Rachel's River, a struggle to photograph there. An edited experimental blog!

[Asher Kelman]

Asher, regarding the leaf photo, I think I've worked out what my response to it is. I think it's pretty, to me it's charming, but it's not art. Does that make sense?

But it is in focus...I think!

Rachel,

Just after the war as a toddler, I remember a riddle from the Romanian peasants, hungry for feeding their faimlies. "What's the recipé for an omelette?"

The answer?

"First, steal an egg!"

Here you are hungry to make something great. However, we are just in the basic survival stage:

we can skip choosing a subject,

we can skip focus

we cannt skip the light!

So the key here is to just get exposure right! That is stealing the egg!

Asher

 

[Rachel Foster]

I agree mechanics and basics are priority number one. And I think focus is primary. But I think part of learning how to focus is learning what to point the camera at -- so one is focusing on the right things. I've learned that the object of focus affects what aperture, shutter speed and iso are needed. In studying spider webs, I've found manual focus is a must, for example.

Tell me if I'm wrong, but it seems that keeping in mind the object of focus, and the why it's chosen as object of focus, is important. Granted, it's not the first or even second priority. The Gestalt psychologists said the problem has to be considered in terms of its entirety. That doesn't mean one tries to learn everything at once; on the contrary, manageable bites must be selected. But they have to be kept in context and their relationship to the whole considered.

Now to the question of light: I was drawn to the lighting in this photo. Is it lacking somehow?

Side note: I've also learned that the experienced, knowledgeable photographer and the novice speak different languages but think they are the same. I wonder if I'm completely misunderstanding again?

 

[Asher Kelman]

The cchecken and egg order of the photographers subject and lighting let's put aside. I say that one starts with lighting as a dogma since without that there is nothing coming into the camera.

The idea, the first instance is to know how the controls work to get the correct exposure. So one must master the basic knoweldge that a given amount of light sufficient to get and image with a range of shading requires a suitable combination of

1. Film/Sensor sensitivity
2. size of the shutter aperture
3. time shutter will be open to allow light to reach film/sensor

One needs to be totally familiar with decreasing one factor and making up for it with a change in another to make up for the particular change.

So find a reference on that and let us know you know it.

My reference to light was because in the picture of the several leaves against a dark background of poorly lit branches and leaves and some sky, there is insufficient light distributed in the image to allow exploration. Forget apart art, for the moment. I really don't care that the subject happens to be interesting. The issue is that here we have not yet gotten the light we want.

Wehen you shoot with your studio lights you can distribute the flux so the exposure of the subject is sufficient for a recording an image but also interesting.

When doing your river shots, you still have the requiremnt to have sufficent and interesting light, no matter where you choose to point your camera.

At this time when you took the picture of the light rust colored leaves, there were no light beams coming throught the trees playing on the entire scene and then highlighting the leaves you like.

So while you have some light, it's not sufficient really and not particularly interesting.

Now one can solve this somewhat by taking zones in the picture and lightening then with different patterns as if it was done right. Yes, it can be done, sourt of and might even be nice. However it wont be great. Why not?

We all have had our senses educated by great shots of in woods with light filtered through trees as the sun rises with mist still hugging the ground. We have seen the long shadows outlining streaks of light drawing over everyting, awaking the stark beauty of that morning.

So we cannot just pop into the woods any time we want, point at a bright leaf and expect to get anything special. How can we, there's no light anywhere else!

Now if you have to take pictures at the time, then you can be very sacriligious and do what macro photographers do when they don't fear heaven! They use flash!!

Those perfect pictures of spider webs and ants herding aphids are generally the products of careful stage managing, hopefully without crushing native plants or other damage.

I'd not start the hard way by you, yourself trying to light the woods properly. Rather choose a well lit subject or come back when it is well lit!

For my best photography I don't have a camera, just scout and come up with a plan and then come back with the right lens at the right time.

So in your choice area, by your river, when I say, "The subject is not important and it doesnt have to be in focus!", I really mean it. First we hunt the light (unless you shoot macro and bring your own). Then we hunt for the real subject and we work out how the subject and light will be best recorded.

Since you do like the leaf, I'd try to go there early in the morning and study what happens. Bring your family and a picnic perhaps and just see where the light goes and look at your watch and make notes.

The nice thing is that you don't need to bribe or pay for a model! No lights to lug around. But one does have to shop for light!

Then you'll find your subject!

Asher

 

[Asher Kelman]

The "chicken versus the egg" order of the photographers subject and lighting let's put aside!

I say that "One starts with lighting!" as a dogma since without that there is nothing coming into the camera.

One step back first.

The idea, the first instance is to know how the controls work to get the correct exposure. So one must master the basic knoweldge that a given amount of light sufficient to get and image with a range of shading requires a suitable combination of

1. Film/Sensor sensitivity
2. size of the shutter aperture
3. time shutter will be open to allow light to reach film/sensor

One needs to be totally familiar with decreasing one factor and making up for it with a change in another to make up for the particular change.

So find a reference on that and let us know you know it. Don't bother to go further without mastering this as you will have no way of controlling what you do.

So when you find the best reference for this. Add that in your next post for others who'll follow your footsteps and read this as a requirement, LOL

We start with lighting was because in your picture, just several leaves are kit against a dark uninteresting background. There's insufficient light distributed in the image to allow exploration. Let's put aside ideas of art, for the moment. I really don't care that the subject happens to have potential. The issue is that here we have not yet gotten the light we want!

When you shoot indoors with your studio lights you can distribute the the exposure over and around your subject to make it both sufficient for the particular camera setting (of ISO, shutter aperture and shutter speed) and make it, unique, interesting and compelling.

When doing your river shots, you still have the same requirements, no matter where you choose to point your camera! It's far easier when you do it right since you don't have to mess around with gear!

But what did you do when you took that picture? You saw the bright rust colored leaves! Then you took the picture! However, there were no long light beams coming throught the trees playing on the entire scene and then highlighting the leaves you like.

So while you have some light, it's not the light.

Now one can solve this somewhat in an editing program like photoshop. Take zones in the picture and lightening then with different patterns as if it was done right. Yes, it can be done, sort of and might even be nice. However it wont be great. Why not?

We are too educated and spoiled rotten, that's what we are up against. I say "Good enough!" Isn't!"

We all have had our senses educated by great shots of in woods with light filtered through trees as the sun rises, mist still hugging the ground. Long shadows wrap streaks of light drawing over everyting, awaking beauty.

So we cannot just pop into the woods any time we want, point at a bright leaf and expect to get anything special. How can we if there's no light anywhere else?

Even if the leaves are lit, angled light creates dimension and reveal texture which wil make your leaves real.

Now if you must take pictures at the time, then you can be very sacriligious and do what macro photographers do when they don't fear heaven! They use flash!!

Those perfect pictures of spider webs and ants herding aphids are generally the products of careful stage managing, hopefully without crushing native plants or other damage.

I'd not start the hard way, trying to light the woods properly. Rather choose a well lit subject or come back when it is well lit!

For my ambitious photography I don't have a camera, just scout and come up with a plan and then come back with the right lens at the right time.

So in your choice area, by your river, when I say, "The subject is not important and it doesn't have to be in focus!", I really mean it. First we hunt the light (unless you shoot macro and bring your own). Then we hunt for the real subject and we work out how the subject and light will be best recorded.

Since you do like the leaf, I'd try to go there early in the morning and study what happens. Bring your family and a picnic perhaps and just see where the light goes and look at your watch and make notes.

The nice thing is that you don't need to bribe or pay for a model! No lights to lug around. But one does have to shop for light!

Then you'll find your subject! Even then, the light will inform you how and from which position and time you will trip the shuttter.

Asher

 

[Asher Kelman]

The "chicken versus the egg" order of the photographers subject and lighting let's put aside!

I say that "One starts with lighting!" as a dogma since without that there is nothing coming into the camera.

One step back first.

First know backwards how the controls work to get the correct exposure.Master the basic knoweldge that light sufficient to get an image with a range of shading requires a particular combination of

1. Film/Sensor sensitivity
   
2. size of the shutter aperture
   
3. time shutter will be open to allow light to reach film/sensor

Know how to decrease or increase one factor and make up for it with a change in another to end up with the same effective exposure of your film or generation of a good image file!

So you yourself search out a reference on that and let us know you know it. Don't bother to go further without mastering this as you will have no way of controlling what you do. Add that reference in your next post for others who'll follow!

Now back to your picture of the leaves against a whole dark ill-defined scene in the woods! We start with lighting was because in your picture, that's the key issue! Several uniformly lit leaves are seen against a dark uninteresting background. There's insufficient light distributed in the image to allow exploration. Further, the light on the leaves is in itself, not interesting. Let's put aside ideas of art, for the moment. I really don't care that the subject happens to have potential. The issue is that here we have not yet gotten the light we want!

When you shoot indoors with your studio lights you can distribute the the exposure over and around your subject to make it both sufficient for the particular camera setting (of ISO, shutter aperture and shutter speed) and make it, unique, interesting and compelling.

When doing your river shots, you still have the same requirements, no matter where you choose to point your camera! It's far easier when you do it right!

But what did you do when you took that picture? You saw the bright rust-colored leaves! Then you took the picture! However, there were no long light beams coming throught the trees playing on the entire scene and then highlighting the leaves you like.

So while you have some light, it's not the light!

Now one can solve this somewhat in an editing program like photoshop. Take zones in the picture and lighten with different patterns as if it was done right at the time of capture. Yes, it can be done, sort of and might even be "nice". However, even if you are great at photoshop, it wont be great. Why not? We all have had our senses educated by great shots of in woods with light filtered through trees as the sun rises, mist still hugging the ground. Long shadows wrap streaks of light, drawing over everyting, awaking beauty! So we cannot just "pop into the woods" any time we want, point at a bright leaf and expect to get anything special! How can we if there's no light?

Even if the leaves are lit, angled light creates dimension and reveals texture which will make your leaves real.

Now if you must take pictures at the time, then you can be very sacriligious and do what macro photographers do when they don't fear heaven! They use flash!!

Those perfect pictures of spider webs and ants herding aphids are generally the products of careful stage managing, hopefully without crushing native plants or other damage.

I'd not start the hard way, trying to light the woods properly. Rather choose a well lit subject or come back when it is well lit!

For my ambitious photography I don't have a camera, just scout and come up with a plan and then come back with the right lens at the right time.

So in your choice area, by your river, when I say, "The subject is not important and it doesn't have to be in focus!", I really mean it. First we hunt the light (unless you shoot macro and bring your own). Then we hunt for the real subject and we work out how the subject and light will be best recorded.

Since you do like the leaf, I'd try to go there early in the morning and study what happens. Bring your family and a picnic perhaps and just see where the light goes and look at your watch and make notes. The same happens in the evening and then the light is golden too!

The nice thing is that you don't need to bribe or pay for a model! No lights to lug around. But one does have to shop for light!

Then find your subject! The light will inform you how and from which position and time you will trip the shuttter.

Asher

 

[Rachel Foster]

Got it!

Yes, I see what you mean. Lighting fascinates me and is what drew me into photography, actually, I was attempting to photograph my husband's guitars and found the lighting a bear as there were horrible reflections and glare on it. I kept at it til I got something I liked with the lighting and actually think my very best work is the guitars with lighting. I moved onto flowers, again playing with lighting and then the portraits. The lighting is where it is...getting the shadows on the face just so.

The river photographs have taught me a great deal about changing iso and aperture and shutter speed depending on exactly what object/item in the scene I want in focus. That very difficulty you spoke of -- lighting the woods -- has forced this.

In fact, I've finally stumbled across another way to manipulate the Rebel and figured out how using "menu" within various modes actually work. Going to "picture style" within a mode allows a variety of different effects.

(And....learning all of this "technical" stuff is getting to be fun! A little bit, anyway.)

P.S. I've been bringing the children and supplying them with point-and-shoots. My seven-year-old is coming close to getting better shots than me....gulp.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Hi Rachel,

So you are having tememdous fun with your beloved Canon camera! That a wonderful social tool, almost as good as a great pair of puppies! This pays off in spadefulls.

Here however, we are doing something more difficult. My view is far stricter than others to friends learningg real photography. One must know these things

1. What the aperture changes do and what the numbers 1.4, 2.8, 5.6, 8, 11 etc mean to
light coming in the camera: the light coming in halves with each stop increase!

2. How the shutter speed can be used to keep the quaintity of light the same.

3. How, instead, or in combination the ISO could be upped from say 200 to 400.

Tell me you have found what to read. Please post your reference. That shows we are on track. I am bound not to give you everything. As we don't want to be a school just help show paths that we have like in our own journeys.

By posting the references for the next person, you will justify this experiemntal thread for the next traveler!

Then we'll deal with the reasons for choosing apertures, the hazard and benefits. I'd like you to buy one lens. The 50 1.4. It is inexpensive and will bring you to a new level of work.

This one lens will provide a means of getting the principles that will guide you for all creative work you will tackle. If you cannot afford it, even a used Canon 1.8 will be pretty perfect too!

Asher

So from now on, P, creative menu choices are for fun. Av is for work. Use nothing else yet. That allows you to change the aperture for one of the reasons you read about and have the shutter speed follow. Afterwards you'll go to M which will give you reall understanding.

 

[Rachel Foster]

I've been using mostly P, switching to TV when I can't get P shutter fast enough. AV I'm not using much, and I've played with A-Dep to see how it is different. I've been shooting same thing in different modes to compare, and find I tend to always go back to P.

My reading has been items that seem relevant and pertinent to what I'm currently looking for. Other than Photography for Dummies, it's not something I've kept records of. Forays to a bookstore for better books will have to wait as the nearest decent bookstore is an hour's drive. I could order on line but I prefer to actually go hands on before I select.

I'll post again when I get to another level.

Please know that I'm not asking for lessons. A few questions here and there with a few 30 second responses is more than enough for me. Otherwise, self-study is how I'm proceeding.

Someday, Asher, someday............I will surprise all of you. Someday.

 

[Rachel Foster]

Regarding the lens: very kind of you Asher, but I think maybe I am not ready for another lens. Still getting my baby steps down.

This thread began with my attempts to capture the mirror-like quality of the water. Today I got a little closer. I post this not for critique or to show that I "have it," but only to show I'm edging toward capturing that quality my eye sees but the camera has yet to reproduce. Please do not anyone feel like you must spend any time at all on this photo. Also, I do know it's not yet "there."

 

[Rachel Foster]

duplicated

 

[Rachel Foster]

Image will not cooperate!

 

[Rachel Foster]

struggling with uploading image.....I tried to redo previous image smaller.

 

[Rachel Foster]

Ah me...still far from my goal

but I'm reading, shooting, and fiddling. In the meantime, I got this. It's not what I want..yet. I want a clearer, closer shot, perhaps with the setting sun in the background. Mom Nature has yet to find the right time to allow that to happen, though.

Asher, regarding the leaf photo: You nailed the problem and solution nicely. I knew it needed something -- something significant -- but not what. I've got an entirely new understanding now of composition. For example, Edward Bussa's (http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4174) spider web is ideal. It has all the elements I've been searching for.

Regarding the basics...I'm getting it nailed, slowly but surely.

In the meantime...I'm alive!

 

[Rachel Foster]

The shot of the river I've been seeking is proving elusive. In the meantime, the search has provided practice and a noticeable improvement in my handling of the camera.

Spending a weekend visiting friends, I wandered to the back of the hotel and found an untended spot of vegetation that consisted primarily of weeds. One weed in particular struck my fancy.

 

[janet Smith]

Hi Rachel

Well done, really nice to see your progression, have you tried applying a little sharpening to this one?

 

[Asher Kelman]

Rachel,

Congrats!

This is a super subject and you have made a good picture. I hope you have many more! This is something to contemplate and make sure you have all of it to have a complete picture.

I'll copy that to Macro as well!

Asher

 

[Andrew Stannard]

Hi Rachel,

I've been following your work on that elusive river, and your images that you have taken.

To me this is definitely the best you have presented so far! It's an image that my eyes enjoyed exploring. A small amount of sharpening could really make this image come to life. I've taken the liberty of doing the following....... I'm sure others could do a better job of the sharpening, but it is a start.

If you would like it removed then please feel free to say! This was just a small amount of the unsharp mask filter in photoshop, and a automated action for the frame.


Regards,

 

[Duke Beattie]

The shot of the river I've been seeking is proving elusive.

You realize you may take forever to the the exact shot you want of your river..
And not because of skill.
In the mean time this is a nice shot. A little post processing is all it needs. As was said, sharpen and on my screen the center white portion could use a little toning down. It has plenty of detail in it so it's fine. Maybe it's just my screen..... I notice that the one that Andrew did is a little darker in the middle.. He may have done something else......

 

[Rachel Foster]

Andrew, it's lovely! Just lovely.

Now this might surprise some, given my complaining and frustration with photoshop, but I've been pecking away at it. I've made great strides with magnetic lasso and am having a great deal of fun with it.

Thanks, Asher. I've been working hard. My path may be circuitous, but it's steady and I will get there. I know where I want to go, and I know it requires a great deal of hard work. I want to do the work, actually, because otherwise the mastery won't mean much. How much do we value that which comes easily compared to that for which we work? I'm also easing up on myself, remembering to have fun. I'm back on track with my approach to photography and it's immensely rewarding now.

I want to shoot well, but it's the journey, not the destination, to quote a tired old aphorism. (Aphorism?)

Once again, thanks to all who have watched my journey (short as it's been thus far).

 

[Greg Rogers]

Rachel, I must agree with the others. This is your best image yet! Thanks for posting! Good for you!

One of the things that is tough, and I've been there, is thinking that an image (let's say a jpeg for now) straight out of the camera) should be "perfect".

Oh, did I fight this battle. Good for you for your change of mind (no...attitude would be better put) about post-processing, be it PS or the editor of your choice. Oh, could I tell you stories!

I wonder what Ansel would have to say about all of this electronic post-processing were he still with us? My best guess is he'd be glad to be away from the chemicals and being able to work in light! (Maybe??)

Email me your orig if you feel like it. Not sure I can improve, but perhaps I could lend a couple of simple PS steps and /or tips. Maybe not, but I like a challenge! Andrew did a great job, not sure I can improve, but it might be fun trying.

-Greg

 

[Asher Kelman]

Rachel,

I appreciate that you have focussed on this project. This shows. It takes a huge amount of discipline not to be distracted. Posting high quality makes the tread beautiful and worthwhile!

Asher

 

[Rachel Foster]

The lessons I've learned are paying off bigtime....even I can see improvement.

 

[Rachel Foster]

Meanwhile, back at the river...

I went back to the river today for first snowfall. I am posting this in the spirit of the blog, attempting to show two things: 1) the progression (or lack of?) of the learning, and 2) the river in different seasons.

I had great difficulty getting shots due to the extreme cold.

And just for fun, on the way home...

 

[Rachel Foster]

A shot I took a couple of months ago I've recently come back to:

 

[Rachel Foster]

Had an accident

I took a real hard fall on the ice when I was at the river just now. In fact, I think I may need to get x rays to see if I fractured my lower spine (the area on which I sit!). It hurt badly enough when I went down I worried I would need to call 911. I snapped a few quick pics, though, and the Rebel seems to be working ok, so 911 wasn't required. So far...haven't downloaded anything yet. Tripod it was on is broken, though.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Hi Rachel,

You are not a mountain goat! You cannot hop from rock to rock, at least I cannot. Kids do though. Maybe that's why they are called kids!

It sounds like you may have bruised or fractured your coccyx. I'd get a checkup anyway!

We all wish you better. Ask your doctor what anti-inflammatory meds he might want you on.

Asher

 

[Rachel Foster]

I fear you may be right. I'm off to the Ready Care when the hubby gets home, I think.

I really tickled myself, though, because my first, second, and third thoughts were about the camera!

 

[Jeff O'Neil]

I took a real hard fall on the ice when I was at the river just now. In fact, I think I may need to get x rays to see if I fractured my lower spine (the area on which I sit!). It hurt badly enough when I went down I worried I would need to call 911. I snapped a few quick pics, though, and the Rebel seems to be working ok, so 911 wasn't required. So far...haven't downloaded anything yet. Tripod it was on is broken, though.

Hope you are feeling better Rachel. Ice can be brutal. My dad took a tumble a few years ago whilst walking the dog. I picked him up a pair of YakTrax. Wonderful add on to any shoe or boot. Available practically everywhere easy to put on and inexpensive. Dad's now on his third pair and won't go out in the winter without them!

Here's the link. http://yaktrax.com/products.aspx

Jeff

 

[Ray West]

But if the yaktrax are not enough, maybe something from this guy can give some extra protection ;-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3CzYw5-qdA&NR=1

Best wishes,

Ray

 

[Rachel Foster]

Yup, that ought to do it!

Thanks all. The camera is fine! HA!