients in professional photography.

Best regards,

Asher

 

[Ken Tanaka]

With due respect to Cem, Asher, and the good intentions that prompted this thread, I don't think it will be a useful or informative fixture.

This is a photography venue, not an art venue. Frankly, photography is a large enough subject without introducing the fog of answerless "is it art?" questions. No offense to OPF members, but my sense is that very few camera owners have any meaningful grounding in art history, trends, or the vocabulary to conduct meaningful art discussions. I suspect that most folks here are of the "I don' know nuthin' 'bout art but I know what I like!" ilk which isn't going to get prospective debates very far.

Look, we're going to get the occasional "Is My Picture Art" threads with, or without, this thread. I see this thread as little more than a Petrie dish for countless pointless arguments and hard feelings. My vote is to close it before my prediction comes true.

Let's stick to photography.

 

[Rachel Foster]

Ken, I understand your point... but discussions like these help me figure out what I need to address on my own photos.

 

[Cem_Usakligil]

With due respect to Cem, Asher, and the good intentions that prompted this thread, I don't think it will be a useful or informative fixture.
...
Look, we're going to get the occasional "Is My Picture Art" threads with, or without, this thread. I see this thread as little more than a Petrie dish for countless pointless arguments and hard feelings. My vote is to close it before my prediction comes true.
.

Hi Ken,

If you have followed how this thread came to existence you'll realize that it was not my original intention at all to start this thread. On the contrary, I just wanted to create a sticky thread which collects links to the existing discussions so that we could just point to that sticky and get it done and over with when the art discussion reared its head again. But since there seems to be a need to (re)discuss this issue, the only think I could do was to provide a thread for that discussion to take place. In Asher's words, it's a matter of framing our discussions and providing frameworks for our community. I hope you'll understand. As usual, there are no obligations.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Ken,

Yes, we don't need to define or argue about art definitions since we have referenced plenty of resources and we'll just point people to that sticky in the future. We don't want to have Groundhog day here ever again!

Still, what is valuable that comes out of this discussion of the annoying question, "Is this art?" is clearer idea or how we might better consider pics:

• fun snaps,
• related to earning a living or
• related to making pictures that we'll especially value and treasure beyond keepsakes.

The latter we expect will have the energy of ideas and feelings beyond the snapshot of a loved one or a vacation picture of a famous site.

I feel that identifying these different classes of our work will help direct our posting and energies better.

Asher

 

[Ken Tanaka]

Cem, I understand aggregation desires. But the title of the thread prompts actions other than look-ups.

Asher, actually your remarks reinforce my thesis.

Thank you for reading and considering my points. I'll be a get-alonger and not argue further.

 

[Cem_Usakligil]

Cem, I understand aggregation desires. But the title of the thread prompts actions other than look-ups...

Yes, the original title of the original thread was badly chosen. I have changed it to "Art or not? A central repository of links to art related discussions in OPF" and closed the thread. The title of this one was not changed since I did not see the need to. But I shall do so right now. By lack of a better judgement, I have now called it "Photography and Art in OPF". As such it does not prompt for an action but I am sure this will not be a real hindrance to those who wish to discuss further.