Photos and explanations

[Doug Kerr]

Periodically arising in this forum is the question, found in various forms, all variations on "Should a picture be able to stand on its own, without any explanation?"

This is a little bit like asking if sexual intimacy has value without accompanying love (and maybe vice-versa).

Every photo has value on its own. There may well be beauty of form or color in an "ultra closeup" photo of the edge of the latch on the battery door of a small camera. But accompanied by a discussion of what is it, it becomes a different work of art, more valuable to some, more boring to others.

This photo:

Jack Lindsay, Manual telephone switchboard, Vancouver, B.C., 1947​

is rather nice by itself. It shows two pretty young ladies (a sobering thought is that, if they are still alive, they would today be in their 90s), apparently twins, working at a large manual telephone switchboard. We might marvel that these sisters had been assigned to adjacent positions on this large board, but hey - this is a "publicity" photo. And it was very clover of the photographer to place them at a "bend" in the switchboard (apparently needed by the architecture of the switchboard room) to allow a very rich composition.

On the other hand, we might mention, perhaps in a technical article, that this is an beautiful example of what is called a "partial multiple A board". (I won't explain the significance of that here.) This is manifest from the arrangement of the jacks.

Then I might go even further to say that the picture shows clearly (but see below) the "line busy test", a maneuver in which the operator, holding the plug of a switchboard cord in a downward-pointing attitude, momentarily touches the tip of the plug to the sleeve of a line jack to determine whether that line is busy (the line appears at multiple positions, and there might be a connection to it at another position). (The tilt of the plug is so that it will not inadvertently be inserted prematurely into the jack during the busy test; the use of a downward tilt is so that if the line is found idle, and the operator will then put the plug into the jack, leveling the plug to prepare it for entry into the jack will put slack into the cord so it will not fight that stage of the maneuver.)

But then, I might go on to point out that the operator farthest for us seems at first to be making the busy test on a jack of the trunk multiple (this has circuits going to other central offices), where the "line busy test" is not used (each trunk jack has a lamp that indicates if the trunk is busy). But closer examination shows that she is touching the tip of the plug not to the sleeve of a jack at all, but rather to the adjacent edge of the wooden "stile strip" that separates panels of jacks.

We then note the her sister, nearer us, is making a "line busy test", with fine technique, on an answering jack (to which the line buy test is also not applicable).

Now, would these various layers of discussion "enhance" the photo itself or detract from it? And do they add to what is overall presented by way of this photo, to the reader. Well, I hope so.

In any case, this brief essay gave me an excuse to show a photo of pretty ladies and telephone equipment.

Best regards,

Doug

 

[Asher Kelman]

Doug,

Even if I was one of those intellectually challenged, narrow-minded snobs who insist that all "Art must speak for itself!", I'd never miss an opportunity to be entertained by your knowledge of so much technical necessities of what is now obsolescence, that I'd put aside my cup of tea and come down from my tall yellow workman's ladder and get lost in your discourse!

Thanks for bringing to us this choice combo of a vintage picture and an insight to the industrialization of communication between humans!

Asher

 

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, Asher,

Even if I was one of those intellectually challenged, narrow-minded snobs who insist that "Art must speak for itself!", I'd never miss an opportunity to be entertained by your knowledge of so much technical necessities of what is now obsolescence, that I'd put aside my cup of tea and come down from my tall yellow workman's ladder and get lost in your discourse!

Thanks for bringing to us this choice combo of a vintage picture and an insight to the industrialization of communication between humans!

Thank you so much.

Best regards,

Doug

 

[Cem_Usakligil]

...Even if I was one of those intellectually challenged, narrow-minded snobs who insist that "Art must speak for itself!", ....

Finally I now know who I am; an intellectually challenged, narrow minded snob! Thanks for the clarity Asher.

 

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, Cem,

Finally I now know who I am; an intellectually challenged, narrow minded snob!

Hardly!

Actually, a problem (not too widespread here, thankfully) is intellectually capable, narrow-minded snobs.

I find very distasteful intellectually-capable people who, as part of their stage persona, carry an anti-intellectual flag.

Of course in the U.S., we have an entire political party devoted to that model.

Ah, you have been saved by the breakfast "bell".

Best regards,

Doug

 

[Asher Kelman]

Finally I now know who I am; an intellectually challenged, narrow minded snob! Thanks for the clarity Asher.

That's an eruption! How do you come to apply all this to yourself?

I didn't realize you followed my posts so avidly these days, Cem! In fact much of what I post is ignored!

You posted before my qualification appeared! Still I did not allege that everyone who considered that, "all art can speak for itself", is intelectually challenged! Some might be so well educated that they can read most anything put before them! Those who regularly visit major museums, art galleries, art fairs, talk to curators and gallery owners and artists can most often do pretty well on their own. Even then, knowing the previous work and/or references of an artist makes the experience richer.

Note I didn't criticize well educated experienced artists! That's where you should place yourself, of course! I have always asserted that some art such as a mother nursing her child, a child feeding pigeons or stream of waddling ducklings following their mother, or a flower, generally need no introduction.

However, images depending on underlying mythology, references to history, social rights or symbology unique to one culture most often benefit from an introduction. Seeing a sculpure of a particular head by Picasso, without knowing the related Matisse sculpture, (to which it's an homage), provides an incomplete experience.

Asher

 

[Cem_Usakligil]

I was just pulling your leg Asher, don't worry. I should have added a smiley somewhere.

 

[Antonio Correia]

Thank you Doug for posting this photograph.
My mother worked in a Government institution where a man was working with one of these equipments which I can clearly remember.
It was a very small one. A dark red box.
I even remember the feeling of touching those knobs, what I have done some times in my early teens.

 

[Asher Kelman]

I was just pulling your leg Asher, don't worry. I should have added a smiley somewhere.

Thanks! Still that aliquot of energy could be invested in feedback to pictures that catch your eye!

Think about the tiny buzzing bumble bee. Each visit to a flower carries only micrograms of nectar and pollen. But the net result is abundant food on the planet and in addition, the sweetest honey!

?


?


?​

Asher

 

[Cem_Usakligil]

Thanks! Still that aliquot of energy could be invested in feedback to pictures that catch your eye!

Think about the tiny buzzing bumble bee. Each visit to a flower carries only micrograms of nectar and pollen. But the net result is abundant food on the planet and in addition, the sweetest honey!

?


?


?​

Asher

Asher I always give feedback to pictures that catch my eye. That is unfortunately not the case for many others who manage to ignore my posts which sometimes include up to 20 pictures some of which should eventually catch somebody's eye. So I don't think that this comment of yours should be addressed to me.

 

[Robert Watcher]

Your post is a wonderful example of how we can't dictate what is right or wrong when it comes to art/photography.

For some viewers, the written details enhance the visual experience. For others (like me) they distract and take away from the pleasure of viewing such an image. If the image were taken for and included in a catalogue, manual or historical piece, it would have, much power and credibility. Or sometimes the description along with a selection of supporting images, complete a story. On its own though, I want to have the option of just taking it in for the visual stimulation or maybe for the challenge of exploring, or maybe for the mystery of never knowing exactly what it is. Sometimes I want to know and more than not I don't need to know. The beauty is that others think totally opposite to that. As long as we aren't forcing a precept on someone - everyone gets along fine.

 

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, Antonio,

Thank you Doug for posting this photograph.
My mother worked in a Government institution where a man was working with one of these equipments which I can clearly remember.
It was a very small one. A dark red box.
I even remember the feeling of touching those knobs, what I have done some times in my early teens.

Yes, these were wondrous. It is common to think of manual telephone switching as "primitive", but in fact it was incredibly sophisticated.

I try and give some insight into that in my article, "Manual Telephone Switching". It of course is based on North American practice, but the technological concepts were similar world-wide, so far as I know.

That article is indexed here:

http://dougkerr.net/Pumpkin/index.htm#ManualTelephone

Just click on the title to go to the article itself.

Best regards,

Doug

 

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, Robert,

Your post is a wonderful example of how we can't dictate what is right or wrong when it comes to art/photography.

For some viewers, the written details enhance the visual experience. For others (like me) they distract and take away from the pleasure of viewing such an image. If the image were taken for and included in a catalogue, manual or historical piece, it would have, much power and credibility. Or sometimes the description along with a selection of supporting images, complete a story. On its own though, I want to have the option of just taking it in for the visual stimulation or maybe for the challenge of exploring, or maybe for the mystery of never knowing exactly what it is. Sometimes I want to know and more than not I don't need to know. The beauty is that others think totally opposite to that. As long as we aren't forcing a precept on someone - everyone gets along fine.

Thank you for that outlook, which I well understand, and appreciate.

Best regards,

Doug

 

[Asher Kelman]

Asher I always give feedback to pictures that catch my eye. That is unfortunately not the case for many others who manage to ignore my posts which sometimes include up to 20 pictures some of which should eventually catch somebody's eye. So I don't think that this comment of yours should be addressed to me.

Well, I hope that those 20 didn't get missed by yours truly. I am an avid fan of your work, as you know!

Asher

 

[Tom Robbins]

Wordless photos, posted to photography forums such as OPF, have always rubbed me the wrong way.

It's safe to assume that OPF members are interested in photography, or we wouldn't be here. It's also probably safe to assume that photos are posted here because their creators wish to share with like-minded folk. Now for one more assumption: such like-minded folk will likely be very interested in details regarding the image than other, more typical, viewers. Details may include technical concerns, location, background story, intentions, and on and on.

Photos displayed in a gallery or book are usually presented as a collection where individual images support a theme. So, little information is offered, or needed.

Photos displayed in a photography forum usually lack context, so any explanation is frequently welcome and very helpful.

As an example, this a photo taken a year and a half ago. It's an image that needs explanation, which I provided to the family and friends I shared it with at the time. Offered here without explanation, it's just an odd puzzle.

Untitled​

 

[Tom dinning]

Finally I now know who I am; an intellectually challenged, narrow minded snob! Thanks for the clarity Asher.

I knew that.

(No sarcasm intended).

Xxx

 

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, Tom,

(No sarcasm intended).

Did you mean that sarcastically?

Best regards,

Doug

 

[Tom dinning]

With every photo I take or view my head is filled with words. They spill out like bees from a smoked hive. I have the urge and urgency to say something. On occasions I refrain. That doesn't mean the words haven't existed. I'm sure I'm not alone. I might even suggest those who's minds are blank, are somewhat intellectually disengages.
Before you get your knickers in a twist, I would clarify 'intellectual'. Able to speak, type or write. Any language will do. Grammatical errors accepted, the thoughts of a four year old or above.
A photo cannot stand alone. If it has no effect on the viewer or photographer that cannot be formulated as words, it is a pointless exercise. Words enable us to think with clarity. Photographs stimulate the thinking. They are bound together as thread in yarn.

Because words and pictures can be displayed separately is a mechanical phenomenon, one that the photographer might chose for his own reasons. We can be satisfied with that. The viewer might also choose to keep his thoughts to himself. We can respect that as well.

 

[Cem_Usakligil]

Well to me a photo which is presented as art (I am not talking about other forms of art) should speak for itself. But it doesn't mean that there cannot be a background story which goes with it. It is not a binary choice.

...Because words and pictures can be displayed separately is a mechanical phenomenon, one that the photographer might chose for his own reasons. We can be satisfied with that. The viewer might also choose to keep his thoughts to himself. We can respect that as well.

Exactly. I may, as the photographer, choose to keep the background story to myself. I may also, as the viewer, choose my thoughts to myself.

We should be aware that photos which are taken for documentary or journalistic purposes do indeed need the context of a background story.

 

[Tom dinning]

Hi, Tom,



Did you mean that sarcastically?

Best regards,

Doug

Who me? Sarcastic? Not in your life.

Sarcasm is an art form, not unlike the photo. In the case of sarcasm it's words without pictures: they can stand on their own.
Just as with pictures, sarcasm can be taken in many ways and meant to affect the recipient in many ways.
My intent, as with the picture, is to create a sense of wanting within the recipient. To know more. That can be, in the case of the picture, to be accompanied by words (an explanation) or formulated into words by the recipient ( an interpretation).
The simile might end there if it were not for another possibility: that of more than one meaning intended by the photographer: one of explanation for some and an interpretation of the explanation by the more astute.

Sarcasm does this beautifully. My intent, as with my comment to Cem, is to deride him. On the face of it, that seems to have worked. But it Cem seething with fury? No. Because he knows what I am and he can read between the lines. You, on the other hand, Doug, are unsure and put your doubts into words.
Others here might see my comment as insulting and offensive and leave it at that.

The truth be known, I point my sarcasm at my friends and enemies with equal perpetuity. Only you and I know if I mean it, and even you are in doubt.

That's the art.
As it is with the photograph.

Xxx

 

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, Tom,

Who me? Sarcastic? Not in your life.

Sarcasm is an art form, not unlike the photo. In the case of sarcasm it's words without pictures: they can stand on their own.
Just as with pictures, sarcasm can be taken in many ways and meant to affect the recipient in many ways.
My intent, as with the picture, is to create a sense of wanting within the recipient. To know more. That can be, in the case of the picture, to be accompanied by words (an explanation) or formulated into words by the recipient ( an interpretation).
The simile might end there if it were not for another possibility: that of more than one meaning intended by the photographer: one of explanation for some and an interpretation of the explanation by the more astute.

Sarcasm does this beautifully. My intent, as with my comment to Cem, is to deride him. On the face of it, that seems to have worked. But it Cem seething with fury? No. Because he knows what I am and he can read between the lines. You, on the other hand, Doug, are unsure and put your doubts into words.
Others here might see my comment as insulting and offensive and leave it at that.

The truth be known, I point my sarcasm at my friends and enemies with equal perpetuity. Only you and I know if I mean it, and even you are in doubt.

That's the art.
As it is with the photograph.

Nice essay.

But I was actually making a joke when I said, "Did you mean that sarcastically?

Best regards,

Doug

 

[Asher Kelman]

Sarcasm, like epithets, for example, "yid" or N*****", are also very sharp daggers or else, within a testricted and relevant community, terms of great affection and value -vitriolic or else a pat on the back from a pal!

Art, however, when in a public gallery space open to diversity, is often given valuable support by text on walls introducing work with complex motifs, hidden fabric or intent, to aid in our experience. There is also a body of work presented, where one picture, for example, buttresses its neighbors. Often there are pamphlets, books, bios and "Artist's Statements" too.

Here, in an open forum, some art does stand on its own and needs no words in presentation. They hit the most basic sentiments and feelings.

However, much of our photography here is the result of some special thought, planning and reference to matters not actually in the new picture! So, in these cases, It's both generous helpful and appreciated when you add whatever background you wish to serve, as, after all, you are, in a way, welcoming visitors to a small corner of your home for a good time. So snacks and drinks - even a comfortable chair - are a good things to consider for a guest.

Asher

 

[Cem_Usakligil]

Well, I hope that those 20 didn't get missed by yours truly. I am an avid fan of your work, as you know!

Asher

Thanks Asher. Look here. 43 views and not a single reaction so far.

 

[Tom dinning]

Hi, Tom,



Nice essay.

But I was actually making a joke when I said, "Did you mean that sarcastically?

Best regards,

Doug

I know you well enough now to know that's what you meant. See what I mean?

 

[Tom dinning]

Sarcasm, like epithets, for example, "yid" or N*****", are also very sharp daggers or else, within a testricted and relevant community, terms of great affection and value -vitriolic or else a pat on the back from a pal!

Art, however, when in a public gallery space open to diversity, is often given valuable support by text on walls introducing work with complex motifs, hidden fabric or intent, to aid in our experience. There is also a body of work presented, where one picture, for example, buttresses its neighbors. Often there are pamphlets, books, bios and "Artist's Statements" too.

Here, in an open forum, some art does stand on its own and needs no words in presentation. They hit the most basic sentiments and feelings.

However, much of our photography here is the result of some special thought, planning and reference to matters not actually in the new picture! So, in these cases, It's both generous helpful and appreciated when you add whatever background you wish to serve, as, after all, you are, in a way, welcoming visitors to a small corner of your home for a good time. So snacks and drinks - even a comfortable chair - are a good things to consider for a guest.

Asher

The singular piece of art is already accompanied by a more than adequate description including any catalogue reference, previous publicity, the name of the building in which it it hung, the accompanying work, the knowledge of the viewer, price, recognition of content, even size, the frame type and how particular the security guard is when small children enter the room. All of this assists the viewer to assess the art and add to their perception.
If you didn't know the Mona Lisa do you really consider it in the same way if it was hanging in my loo?

 

[Jerome Marot]

As an example, this a photo taken a year and a half ago. It's an image that needs explanation, which I provided to the family and friends I shared it with at the time. Offered here without explanation, it's just an odd puzzle.

Untitled​

Indeed it is. I wonder why the front structure collapsed. Is the rear structure a grain elevator?

 

[Jerome Marot]

Asher I always give feedback to pictures that catch my eye. That is unfortunately not the case for many others who manage to ignore my posts which sometimes include up to 20 pictures some of which should eventually catch somebody's eye. So I don't think that this comment of yours should be addressed to me.

Generally speaking, I give (and receive!) less comments for series of pictures than for individual pictures, so you should not think that, in 20 pictures, you get 20 times more chance to receive comments. And if I comment less on series, it does not mean that I like them less. Maybe I should comment more, or leave a quick note from which the photographer would infer that I took the time to actively watch the pictures.

 

[Cem_Usakligil]

Generally speaking, I give (and receive!) less comments for series of pictures than for individual pictures, so you should not think that, in 20 pictures, you get 20 times more chance to receive comments. And if I comment less on series, it does not mean that I like them less. Maybe I should comment more, or leave a quick note from which the photographer would infer that I took the time to actively watch the pictures.

I understand and I agree.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Generally speaking, I give (and receive!) less comments for series of pictures than for individual pictures, so you should not think that, in 20 pictures, you get 20 times more chance to receive comments. And if I comment less on series, it does not mean that I like them less. Maybe I should comment more, or leave a quick note from which the photographer would infer that I took the time to actively watch the pictures.

Jerome,

These are great points and if no one responds to a new post with fifteen great pictures it's frankly a disaster for all of us!

I am not sure whether or not you can observe who is online at any moment? I see folk online for hours, sitting on their own thread, apparently waiting for some action! I always wonder why we don't instead give that wanted feedback and acknowledgement to others who have invested an equal amount of time in their own presentations. We desperately need folk here to be adventurous.

Even just a few words allows one to feel that at least someone knows I am alive and still making pictures! I have no criticism of you, Jerone, but for many here, Remember that nothing can be harvested without going out of your code house to the fields and actually planting seeds!

So we can and should each do much more!

Asher

 

[Robert Watcher]

Jerome,

These are great points and if no one responds to a new post with fifteen great pictures it's frankly a disaster for all of us!

I am not sure whether or not you can observe who is online at any moment? I see folk online for hours, sitting on their own thread, apparently waiting for some action! I always wonder why we don't instead give that wanted feedback and acknowledgement to others who have invested an equal amount of time in their own presentations. We desperately need folk here to be adventurous.

Even just a few words allows one to feel that at least someone knows I am alive and still making pictures! I have no criticism of you, Jerone, but for many here, Remember that nothing can be harvested without going out of your code house to the fields and actually planting seeds!

So we can and should each do much more!

Asher

I wouldn't get hung up too much on the statistics of your forum software Asher. Because someone shows up on the "online list" doesn't mean they are viewing their thread or even viewing the forum. Lots of people leave a browser on all night or maybe all day at work, and if it's unattended and OPF forum is open, it still has a viewing session recorded for that time. Forum owners used to use that trick all the time to make it look like they were there available - when in fact they were no where to be found. Their name would be on the online viewers list 'searching forum' for 24 hours a day, day on end. Members soon catch on. As well there are seldom instantanious live updates on stats. Most refresh every several minutes or even every 15 or 30 minutes. So a viewer isn't necessarily looking at a specific thread or even the forum, just because it is showing on the stats.

As to acknowledgement - there will be a few who like posting detailed replies - and there are some people who always say 'nice picture' 'thanks for posting' out of kindness - but for many they aren't that type. Doesn't mean people aren't looking and sometimes enjoying. For the concerns that have been brought up from a few here that require some type of feedback - i think the 'Like' and 'Thanks' button forum plugins allow viewers to do that more readily without feeling they need to either give a phoney 'nice picture' response or dig in deep with a thoughtful response when they don't feel like it or feel the need.

I know --- that goes against the dialogue and debate that some forum members would prefer on this forum. But at least there may be 2 or 3 or 10 likes that make those posters know that people viewed their shots. A like buttom actually goes very good with series of images because individual replies can be liked and posters can easily 'thank' without making another post that often disrupts the flow of the images - especially when everyone seems intent on including the original content with their reply. Now if a poster requires worded feedback and acknowledgement to make posting worthwhile, then even that won't matter much.