secret forums in the net ....

[Rainer Viertlböck]

what a pity, that several and as i suppose mostly experienced, photographers disappeared in "secret" places to discuss their mf equipement. they want to be among them and can choose who is worth to participate and who not..... ( me ad example i was rejected ).
it feels so strange if you want to come in a forum and some anonym guy, who you have not idea who he is and why he decides so,- sais that you are not "worth" to participate in a forum, for whatever reason it might be. you are not famous enough? not experienced enough?or the opposite? too experienced? to critical? or someone dont like you? who knows...... its just disappointing and feels very discrimative.
and its a pity that the few good forums in the net are not longer used to share with people who have lower experience, as it was done over the last years mostly in a nice way in RG, LL, FM and Dp, probably all this happened since this unlucky censorship some months ago in RG.
suppose this are the same people who cried out loud about this RG censorship,- just to do in their own the same r....

 

[Asher Kelman]

what a pity, that several and as i suppose mostly experienced, photographers disappeared in "secret" places to discuss their mf equipement. they want to be among them and can choose who is worth to participate and who not..... ( me ad example i was rejected ).
it feels so strange if you want to come in a forum and some anonym guy, who you have not idea who he is and why he decides so,- sais that you are not "worth" to participate in a forum, for whatever reason it might be. you are not famous enough? not experienced enough?or the opposite? too experienced? to critical? or someone dont like you? who knows...... its just disappointing and feels very discrimative.
and its a pity that the few good forums in the net are not longer used to share with people who have lower experience, as it was done over the last years mostly in a nice way in RG, LL, FM and Dp, probably all this happened since this unlucky censorship some months ago in RG.
suppose this are the same people who cried out loud about this RG censorship,- just to do in their own the same r....

Yes, it is pretty bad that this has happened. I for one am so proud that you are here with us. We need you even more so we can attract others who are also expert in MF and large format to have a critical mass.

Some people are in fact arrogant and they don't want to be bothered with people who know less than they do. Others are big fishes in small bow(e)ls!

We made this place to be open in every possible way. When we publish articles on LF and medium format, it should stengthen our ability to hold discussion on this.

We welcome with open arms every serious photographer, professional or not. I would hope that the secret groups would re-evaluate their policies!

Asher

 

[Erik DeBill]

what a pity, that several and as i suppose mostly experienced, photographers disappeared in "secret" places to discuss their mf equipement. they want to be among them and can choose who is worth to participate and who not..... ( me ad example i was rejected ).

It IS a shame, but I can identify with it.

A friend and I were talking, one thing lead to another, and we're trying to start up a photography group. Right now, it's invitation only and composed entirely of people that one or the other of us knows. This isn't an elitist thing - people range from novice hobbyists to people who are at least semi-pro. We just want to make sure we get off on the right foot, talking about making pictures, rather than debating Canon vs Nikon. I don't know if it will ever go to having an open membership. Heck, at this point we don't even know if it will survive to have a second meeting. I just think it's got the best chance of surviving if we're careful about who we allow to join.

 

[Don Lashier]

To pervert Groucho, I wouldn't want to belong to any club that wouldn't have me as a member.

- DL

 

[Asher Kelman]

Erik,

Whay can't you simply have it be here where there are already people. We are sufficiently young in formation that we are, almost on a daily basis making changes to improve the user experience.

Do you really need to start a new group. What is it that they are looking for that we are missing. We are open to any suggestions!

The amount of work to build a site is huge. It is always better to combine resources so there are more people to answer questions and attract experts. We have already some of the the world's top experts in a number of fields. Some people are the actual designers of key software you depend on. I know their names. This is what we offer. We are currently bringing more guys online in the coming weeks.

So I would like to have feedback and further details by PM, if you wish, as to how we might accomodate special interests.

Mike Spinak's forum on Close Up and Macro, Tim Armes' Retouch forum and the just starting Pet's Forum under don Lashier, started this way.

So we would love to be able to bring to reality people's dreams if we possible can!

Asher

 

[Edmund Ronald]

So we would love to be able to bring to reality people's dreams if we possible can!
Asher

Sounds like we should have a forum on helping models to powder their little noses

I think we have too many experts. A true expert rarely shares because his knowledge is his stock in trade.
Unless he's surrounded by others of equal caliber, then he will want to brag about how good he is at solving problems.


Edmund

 

[Stephen Eastwood]

experts would share with those of lesser skills, but it usually means long explainations about the simple and elemantary things that people should have already took the time to learn.

I have often been asked to show someone how to retouch an image, besides the fact that there are far too many variables, I agree to some basics, only to find out that when I say open the file they ask where do I open the file from? I soon find out they are not computer literate let alone Photoshop savy. Who actually has the time to teach the basics if you are working full time?

Its unfortunate but happens all the time and leads one to basically stop offering to share for fear of long sessions of basic skill sets.

Stephen Eastwood
http://www.Photographersportfolio.com
http://www.StephenEastwood.com
http://www.NYPhotographics.com
718-591-1218

 

[Asher Kelman]

Sounds like we should have a forum on helping models to powder their little noses

I think we have too many experts. A true expert rarely shares because his knowledge is his stock in trade.
Unless he's surrounded by others of equal caliber, then he will want to brag about how good he is at solving problems.


Edmund

Edmund,

We are lucky that experts, real experts, have indeed joined and are willing to help out. In the next weeks, we'll have even more (as photoshop-Adobe RAW-Lightroom experts come aboard.

Some want to be more private or have restrictions in saying whom they work for. We have embedded here already a number of the actual designers of major software and major experts in their respective fields. Some earn substantial fees for their work but are happy to share.

Yes, there are all sorts of other personalities. Some on RG just were miffed to the nth to ever share for free again. They told me the don't want to risk someone telling them they were going to charge for access to what they had freely contributed or else try log in to find out they were banned! Dealing with this was part of the rationale behind Open Photography Forums Initiative that got OPF going just 4 months ago!

People who are so abused can eventually say, I don't need this aggravation and take up their marbles to play somewhere else. We will not easily get those people. They need to nurse their egos and wounds.

There are however a lot of fine photographers still prepared to share. Those who joined us constitute the growing core of this community.

We already are getting a good nucleus for example of event photographers and they could handle any issue you throw at them. Same with Macro, Wedding, Architecture, Landscape, Wildlife as just a few examples.

You may not know all these people. However, I spend hours every day checking websites and interviewing new members to get to know individual photographers as much as possible and expand our resources.

I hope OPF will be unique in depth and courtesy. It is your place or it doesn't work.

But getting back to the idea that true experts won't share, that, I'm glad to say, is not always true!

Asher

 

[nicolas claris]

But getting back to the idea that true experts won't share, that, I'm glad to say, is not always true!

Good points Asher, may I add: *fortunately* :-?

sharing is not only posting its own tips or skills, it is encouraging/discouraging, showing or teach, it is spending time at night after a whole long day work, to share passion.

Yes I do 90% my work with passion.

Sharing can also be about feelings. I don't know any real photographer without feeling…

A great part of my knowledge -if I have any- is due to others that shared with me. Thanks to all of them here.

This is one of the very good reason why I spend so many times in and for OPF.

Days aren't long enough! Romance ? Yes!!!!!!!!!

PS I do think and sincerely hope Edmund, that your post was an explanation, not a statement. Otherwise why would you be there for?

PS2 I post this as simple member of OPF (though one of the very first), not as an expert which I'm not, so maybe I got it all wrong :-!

 

[Sean DeMerchant]

A true expert rarely shares because his knowledge is his stock in trade.

This is untrue. Marking an expert as someone who is at the top of their area, then all experts share by definition alone. Not all teachers are experts, but all experts/masters are teachers after some fashion. One who merely performs the work is simply a craftsperson/journeyman, not an expert/master.

There are 3 steps to learning anything.

1) Memorizing facts and observing behaviors. (apprentice)

2) Intuitively understanding behaviors so you may react by feeling.
(journeyman)

3) Being able to communicate what you feel to others. (master)

This last step involves understanding something clearly enough to be able to explain it to others. Experts do this regularly as it helps them see from different directions and expands their understanding so that their intuition becomes something that spans minds rather than is in their mind alone.

Off the side of all this is genius, but genius is something that is a lonely endevour. But not all geniuses are experts as they do not necessarily know how to explain it, but do get the result sometimes without understanding the steps in the middle as they are obvious intuitive leaps.

There are many more classifications that can be made off the sides, but the above 3 steps are the process to becoming an expert. Expertise is more than being able to do it for yourself, you can do it for others. And those who cannot communicate with others cannot do others' works for them.

Simplistic approach? Perhaps, but I have and studied under some worlds greatest experts in their fields. One, Terry Rockafellar wrote a seminal volume on convex analysis and he was probably one of the best teachers I ever had. His mastery of communication was only exceeded by his knowledge of the subject. Albeit, I took an graduate introduction to network optimization from him and those in the course were already knowledgeable in most aspects. And his knowledge was broad enough from teaching others that he could draw in the confused from many directions to share a concept (i.e., helping guide bio-statistics majors from a new direction when asked). I have dealt with others who show genius, but still lack the total expertise that many decades of communication yields (but they may also have been a more focussed knowledge set of the students part).

This comment instead (quoted) sound more like a bitter remark from dealing with egotistical artisans than dealings with a true expert.

I also understand not wanting to teach file manipulation to people. If they are not ready to learn, then they are not. But direction should still be given. i.e., what you want me to tell you requires you understand using a computer first and that is not my area of expertise. In other words, when they want too much they reach areas where you lack expertise.

I am sorry, but if you cannot clearly explain your work to others, then you are not an expert. You may show aspects of expertise, but not the totallity.

sincerely,

Sean

 

[Asher Kelman]

Sean and Nicolas, you have provided powerful insight into the best of the best.

There's are a lot of baggage one has leave at the gate to be a helpful person. We are fortunate in those experts who do help here.

But there's more than that. Addessing your point, Stephen, of course none of us would ever like you to have to deal with really basic issues. We have plenty of guys who will deal with these chores in a Hollywood second!

You're efforts are best requested for issues (of say lighting or touch-up) where accomplished users can understand and benefit from your guidance. Often, that can be done in 6 lines or less.

However, the potential value is great. Never be turned off by simple or naive issues, just move to something else.

If the subject or person doesn't belong here, let me know and I'll deal with that rapidly. We work hard to guide ,by private correspondance, the nature of posts. To the extent anything doesn't work or can be improved, let me know by PM.

Stephen, I'm especially happy that you are here! Wendy and I enjoyed our time with you in New York. We do put in the miles to meet people, for sure!

Thanks to everyone for the effort you all put in to make this place work.

Asher

 

[Sean DeMerchant]

Sharing can also be about feelings. I don't know any real photographer without feeling…

Nicolas,

I share your love of the word feeling to describe the crafting of an image. Nonetheless, I feel another word is also similary appropriate: intuition

This is a word I learned talking with a neighbor who has a weekend cabin out in the country here. I was talking with him (he has a PhD in Physics with a topic of parellel computation and works as a scientist at Boeing). Chatting with him I brought up thoughts of learning I picked up from years of tutoring freshman calculus and mentioned that thing lacking from mathematics/technical education is feelings. While I learned to use the word feelinds from fluster students who could get it but did not have it explained to them that way, my neighbor gave me the word intuition for the same thing. And, I think intuition and feeling do mean the same thing to different people.

And this ability to transfer the feeling/intuition for a thing to others is the mark of mastery/expertise. While an expert in a business environment will be able to explain it all in too much cdetail, they will nonetheless have the depth of knowledge of how to express a thing dozens of ways at a high level to draw the client in. These "silent" expers are not in any way silent, but instead they can talk with an ignorant (not an insult but a lack of knowledge about a subject) person and learn about the ignorant individuals issues at their level and then paraphrase their knowledge within the clients nomenclature. This is the mark of expertise.

And such expertise is achieved through practice at teaching it. Those who hoard knowledge, barring genius, tend to fall behind and lose their cohesion with reality fast as they fail to pay attention. And paying attendtion to students is half, if not more than half, of teaching as teaching is about guiding and not about prescription*.

enjoy,

Sean

* Note, even in mathematics, presciption is not the course of action. Yes, the neophytes feelings are not directly actionable, but nonetheless the neophytes feelings matters. Why? Because they are there to learn how things behave and intuition is based upon feelings.

 

[Edmund Ronald]

Stephen, I learnt a lot from those retouching challenges you put up on dpr in early days. But unfortunately you are right, helping gets frustrating when people need to learn the basics but come to the expert for advice.

From my university teaching days I remember the good sides of teaching: Start with defining a curriculum and a recruit a homogeneous group of motivated students who are genuinely interested by the curriculum you publicised - every day you then have this wonderful impression that you are getting somewhere, and at the end of the course people are doing sophisticated projects of their own, and having fun.

However on a forum, people keep asking the same questions over and over again, and in fact they often don't want to learn, they just need tech support. Which is understandable: when you go to see the car mechanic you don't want to learn about cars, you just want your own car to run again. But repairing cars by remote control is not necessarily something that a car mechanic wants to do for free to often.

I don't think that having experts here builds a community for learners. But having a place where we experts can vent about the frustrations of dealing with beginners certainly does build a community for experts - look at the way this thread took off

Edmund

 

[Sean DeMerchant]

I don't think that having experts here builds a community for learners. But having a place where we experts can vent about the frustrations of dealing with beginners certainly does build a community for experts - look at the way this thread took off

<Honestly offended opinion>

What an insulting thing to say. I do not get <the winks> here whatsoever.

<insults deleted in the name of leaving room for polite discussion and you to clarify yourself>

very insulted by your elitism,

Sean

[edit]
I should note that I am one of the most pro-education people you will ever meet.

 

[Edmund Ronald]

<Honestly offended opinion>

What an insulting thing to say. I do not get <the winks> here whatsoever.

<insults deleted in the name of leaving room for polite discussion and you to clarify yourself>

very insulted by your elitism,

Sean

[edit]
I should note that I am one of the most pro-education people you will ever meet.

Clariification:

No insult intended - it's just that there are so many of us "experts" here. Feels like we should have a party ! This is like a teacher/student meeting where the students have failed to turn up - the teachers can indulge in drinking, chatting each other up and venting

I would like to thank Asher for his part in getting us all in the same virtual room .

As we "experts" seem to outnumber the "amateurs" on this forum it seems we might as well enjoy this rare population inversion and moan and complain to out heart's delight about *our* problems as distinct from *theirs*


Edmund

-- This is not a quote . (Anon).

 

[Sean DeMerchant]

Clariification:

...

As we "experts" seem to outnumber the "amateurs" on this forum we might as well enjoy this rare population inversion and moan and complain to out heart's delight

Hi Edmund, <warm smile in the eyes>

<smiling> As it is still rather warm and your smiles do not mix right emotionally with your words I just sucked down half a liter of water as I may well be dehydrated and just too darned touchy. <friendly smile>. And yes, I have been moaning and complaining. <still grining as I think I am being too touchy>.

Nonetheless, my experience in life with world class experts is that they want to share what they know. I know I spent many years unable to see the photo for the photons and their representation on the sensing media (silicon or celluloid). But it is the final image that people see. The expert in sensor design (silicon or celluloid) is not an imaging expert and they in general are unlikely to know composition. The most insightful comment I have seen on this sight was a short sentence that would have taken me paragraphs to write up. Yet that short comment verbalized emotions I have felt and answered what I asked clearly, concisely, and expertly. I am not up to that yet (I can see much but not all, capture what I see within technological limits, but at times I just ride my emotions when shooting)

Expertise is not intimate knowledge of the subject matter, expertise is the ability to translate those intricate details into something real that the non-expert can feel. And if one cannot generate that feeling in the neophyte, then one has not mastered the subject. Heck, this is why the worlds experts on esoteric subjects publish in peer reviewed journals to get the perspective of the neophytes in their subject area. With the visual image, it is a totally different tale as we nearly all have tri-chromatic vision. Seeing it and feeling it are easy things to do. Explaining the underlying physics simply to the neophyte is hard. Whereas explaining it to a college graduate who understood calculus and freshman physics is easy. But understanding it intuitively and being able communicate it is a completely different issue.

I should also note I came at this whole photography thing from computer vision and it took me about 4 years after seriously picking up the camera before I could relate the physics and computer calculations to what I felt with my eyes. And getting that feeling simply gave me a modicum of expertise. And it amazes me how much more I can communicate both verbally and visually with that knowlededge. But I am not an expert as I am still learning to teach and communicate those ideas. Some ideas, which are so simple and obvious compared to the lies and oversimplifications found in many photography texts, I still cannot explain simply. I can see how moronic the lies are, but I cannot communicate such that it ties into peoples' intuitions.

And it is that communication that marks mastery rather than the simple understanding of it. I just cannot countenance calling those greedy with their knowledge experts as they have chosen to stop learning. And the final step of undersanding is always the ability to communicate it.

enjoy your day,

Sean <gentle but tired smile as I am about to sleep>

 

[Ray West]

So, is this a bit of a cl***que, then?

I always remember 'expert' as a being 'x' the unknown quantity, and 'spurt' the drip under pressure.

There are a number of benefits to a closed forum, for many situations. However, if you have a skill or product you are trying to sell, then an open forum may have more potential customers.

 

[Edmund Ronald]

Hi Edmund, <warm smile in the eyes>

And it is that communication that marks mastery rather than the simple understanding of it. I just cannot countenance calling those greedy with their knowledge experts as they have chosen to stop learning. And the final step of undersanding is always the ability to communicate it.

enjoy your day,

Sean <gentle but tired smile as I am about to sleep>

I don't call such people necessarily greedy. Most are just burnt-out or momentarily tired -

I hope you will have a refreshing sleep ! For me, lunch beckons !

Edmund

 

[EricStaud]

Who belongs to this forum?:

FIGHT CLUB
http://prodigital.proboards98.com/index.cgi

 

[Rainer Viertlböck]

expert and sharing

i think in some aereas esp. of capturing architecture with digital tools, i can slowly by slowly say that i feel that i learnd enough that i can tell many things , not alone to newbies.
also my shooting technique often is skilled in a wide variety of technik or knowledge how to use or capture good images ( as i hope good...). some people say that this or that technik is so their own that they loose market to others if they share them. i never found this reasonable for me and so i have not many " secrets " wherefrom i think someone could copy my style or hunt my clients if he would know them. i think it might be a long way if someone tries to shoot exactly as me and the result would be probably a copy, but noone from which competiotion i would have fear. and other photographers who developed their unique style and technique will not need to grow up with " secrets " from me,- they already are in a point that they can share, not copy. i was learning many things in the internet and a was sharing many things also,- it always was a good deal for me to do so,- to do both.....
and i never was overrolled by questions of newbies who dont know whats a canon or whats a nikon camera, aslo i have answered some like this. but it didnt drove me crazy or overspent my time budgets, it really never was a big deal, although i am good known in several forums already.

 

[Erik DeBill]

The amount of work to build a site is huge. It is always better to combine resources so there are more people to answer questions and attract experts. We have already some of the the world's top experts in a number of fields. Some people are the actual designers of key software you depend on. I know their names. This is what we offer. We are currently bringing more guys online in the coming weeks.

Ah. I'm sorry - I should have been more explicit. This new group is not a web forum, but instead a real-life meeting group. The intention is to include at least some of the sentiment of Paul Butzi's Monday Night Group, but also to go on shooting expeditions together and other such things.

Really, I have no intention of leaving this forum or trying to supplant it, even for a small group. I have, in fact, recommended it to everyone.

 

[Brian Lowe]

Hello to all the "experts"<he said with a big warm sincere smile>.


Just to let you know I consider myself an amateur photographer with a passion to learn. I am very happy to have found OPF because of all the depth of the "experts". You may see yourself as experts but I see you as experienced, seasoned and very well educated in the subject of photography. I hope all of you continue to share so we “students” may learn from you.


Brian

 

[Paul Schefz]

i participate in forums not to teach but to share information and to ask questions and hopefully answer questions to help people save time and/or money....i have spent a lot of time and money switching from film to digital and i am happy to share my experiences...but just like dark room printing: you can read all the books you want, at one point you have to get your hands dirty and then probably find your own techniques....
a little side note here: i went to art school and there were 2 kinds of people the ones you could ask: hey cool, how did you do that? and the ones who were screaming; you stole my technique! i have never understood the second group, just because you know how to do something a certain way does not mean the result will be any good....or as ansel adams said: nothing worse then a sharp picture of a fuzzy concept...

anyway: having worked as an assistant for some of the most famous (fashion, portrait) photographers in NY i can say that there is no secrecy whatsoever with these people...for the most part because they know that the camera won't make the picture and it is their hard work that gets them the job in the first place...once they have it, they hire the people to make sure they get the shot...digital techs,...i also don't see annie leibovitz sharing experiences in some forum...i don't think she has the time...(and as she told a fellow assistant of mine, she does not care about the tech side, that's what he was there for...)

so i am not sure who these experts in these secret forums are...if htey are some of the people from the old RG forum...so be it...i always looked at these exchanges more as entertainment....you did not get a better answer to a specific problem there then you will at this or LL or some other "open" forum....
maybe we are missing out on some good scoop...

there were some digital techs on the RG forum that seem to have disappeared, but i wonder if they would be as active in a closed forum...i always felt that a part of their being there was to drum up business...the same reason why some dealers participate...

i guess in the end it also comes down to this: if you have a closed forum with only 20?50? people posting...it can't be very active unless most of it really only is personal chatting...myspace anyone?

 

[Asher Kelman]

Who belongs to this forum?:

FIGHT CLUB
http://prodigital.proboards98.com/index.cgi

I can just explain my own motivations and those of the initial group that lead to OPF.

We were fed up with cutting, closing and deleting of threads to fit in with someone's advertising or personal points of view. We were angry that people would suddenly be banned for no reason or silly excuses. We wanted to have a community, not a place for bragging rights or obsessing about technical minutiae.

Our vision was an open uncensored forum where serious photographers could hang out and share.

I follow this to my best ability. My own direction is from "vision" to delivery of the finest images.

Anything, (camera, lens, service, person, discussion) which helps with this arc of "making the image”, is relevant. And also humor!

Asher

 

[Mary Bull]

From one lowly student

Hey, Edmund!

I'm here! Mary, the consummate and teachable amateur!

And I've put up a few bad pics, too!

Asher has been the main one to take me in hand, and I do believe his help and that of others who have replied to me in this forum and by PM is beginning to bear a little fruit!

I am greatly enjoying reading this particular thread and am trying to understand the various points of view as I read it.

I am humble and grateful to be allowed to read and to post and even to put up an embedded file from time to time.

IMO, OPF is the greatest thing since sliced bread for me, the humble learner.

Mary

 

[Edmund Ronald]

Hey, Edmund!

I'm here! Mary, the consummate and teachable amateur!

And I've put up a few bad pics, too!

Asher has been the main one to take me in hand, and I do believe his help and that of others who have replied to me in this forum and by PM is beginning to bear a little fruit!

I am greatly enjoying reading this particular thread and am trying to understand the various points of view as I read it.

I am humble and grateful to be allowed to read and to post and even to put up an embedded file from time to time.

IMO, OPF is the greatest thing since sliced bread for me, the humble learner.

Mary

Hehe, hail Mary, well met !

Edmund

 

[Asher Kelman]

So who's in a secret forum and why?

Asher

 

[Stephen Eastwood]

one reason some may choose to be in a secret forum is anonymity, they can ask questions without fear of anyone looking down upon them for not knowing all the answers.

Just a thought!

 

[Asher Kelman]

one reason some may choose to be in a secret forum is anonymity, they can ask questions without fear of anyone looking down upon them for not knowing all the answers.

Just a thought!

Glad to hear from you Stephen! We miss you! Iguess we'd better come to NY again soon!

"one reason some may choose to be in a secret forum is anonymity" I'd think the truth is the opposite! With say 50-100 members, everyone knows everyone else and there is no aura of genius allowed since everyone knows very quickly everything about you. So no room for geniuses or fools!

BTW, do you think anyone actually fears being shamed for not knowing the right answers? I hope that doesn't happen here!

Asher

 

[Stephen Eastwood]

famous photographers do not want to be found out as having asked an elementary question, its just a state of being they don't fear ridicule as much as a lessoning of status in the minds of others.