Spanish Bullfighting (WARNING potentially offensive images)

[Antonio Correia]

I know this picture, I saw it in a life book of 20th century photography when I was 8 years old, (god time does fly doesn’t it) this is a mother giving her child a bath, which is severely deformed due to mercury poisoning (if memory serves me right that is). I believe it is regarded as Smith’s finest work.
I think what Will is trying to say is, that you can use Art to illustrate barbarity, Goya’s “The Third of May 1808: The Execution of the Defenders of Madrid” springs to mind as another example.

I can’t agree with this particular spectacle, there is something fundamentally wrong with humans torturing animals as an expression of their art. Although, as you can see in my photographs, I agree with the use of Art to denounce Barbarism,

Now I understand the connection between Art and Barbarity. I mean, I understand what you are meaning...
But may be, there is a difference between an act of Barbarity expressly made - on purpose - and the documenting of an event after it happened and not meant.
I don't know if I made myself clear.

The Minamata tragedy - I knew it of course - is the translation on paper of something that happened.
It was not: It is going to happen so, let's take pictures (bullfighting).
It was: It happened so, lets take pictures (Minamata).

All this can produce works of Art if they are to be recognized by the Society.

On the other way there is a straight and strong connection between the essence of the picture and the picture itself.

There is also the problem of who proposes the photo: if it is a well known photographer or an anonymous one...

 

[Will_Perlis]

"It was not: It is going to happen so, let's take pictures (bullfighting).
It was: It happened so, lets take pictures (Minamata)."

But one of the hallmarks of a good photojournalist (or reporter) is knowing when something worth recording is *going* to happen. Obviously, that anticipation can't be 100% correct but very often signs and portents are available to a good observer.

One of the things that can turn an anonymous photographer into a well-known one is having that ability to be there when something interesting happens.

 

[Ivan Garcia]

Well, is that time of the year again and my yearly trip to Spain is eminent (leaving tomorrow afternoon).
I shall repeat my Bullfighting photography challenge, although this time I shall be armed with my new 1D MKIII, I will be hopping for and increased rate of in focus shots, (if my body does not suffer from any serious focusing issues that is).
I shall be posting the resulting images in this thread, on my return.

 

[Kathy Rappaport]

I am going to Spain too

We are planning our short visit to Spain in November and what to do while we are there. I have seen enough here to know that there is absolutely no way I can ever go to a bullfight (not that I ever wanted to before).

What makes this really much different than slaugther of animals for food? My father and grandfathers (both maternal and paternal) were in the wholesale meat business. I, even as an adult, was never allowed in the slaughterhouse because of it's blood and gore.

Yet, this is different - probably because the animals are never humanely treated. In the US, there are/were laws prohibiting any torture of the animals - they must be killed humanely.

At least for food there is a purpose, but for sport - yes, it is barbaric. I could not go and support that on any level.

 

[Antonio Correia]

Well, is that time of the year again and my yearly trip to Spain is eminent (leaving tomorrow afternoon).
I shall repeat my Bullfighting photography challenge, although this time I shall be armed with my new 1D MKIII, I will be hopping for and increased rate of in focus shots, (if my body does not suffer from any serious focusing issues that is).
I shall be posting the resulting images in this thread, on my return.

I don't like bull fights myself but I hope to see nice pictures by Ivan.

 

[Georg R. Baumann]

It is only after several hours of cattle truck transport, in the hot Spanish summer sun, and without being given any food or water, that the bulls arrives at the fighting ring.
Once there, they are kept in the building “Corrales” were they go through a series of barbaric treatments to weaken them.
Sulphates are put in their water to induce diarrhoea, they are beaten repeatedly in their kidneys, testicles, and legs, sometimes so severely that the bull continuously losses his front legs during the fight, a substance is spread in the bedding that makes them itch so that the animal can’t keep still and is always on the move, Vaseline is rubbed on to their eyes to impede their vision, heavy weights are hung on their necks for hours, and their horns are sanded round, all of this, to protect the fighter.

I never heard about that before.... I am speechless.

 

[Ivan Garcia]

Well, I am back from my yearly trip to Spain.
As usual I took some bullfighting shots.
This year I was armed with the awesome 1D MKIII. Some mixed feelings about this machine, but overall, miles ahead of anything I have previously owned, including the very capable EOS 1RS I owned several years ago.
I am most impressed by the incredible low noise at high ISO, I am finding (as you will see in some of the shots) that ISO 6400 is very usable indeed.
I have been investigating some claims offered by those opposed to bullfighting, specifically, I wanted to find out if the pre-fight abuse I reported last year was in fact true.
Sadly I have to report that the practice of pre-fight abuse has been confirmed. It is confined to minor festivities, with practically un-known fighters; it is however, none existent in major events.
I have arranged a tour for next year which will get me behind the scenes, I will report on my findings in this thread.

Mr Fandy in full flight.
Canon EOS 1D Mark III
Tv 1/160 sec, Av F/5
ISO 800, Canon 100-400mm L IS @120mm

Mr Manzanares .
Canon EOS 1D Mark III
Tv 1/250 sec, Av F/6.3
ISO 6400, Canon 100-400mm L IS @180mm​

 

[Antonio Correia]

Ivan, tell me: Do you like this bull fight "business" or do you just like to go and shoot ?
I have the possibility to shoot here in Portugal, but I have always refused because I am against bad treatment on animals, humans or not.
The abusive is done in Portugal as well, but I think, under a minor way.
Where are more photos of this savage "business" ?
I would like to see that. I think others will like it too.
Congrats for the MkIII !
Cheers.

 

[Ivan Garcia]

Ivan, tell me: Do you like this bull fight "business" or do you just like to go and shoot ?
I have the possibility to shoot here in Portugal, but I have always refused because I am against bad treatment on animals, humans or not.
The abusive is done in Portugal as well, but I think, under a minor way.
Where are more photos of this savage "business" ?
I would like to see that. I think others will like it too.
Congrats for the MkIII !
Cheers.

Hi Antonio.
I have mixed feelings about this particular "business".
In the one hand I am very much against the actual damage inflicted on to these beautiful animals, but, I must admit; I find these fights fascinating; I also enjoy shooting these events, it is a very challenging environment that pushes my skills, thus making me a better photographer.
If you have the chance to attend and shoot one of these fights; don’t hesitate, just do it.
More pictures will follow.

"El Cid"
Canon EOS 1D Mark III
Tv 1/200 sec, Av F/5
ISO 800, Canon 100/400mm L IS @ 160mm​

 

[Ivan Garcia]

As promised
Moe pictures.
This ones concentrate more in the damage this animals suffer; which ultimately lead to death.

“El Fandi”
Canon EOS 1D Mark III
Tv 1/125 sec, Av F/5.6
ISO 800, Canon 100/400mm L IS @ 100mm

Canon EOS 1D Mark III
Tv 1/250 sec, Av F/5
ISO 6400, Canon 100/400mm L IS @ 250mm

"El Fandi"
Canon EOS 1D Mark III
Tv 1/320 sec, Av F/6.3
ISO 6400, Canon 100/400mm L IS @ 200mm

"Jose Maria Manzanares"
Canon EOS 1D Mark III
Tv 1/250 sec, Av F/5.6
ISO 6400, Canon 100/400mm L IS @ 190mm​

 

[Ivan Garcia]

Canon EOS 1D Mark III
Tv 1/200 sec, Av F/5.6
ISO 6400, Canon 100/400mm L IS @ 275mm

Canon EOS 1D Mark III
Tv 1/250 sec, Av F/5.6
ISO 6400, Canon 100/400mm L IS @ 275mm​

 

[nicolas claris]

The only thank we can tell is to the photographer who reports such an integral HORROR in 2007.

Should this help to have this kind of man's beast behavior to be forbidden for ever and those who practice been punished. For me, porn is not worth :-(

 

[Ivan Garcia]

Hi Nicolas.
Thank you for your praise in my work.
The last two pictures put a knot in my throat, I nearly cried as I watched this animal die. His lounges punctured by the sword, he took the best part of two minutes to die, blood pouring out of his mouth.
The chances of these events being outlawed are very slim; this event was completely sold out.
The European government has laws against this kind of animal torture, but the Spanish breeders are trying to pass a clause which will enable them to continue with this blood savagery.
As I have reported in previous post, there is some good news, Barcelona has banned the events and more cities are following that example.
I must say, I doubt the south of Spain will follow that rote; Bullfighting is very much embedded in their culture, and together with sherry production, and the olive oil industry; Bull breeding and fighting, is a major contributor in that part of my country economy.

Still, Next year I am planning to get behind the scenes, maybe getting access to the reported torture these animals suffer in the “pre-fight” treatment.

I may need a small innocuous camera for that, as my 5D and 1DIII are going to arouse suspicion. Maybe If I manage to get proper photographic evidence of the atrocities, the government will take action and ban these events forever.

 

[nicolas claris]

Thanks Ivan for your assesment, I must say that this does occur in South of France too, they argue that this is part of the country's tradition…
Sometimes I do hate traditions (in fact most of the times!) Traditions are pulling us back, not forward…

Please continue your good work, at the end it can only pays (to ban corridas)

 

[Ivan Garcia]

Hi Nicolas.
I am all for the banning of the damage they inflict upon these poor animals.
However, I have to admit, that I find the “dance” fighter and bull perform fascinating, is the torture and eventual killing of the bull I am against.
If only they could find a good compromise, ie: perform the beautiful dance without inflicting any kind of damage on to the bull.
Doing so, will allow for the “traditionalist” to have their events, the fighters will have no need to find alternative employment, the economies will no suffer, and the professional photographers who specialize in these events, can continue taking pictures so they can make a living; to me, that will be the ideal solution.
If this compromise can not be reached, then I will rather have the whole event banned, The bull, IMHO, has rights.

 

[nicolas claris]

I fully agree with you…

 

[Georg R. Baumann]

To inflict pain and ulltimately death on another creature for "entertainment" is a condition as serious as cancer and can be witnessed amongst many cultures in various phenomenon forms unfortunately.

I hope there will be a day where respect for all creation is the common sense that drives cultures development rather than greed and destruction.

Call me a dreamer.... I sign it!

 

[John Hollenberg]

I can think of no better antidote to the "illness" of bullfighting than your pictures and commentary. Having never been to a bullfight, both forms of communication certainly opened my eyes.

--John

 

[Ivan Garcia]

We are planning our short visit to Spain in November and what to do while we are there. I have seen enough here to know that there is absolutely no way I can ever go to a bullfight (not that I ever wanted to before).

What makes this really much different than slaugther of animals for food? My father and grandfathers (both maternal and paternal) were in the wholesale meat business. I, even as an adult, was never allowed in the slaughterhouse because of it's blood and gore.

Yet, this is different - probably because the animals are never humanely treated. In the US, there are/were laws prohibiting any torture of the animals - they must be killed humanely.

At least for food there is a purpose, but for sport - yes, it is barbaric. I could not go and support that on any level.

Well I am not surprised that even today you are not allowed to enter the slaughterhouse of your family business.
You more than likely to see something like this WARNING!!!! EXTREME VIDEO OF CATTLE BEING SLAUGHTERED FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION. Click at your own risk "Kosher" Slaughter at AgriProcessors
Compared with this practice … Spanish bullfighting seems even charitable to the animal (not that I am commending it neither)
A 40 minute version of that movie can be found "HERE"
The full PETA investigation can be found HERE

 

[Georg R. Baumann]

This is an interesting twist.

Isn't it strange how we became detached from what we consume to surrvive? I remember a friend of mine who was raised in the city and who visited me at the age of 24 in my place in Belgium, a rural place where all kind of animals belonged to the daily life.

I greeted him at the entry to the driveway as I was coming back from a walk with my dogs when he stoped his Porsche to say Hello.

To the left was a meadow with horses and to the right a flock of may be 100 sheep.

His first reaction was "Wow! You have real goats here!"

I could not stop laughing for the better part of 10 minutes or so when I figured he really meant it.

The Mega business of food production and the unfair treatment of the producers has come to public mind in the past few years. Too little too late? I am afraid so. Now we even face gene manipulated crops that fill our plates.

When I go shopping in our local store here in Ireland it reads like: Basil from Israel, Green Beans from Kenia, New potatoas from Marocco, and so on, all stuff that can be easily produced locally, but only recently consumers became aware about the tragedy behind this.

"Where do Burgers come from Daddy?"
"From Mc Donalds, why?"

I think our relationship to food has become somewhat perverted. May be the obesity problem is one result of this perversion. I was raised in a time where double fat cheese and 3 times meat a day was considered healthy and a must have. Understandably, the after WWII generation had a lot to catch up.

I think it should be part of education to teach children more about food and how the reality of the production cycles are these days, as cruel as it is, no pink glasses please, just the reality of our ways to distribute and manage food. May be this would change a little in the future?

 

[KrisCarnmarker]

Of course, Bullfighting is not the only form of animal cruelty. All you have to do is watch the various Animal Planet shows about "animal police" to see that animal cruelty is widespread. Sometimes it is simply a lack of understanding, sometimes it is completely intentional.

The detestable slaughtering methods that some companies employ is just another example of how low some people have stooped. And it's doesn't start there! The transportation of animals to the slaughterhouse can be so bad that death for the poor animal must be welcomed by them. The EU has laws against improper transportation and slaughter of animals. But there doesn't seem to be any enforcement, much less any prosecution.

Having said all that, there is a difference between these abhorrent practices and Bullfighting. Bullfighting is for entertainment! The only entertainment in Spanish Bullfighting is when the matador gets gutted by the bull. Unfortunately, the matador usually doesn't die.

 

[Ivan Garcia]

Of course, Bullfighting is not the only form of animal cruelty. All you have to do is watch the various Animal Planet shows about "animal police" to see that animal cruelty is widespread. Sometimes it is simply a lack of understanding, sometimes it is completely intentional.

The detestable slaughtering methods that some companies employ is just another example of how low some people have stooped. And it's doesn't start there! The transportation of animals to the slaughterhouse can be so bad that death for the poor animal must be welcomed by them. The EU has laws against improper transportation and slaughter of animals. But there doesn't seem to be any enforcement, much less any prosecution.

Having said all that, there is a difference between these abhorrent practices and Bullfighting. Bullfighting is for entertainment! The only entertainment in Spanish Bullfighting is when the matador gets gutted by the bull. Unfortunately, the matador usually doesn't die.

Well, not quiet.
Although Bullfighting is done for entertainment, after the “show”, the Bull finds its way on to the food Chain; even the head finds a proud place for display on the walls of the many restaurants and bars surrounding the bullrings.

 

[Ray West]

Hi Ivan,

I was going to ask what happened to the carcass - I expect it is tough as old boots. It used to be, that in the larger slaughter houses, the cattle were injected with a 'relaxant'. Tensed up meat is pretty tough, after travelling the miles the have to, after the smaller local slaughter houses were closed down, the cattle were pretty stressed. None of the liver was of use - turned to green mush. The local 'one man' slaughter house, he kept the animal for a day, quietened down naturally, meat tender, all edible. Places long closed, thanks to eec regs. Because of the large scale/long distance animal movements, within the uk, it plays right into the eec wishes, who want to completely dismantle the agricultural industry of the UK. I am of the opinion that very few people understand much about anything food wise, just the lies that the large processors/retailers tell them.

A few years ago, we banned hunting with dogs - fox hunting/ stag hunting etc. Far from a mass spectator sport, but very much a countryside tradition, of great religious importance - pictures on Christmas cards ;-), etc. I'm sure Spain could sort out bull fighting, if they had the will to get into the 21st century.

Best wishes,

Ray

 

[Ivan Garcia]

Hi Ray
Sorry it took so long to answer.
The meet is used mostly in stews, so you must be right, tough as nails.
Although I don’t know this to be true, I will also venture to guess, most of these animals end up in the pet food industry, and as feed for the many predators kept in zoos, I’ll make some enquires to find out.

 

[Annie James]

Sport Art or Barbarity? Ohh lets have a little thinkeepooh, um, I'd say Barbarity. People say ' Oh but it's a cultural thing' well, so is female circumsicion in some countries, does that make it less Barbaric? It's a damn damn shame that these bullfighters are so gorgeous, makes it much more difficult for me to be ethical!

 

[Antonio Correia]

Sport Art or Barbarity? Ohh lets have a little thinkeepooh, um, I'd say Barbarity. People say ' Oh but it's a cultural thing' well, so is female circumsicion in some countries, does that make it less Barbaric? It's a damn damn shame that these bullfighters are so gorgeous, makes it much more difficult for me to be ethical!

ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. I TOTTALY AGREE !

 

[nicolas claris]

Hey Antonio

Good to hear again from you! I hope all is well for you…
How is Portugal these days (OK, let's forget Rugby;-)

 

[Antonio Correia]

Hey Antonio

Good to hear again from you! I hope all is well for you…
How is Portugal these days (OK, let's forget Rugby;-)

Nikolas. Good evening.
Everything is fine with me thank you.
To be honest I like best to be in foruns less aggressive for my eyes !...
This white bluish kills me.
A shame for me.

May be you would like to have a look at my pictures I shot lately on plains.
For the time beeing they are here

I work in a place called Moita. They do bull fighting and at the table in the canteen at lunch time we - my friends and myself - always talk bad things about this activity.

But it is very popular and the communist party is ruling the Town hall. They could never banish such activity because they would have not the guts and would lose many votes. It would be a disgrace for them. (This would not be a bad thing)

But I have promised that next year I will shoot a bull fight.
And this puts a question to my mind immediate: How to shoot something we don't like and how to transmit that feeling ?

I post here a picture I shot there the other day when they have done a "largada". They live the bull in the street and let him run loose.
Look at the face of this woman. She is impressed with so much savageness. (does this world exist at all ?)

 

[Ivan Garcia]

Hi Antonio.
You need to approach these events as you would any other photo shoot.
Do it justice, and don´t just take biased shots.
That woman looks like she has just seen her partner with another...I wouldn´t dare to show her that shot though... I don´t want to die young lol.

 

[Antonio Correia]

... That woman looks like she has just seen her partner with another...I wouldn´t dare to show her that shot though... I don´t want to die young lol.

Neither do I !!!