Thanks and question

[Roger Lambert]

First of all - Thanks to Tom Yi for sharing all his fine work and thoughts on street photography. I have found it very inspiring and really helpful.

I have never tried this particular form of photography until just a couple of weeks ago, and I must say it had its challenges. I am fairly new to photography in general and love color landscape photography in particular. I decided to try some street photography in downtown Burlington, VT, and just to make things interesting, set my 5D to monochrome = B&W.

I think many, if not most, of the contributers here at this forum have a long history in photography, going back to darkroom days and hand-processing film. Seeing the world through the lens in terms of B&W is likely second-nature to many of you.

Such is not the case for me!

Just trying to visualize the world in B&W was pretty difficult. I had a lot of fun, but honestly it could not have been said to be the most auspicious maiden safari. But I enjoyed it immensely.

It was very edifying to read Tom Yi's technique's. Very different from my first approach. And different, I suspect from that of other folks here at the forum. I know when downtown, I saw another photograoher looking for shots.

This fellow was really on safari. Actually had a safari hat, khaki vest - looked like Ernest hemingway without the beard. And was relatively stationary, and had a very long lens. Different strokes.

I was fascinated to see and read of Tom's use of the wide angle lens. He certainly uses it to wonderful effect. My initial thought would have been to use a 50mm lens on a full-frame 5D for verasimilitude, but the hyperreality of wider angle is really powerful. ( I actually used my brand new 85 1.8 to try it out)

I am hoping with this post to solicit other people's advice on their philosophy on this form of photography.

What image are you looking for when you go out, or you even have anything preconceived?

Do you shoot in color? Keep in color and then convert? Start in B&W and stay there only?

Use a variety of lenses or stick to a few or one?

Do you find this to be your most fulfilling genre?

What is your experience as far as selling this type of work?

Thank you in advance on any and all your input. It is appreciated.

Best regards,

Roger Lambert

 

[Asher Kelman]

First of all - Thanks to Tom Yi for sharing all his fine work and thoughts on street photography. I have found it very inspiring and really helpful.....................
I decided to try some street photography in downtown Burlington, VT, and just to make things interesting, set my 5D to monochrome = B&W.....................
What image are you looking for when you go out, or you even have anything preconceived?

Do you shoot in color? Keep in color and then convert? Start in B&W and stay there only?

Use a variety of lenses or stick to a few or one?

Do you find this to be your most fulfilling genre?

What is your experience as far as selling this type of work?

Thank you in advance on any and all your input. It is appreciated.

Best regards,

Roger Lambert

Hi Roger,

Yes, Tom Yi's work certainly sparks creative juices.

For now, I will leave most of your questions to other members to address.

Shortly there will be articles posted on street photography that you might find helpful.

I would suggest starting with no lens. Just walk around with your hand set up like a view finder. This is your first tool. Look at the time of the day and the shadows. Note where the sun is and where the interesting locals hangout and at what time. Now you can plan your shoot.

Asher

 

[Harvey Moore]

Experiences on perception and practise of photography....

When I was young and starting to go to the movies, the majority were b/w. Most of the "older" movies were b/w. For a while, I thought the world was b/w in the old days.

My first high end street camera was an M3 with three lens, 35, 50, and 90 (in the 60s). Did my own processing, could not afford color darkroom equipment. Shot mostly Tri-X and Plus-X pushed in Acufine developer. The look of the prints came courtesy of Leitz lens, film, and processing techniques. I was very pleased with look of the prints.

I have dabbled some in b/w conversion with digital images, but I have not shot much lately that would be improved by b/w conversion.

I too would like to see discussions on what are deciding factors to go b/w, image editing techniques, etc.

 

[Roger Lambert]

Well, I love the idea off shooting from the hip. ( There's a joke in there somewhere )

The first thing to do is remove the camera strap, and put on a discrete lens. The more I do it, the better I'll get.

BTW, I was told that the world WAS in b&w until color TV came out. That's what I told my daughter anyway. Her reply: What's a b&w TV?

Thanks for your replies!

RL

 

[Asher Kelman]

...............As for developing techniques? RSP to convert to b/w and contrast/curves/sharpen/crop/rotate etc. Then to PSE for dodge and burn and add color tones. With b/w, I learned form the film guys that something has to be definately black and something has to be definately white. That's it. ..........

I wonder what you mean by this Tom?

Am I understanding that you seek a very high contrast image. If you say "that something has to be definately black and something has to be definately white. That's it", then where are the tones in between?

I'm sure I've misunderstood you, or maybe not. That guy with the wound on his head is high contrast and his shirt is one white tone. I took that as part of your rapid style and accepted that. Is that the case, or are you delibrately creating that appearance in post-processing from a normally exposed image?

Asher

 

[Asher Kelman]

...............As for developing techniques? RSP to convert to b/w and contrast/curves/sharpen/crop/rotate etc. Then to PSE for dodge and burn and add color tones. With b/w, I learned form the film guys that something has to be definately black and something has to be definately white. That's it. ..........

I wonder what you mean by this Tom?

Am I understanding that you seek a very high contrast image. If you say "that something has to be definately black and something has to be definately white. That's it", then where are the tones in between?

I'm sure I've misunderstood you, or maybe not. That guy with the wound on his head is high contrast and his shirt is one white tone. I took that as part of your rapid style and accepted that. Is that the case, or are you delibrately creating that appearance in post-processing from a normally exposed image?

Asher

 

[Don Lashier]

I don't mind overblowing it a little bit. I'm sure someone with better PS skills maybe able to save it in PP though.

Which is why I'm fond of the "hockeystick" curves, but still I don't hesitate to just clip the ends if the detail is insignificant. Also, if you're familiar with the characteristics of your raw converter (eg C1) you can take advantage of EC to soften the blow at one end while still increasing contrast, combined with a levels set at the other end (and hockey stick if necessary). Tonality is everything, even in color, and often overlooked or simplistically treated. Setting the BP and WP, sometimes aggressively, is a good starting point and often all that is needed.

- DL

 

[Gary Ayala]

I wonder what you mean by this Tom?

Am I understanding that you seek a very high contrast image. If you say "that something has to be definately black and something has to be definately white. That's it", then where are the tones in between?

Asher

Being an old film guy (resentful of the term old - lol) I learned/instructed to try and get an entire tonal range spectrum in each B&W print (Adams had 10 Zones for example) ... and at a minimum get a true black and as many remaining zones/tones as possible (of course these are general terms and attainment goals ... each photo has its own particular requirements). In B&W a black is almost mandatory for an image not to be considered "muddy".

Tom has inceased the viewing tension of his homeless by (among other techniques) removing color and adding contrast. A style well suited, in my opinion, for his street people images. Not only are his photos reflective of people on the extreme of US society, but the images themselves are on the edge of what most consider "good" photography ... which, in this rare case, seems to add to the photo than substract.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Thanks Gary for that clarification.

IOW, you use black, in a way that music uses the low notes of the base player, to put in a reference from which say the pitch of the saxophone or singer's voice is measured.

Black, I understand. But what if white is missing?

How white can white not be before it hurts a B&W picture?

Asher

 

[Gary Ayala]

Thanks Gary for that clarification.

IOW, you use black, in a way that music uses the low notes of the base player, to put in a reference from which say the pitch of the saxophone or singer's voice is measured.

Black, I understand. But what if white is missing?

How white can white not be before it hurts a B&W picture?

Asher

Each image stands on its own merit and I am speaking in generalities. In generalities, the more gray tones one has in a photo ... equates to a technically superior photograph, which in turn further equates to a mastery of the craft. Mastery of the technical aspects of the photography does not make one a "master photographer" but rather one who is a master technician.

At this time, you are probably thinking of photos you've seen or a photo you can take that doesn't have a white or a black ... but those images are the exception. Back in the film-only days, photography was a lot less technical and more individualistic/artistic. It took time to develop the skill to consistantly obtain 7, 8. 9, 10 tonal zones in your photographs. Unlike post processing programs, B&W paper came in only four (if I remember correctly) contrasts (one being low, four being high and two being normal). So the capability to consistancy reflect 10 zones with only four choices of contrast was a matter of great skill.

And, it seems that the same Ansel Adams 10 tonal zones developed for B&W film and paper still make for a superior B&W digital image.

To answer the question of how "white can white not be before it hurts a B&W photo" ... that is judged on a case by case, photo by photo basis.

After a certain level of profeciency, one's photography should be an attainment/triumph to please one's own soul. If others appreciate the image ... then so much the better, but if the image only pleases you ... there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

I once was sipping some wine with a famous California vintner, Robert Mondavi. It was a hot summer day, similar to today, I noticed that he slipped an ice cube into his glass of Cabernet. Many at table gasped that such a wine connoisseur could do such an evil act. He looked at the shocked faces, smiled and said "... that's how I like it."

Photography, like wine, should be made to satisfy the tastes of the creator (but, remember that Cabernet still had all the elements required of a great wine with or without ice).

 

[Asher Kelman]

Thanks tom and Gary for your answers.

I was thinking in terms of the physiology. I guess my answer will come from testing a given file printing on papers of different brightness..

Asher

 

[Tom Yi]

Asher,
Any thoughts about getting the grip?
BTW, Gary is my shooting buddy. He used to be a PJ with LA Times. Good guy all around.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Hi Tom,

The battery power is a non-issue. I have always changed batteries in between sections of events. So, the extra battery power of the grip is of no special value. Can one use the grip without the batteries in it? The advantage I could see is balance if I was tracking runners or birds or game.

Asher

 

[Ben Lifson]

Black Blacks White Whites and Mid Tones

There is no such thing as a correct print, a correct tonal range, a correct gradation of tones, a correct black, a correct white. There is only the expressive print, the one that works.

The French photographer Eugene Atget (1857-1927)'s 30-year career (1897-1927) is one of the most intense explorations of the expressive powers of blacks and whites in the history of photography and is well worth the study of anyone concerned with this matter. A first-hand account of how Atget developed his negatives, given by one of his close friends, is instructive.

Atget used glass plate orthochromatic negatives that had very low sensitivity to red light & so developed them with the aid of a dim red safe light. The story is that after proper agitation for mid-tones, using the safe light for occasional inspection, he would let the negatives sit at the bottom of the tray for very long periods of time in order to block up the highlights and let halation occur -- see especially his pictures of trees with sunlight coming in through the foliage and eating away, as it were, at the leaves. The friend who gave us this account said that when he, the friend, would visit Atget and they would sit and talk over tea or wine, Atget would occasionally excuses himself and go into his darkroom to see if his highlights were dense enough.

Bill Brandt's photographs of British life high and low, and of nudes, are distinguished in part by Brandt's virtuosic handling of contrast.

The German photographer August Sander's portraiture of the 1930s is one of the most intense explorations of mid-tones in photography.

Robert Frank's "The Americans" (1958) is, among other things, a virtuosic and near-encyclopedic compilation of the various tonal effects achievable with black/white film and small cameras.

There are no rules.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Ben,

For a moment, you took me back into my father-in-law's darkroom, agitating and then going out to watch the fish jumping and then return to see how his negatives were cooking.

I loved that time and the bond between us as we watched magic appear.

I still wonder, from the physiological point of view, what are the characteristics of tonal spread that our brains find so wonderful. What are the signals by which our brains retune for each style of printing.

From the physiological standpoint, there must be rules. Intuitively, or by experience, the great photographers must have tapped into this..

While there may not be rules you can deliver like the ten commandments, the brain still works with it's rules made for us to be safe and happy and understand what's around us.

Your reference are helpful. Some favorite books would be wonderful.

Asher

 

[Tom Yi]

Back to the original topic,
Roger, any pics from your first try at street shooting?

 

[Roger Lambert]

Back to the original topic,
Roger, any pics from your first try at street shooting?

Oh dear.

They are pretty bad.

I'll post a few... but no snickering emoticons, OK?


Face of bigotry:

Tiara:

Social Anxiety:

 

[Asher Kelman]

For the moment Just the 3rd picture, Roger.

I like that it is in B&W devoid of distracting color. It is stark but not desolate. The building is in pretty good conditon but the wood of the windows is un protected and the paint appears to be old and gone.

The man is alone, staring out the window, from about 6 feet from it as we only see his head. The sun appears to be high, indicating probably the middle of the day. The tree is full of foliage. The sun makes the leaves sparkle.

That one person makes the building a container for humanity.

Is it art?

Well, I wouldn't get out of bed at 4 am to look it again, however, it is interesting and that is a start.

Asher

 

[Roger Lambert]

Well, I wouldn't get out of bed at 4 am to look it again....

Well. That is the difference, then, between you and I Asher, for I don't think I would get out of a handily-situated easy chair at four o'clock in the afternoon to take another look at that one, either, myself.

Best regards,

Roger

 

[Asher Kelman]

Roger,

I was referring to the feeling one has when one makes that special print that you were trying so hard to achieve. This makes me get up at 4 a.m. to have another look and get another dose of gratification!

Asher

 

[Asher Kelman]

Roger,

The first image, "Face of Bigotry", captures for a moment the characters, each in their own thoughts, isolated from each other.

I hadn't recognized that that the man in the foreground was probably Black. Even now, I wonder whether you have just captured a transient grimace of the man passing. (Maybe you saw more than is shown here?)

The facing chairs cut by two vertical poles, make a signal that the man reading is not to be disturbed and inhibits anyone asking as when the chairs would be arraigned open and inviting.

The chain by the reading man's table, delineates a zone of privacy. This whole area in fact, is a kind of "semi-private social zome" that the passing man has to penetrate and traverse.

A movement of his head, sweeping the area for danger, evaluating the area for any danger, is IMHO, something we all do without knowing, thousands of times a day.

We do it driving, looking for children about to run out from behind a car, we do it going to a car in a dark parking lot.

Still, the image captures such a lot of how we live close to each other and so separate.

Asher

 

[Tom Yi]

Thanks for posting. Takes guts to put up your images for critiques and comments.
First thing I noticed is that the shots/subjects feel a bit too centered for me.
I'd say try a bit less centered composition, go back and try and try again. That's what I do.
Happy shooting.

 

[Roger Lambert]

Thanks for posting. Takes guts to put up your images for critiques and comments.
Happy shooting.

It wasn't as painful as I thought it would be!

You know, I recognize the fact that I will always be a student of the craft. And likely never be as accomplished as many of the staff, or contributors such as yourself, and others, here.

Plus, this genre is completely new to me. This shoot is literally my first, took an hour, and was with my wife. So I was expected to keep up my side of a conversation as well. ( insert wife joke here)

We traveled no more than 200 feet down a pedestrian mall in the heart of the most affluent city in the state, in the middle of the afternoon. So, perhaps not as rife with possibility as Rangoon or Paris, but I'll bet you could have come away some brilliant shots.

Anyway, never once did I stand before a scene with the rare excitement one gets when you "know" you have something special in front of you. So, I have no emotional ties to these shots. They don't connect with me, either!

All I have is the sense of gratitude that such accomplished photographers such as Asher and yourself would even bother to comment on them. I appreciate it very much

And so....

Unlike the Vogon Starfleet Commander, who would read you even more of his horrible poetry, to punish you for saying nice things about his horrible poetry, I will refrain from posting another photograph from the series.

( too bad - it was the classic archetypal lonely, grizzled older man sitting next to a garbage can, looking dejectedly out, as,in blurred DOF, people either walked by or had their backs to him. you would have lov..)

 

[Roger Lambert]

Roger,

The first image, "Face of Bigotry", captures for a moment the characters, each in their own thoughts, isolated from each other.

I hadn't recognized that that the man in the foreground was probably Black. Even now, I wonder whether you have just captured a transient grimace of the man passing. (Maybe you saw more than is shown here?)

Asher

I was actually intrigued by the man inside the restaurant whose face you cannot see well in the photo, as I processed the picture to emphasise the pedestrian after discovering his facial expression.

And you may well be correct about the man's intentions, Asher, as I am likely not an unbiased observer here.

The scowler bears an uncanny resemblance to a relative of my wife who molested her as a child, so I am inclined not to give the stranger the benefit of the doubt.

Nevertheless, that looks like a scowl, and this IS Burlington, VT. Burlington is one of the least integrated cities in the country. When I see an older white gentlemen making that face at a younger black gentleman, when he knows he isn't being seen making that face, I really do tend to believe it is a scowl.

Notice that he has moved his head a good thirty degees to the left of his travel path to stare directly at the young man. It shocked me quite a bit.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Roger,

The key to your photography is the impulse and the hunting that get's you a vision. It can even be exciting and get you an adrenaline rush. That vision is what is needed before the shutter is present. The rest is practice and looking at the resultant image and seeing if your reception is close to what got you to press the shutter in the first place.

If it passes that test, you keep the picture. Eventually you should read the DAM book and iviewmedia Pro to get a rating, pruning and archiving system for all these files!!

Asher