The (DMF) world as we know it..

[leonardobarreto.com]

WORLD AS WE KNOW IT..

.. may be ending soon? well, at least that is the topic of the day in photography forums on the world wide web. May be the announcement of the One-D-s-Mark-3. Medium format owners are being reduced to a "green zone" where "only we can have" 16bits and "the 3D effect"

My back has worked flawlessly for a year now and I'm happy that only spent 14k for a 63mb file/per shot back, and I traded my RZ and some view camera optics for a set of 4 AF Mamiya lenses. But some may have spent $40k for a similar set up !

I think that the decision -in my case- to go MF is yet a valid one, I have some small advantages.

The new Canon will be $8k, I paid $14 (advantage: bragging to client /disadvantage: maxed up cc)
I can mount the back on a view camera (the Canon has PC lenses available)
View Finder is larger (twice the size of Mk3, just comfort advantage)
Super reliable thetered shooting (Canon may be not the best for this)
16 bits and 3D effect (difficult to metrix this, but sounds good to have)
PhaseOne C1 software (nice)

Better resolving power of MF Mamiya optics (to be compared after the release of Mk3)

Available back that are more than 22mp for future upgrades

ah I almost forgot: the sensel size in the P 25 is much larger than that of the Canon (even larger than that in a PhaseOne P45 etc) That may count for something. After all some point and shoot have 10MP pixel count, no?

ok, I feel better now

 

[nicolas claris]

Hi Leonardo

PhaseOne C1 software (nice)

nice for 1DS Mk3 also!

 

[Eric Hiss]

Tell us what you bought

Hi Leonard,
I'm with you....just bought a Rollei 6008 AF and a db20p (phase p20) - got both used for $9k total with some extras like a 45deg and WLF. Camera hasn't arrived yet, but I am looking forward to it. I like it that I can also shoot film if I want (but probably won't). I also have a 5D and Leica DMR in my kit right now. I will probably sell one of the three cameras soon.

One thing you could add to your comparison tests is good glass. After having shot the Leica my eyes were open to what good lenses can do. There are many great lenses for MF and Canon will have to develop some new ones in the wide angles to get everything from the sensor.

If you have been following some of the threads on the Lum Landscape MF forum you'll know everyone is wondering about the 1DsIII but I am not. I tested the DR of the 1DIII when it came out a few months back and found my Leica DMR still had a 1.5 stop DR advantage and I believe the most MF backs have at least .5 stops on my DMR so doing the math, current MFDB will have about 2 stops DR real advantage over the Canon. Of course I have been wrong before and this only will apply to base ISO settings. I'm sure the canon will eat up MFDB's at ISO 800 and over. But if you shoot studio like I do this is not a problem.
Regards,
Eric

 

[leonardobarreto.com]

Eric,

The posts in LL forum are furious with the topic, it will be a classic like PC vs Mac or Canon and Nikon.

I like what I have, I would say that it would be a noble -- as in a noble horse -- camera/back combination if it was not a machine.

People always want to take the short cut -me included- and want to be able to point the way to the other guys -me too-, but some times there is no better way, or. Other factors are more important, like to be consistent, or to have a consistent preference.

With the Mamiya I can go in and out intuitively, the system is minimalists (even the notorious LCD was originally designed small and dark to save battery power and maintain the back cool with no fans) has almost no moving parts and uses FIREWIRE power. (the P25 runs on juice from my portable Mac, and the Mamiya body on 6 alkaline batteries)

Then there is the size of the sensor in relation to the the millions of pixels. The P25 has about two times the realstate of a Canon FF, so that means that they have to shrink the sensels to half the size.

With half size sensor wells you have to run in to problems "collecting" photons in a given time frame.

In the numbers the new canon looks impressive: a digitalback-killer at a bargain price...

So now there is only one thing to do... wait and see...

 

[Eric Hiss]

Yeah the last few days the MF posts have really been crazy. Since I've never shot MF before, I've no experience to add and stayed out of the mix. I'm hoping that the MF forum here on OPF will have some open discussion not about which is better but what works and what doesn't.

I think my choice of the Rollei system makes me an odd duck especially since its not too popular here compared to Hasselblad or Mamiya. I was attracted to it because it offers a 1/1000 sync speed on some lenses and has both AF and TTL metering. Should have my camera tomorrow so I'll soon know how I like it.

I think my p20 back has the same sensor as yours only its square and a little smaller. I'm really excited to shoot tethered. I think this will help me in image composition and adjusting my lighting quite a bit.

Eric

 

[leonardobarreto.com]

The Rollei and P20 combination is very good for people photography, you get more out of your teles and can shoot fast with the classic square. On the other side you may run in to problems with the wide angle side of things, but depends on what you shoot. Definitively is one of the fastest system with flash.

 

[Eric Hiss]

I'm working mostly with people but also do a lot of macro .... So hopefully you're right and I won't need anything too wide, because with the 1.5 crop factor, I think I'm going to be in trouble. I believe the widest lens for the Rollei is a 40mm and its not cheap! If I like the rollei, then I'll have to figure out how to get some tilt/shift going (for the least amount of money). I currently use the zork MFS on my Leica/DMR and 100 apo macro for macro work.

 

[Ben Rubinstein]

Luminous landscape is getting interesting on the point is it not!

I handled the 1Ds mkIII today, if you don't need that little bit extra the AF is to kill for! Certainly a great location camera vs a static low iso studio setup.

Many if not most MFDB users seems to have a 5D for backup, I'm wondering if that will be replaced by the new 1Ds mkIII with it's 'almost' quality. I can't see that any serious commercial photographer will be able to work with just one format anyway unless they work with one speciality only such as product photography in studio.

 

[leonardobarreto.com]

Some people don't need AF, I use mine off but check focus inside the view finder with the "< 0 >" green lights. It is very useful even to know what direction to rotate the ring, and then when it gets to the "0" you are safe. Of course I shoot artwork in studio location with Totas or flash at ISO 100 or 50. I also don't need a larger LCD because a have a 15inch one on my portable computer (I shoot mostly tethered) I don't need weather seals, or high speed motor drives, or zoom lenses.

It would be nice to have another P back as back up, and an extra Mamiya body maybe, but the only problem I have encounter so far is to run out of alkaline batteries for the body (6 AA).

Since I am a Nikon guy (Nikon-Mamiya-Sinar-Graflex-Mac) I could entertain the idea of this toy instead of the 5D///

 

[Eric Hiss]

I'm looking at the new nikons too, but mostly out of curiosity. I started film with an nikon while in college but ended up with canon when I went to digital. Last year a friend lent me his nikon for a shoot and I was really impressed by the color which in my opinion was much better than canon and the user interface was nice. So these new nikons might be really worth looking at. But I hope I love my Rollei enough not to worry about it.

 

[Ken Doo]

It would be nice to have another P back as back up, and an extra Mamiya body maybe, but the only problem I have encounter so far is to run out of alkaline batteries for the body (6 AA).

If you're referring to the Mamiya 645 AF/AFD/AFDII's uncanny ability to "eat" alkaline batteries----try shifting to Energizer's LITHIUM AA batteries. These last substantially longer. And the weight savings is a nice bonus. Around US$10 for four batteries.

ken

 

[leonardobarreto.com]

Ken, I think that the camera has be be turned OFF at the end of the day, otherwise the usage is normal. But I thank you for the information definitively is good to have more juice. The best would be to have some sort of rechargeable alternative...

If I was Mamiya I would get the AFD to run on Canon type rechargeable batteries and make the left side that has almost no buttons and is flat to have a second standard tripod mount for shooting portrait. That would make the camera more robust on that side (there is a thin knob that looks a bit fragile) and also other accessories could be screwed there like a flash gun, or a left hand handle etc.

After done that --remember, I'm being Mamiya-- I come up with the Mamiya 6 (in 645 size) that accepts a digital back ! It would be a Leica with a P 45. What a nice point and shoot. After that the only remaining project for me as Mamiya would be a flexbody that would use RB/RZ lenses that are all leaf shutter and have a huge image circle (compared to a 645 back) and make a small module for shooting with live preview and Computer Aided Live Focusing....

 

[victor gogolak]

I have not been here for a while, actually quite swamped- BUT I find it hard to believe ths doomsday MF feeling.

Maybe I should rephrase the ; the "the death of NON dSLR, non-135 format as we knew it"

I do wait for an R10, because there are times my Leica glass is important.
However, I recently invested in an Alpa TC, and ONE APO-Digitar. Incredibly SMALL and the GLASS!

I spend a wekend with 500 shots from my Contax 645+. the GLASS

I lent a Hartblei 'super rotator to a friend.

In would never consider DSLR for many situatioons, and I look at recent 1DsMkIII images on my 2 30" and those images stll look like wallpapaer compared to the 'least 3D" of my MF images (can almost 'reach in"

I think the 1-1 comparisons miss the point. Step back. look at what you do WITH MFDB ( not what they can do FOR you) and I think you may come to a less apocalyptic conclusion.

Regards
Victor

 

[Asher Kelman]

I have not been here for a while, actually quite swamped- BUT I find it hard to believe ths doomsday MF feeling.

We're going through a die-out period. This is the Konica-Minolta-Bronica phase of MF. However we have some pretty strong platforms that will be resilient and I believep prosper.

First Hasselblad with their brand protective integrated approach shows vision and provides the professional well paid photographer with a turn-key system. Further, the algorithms of the firmware is keyed to each lens to make corrections for color and CA and vignetting. Also there is an exclusive 28 mm lens.

Sinar-Rollei (China, Japan and the rest of Asia only) and Leaf-Kodak hare the same new Hy6 body, but with no 28 mm lens. However, I expect that will be remedied. This camera has the advantage that all the backs, according to my discussion with the local agent, will mate with the single body (which is branded according to the MFR of the back.

There's a problem for Leaf that who only have a deal to use the Hy6 for 2 years!!!!!!!!!!!!! and then???

Then there's Phase One with no body of its own save the remaining Contax and Mamiya bodies.

Mamiya would seems to be a good marriage partner for Phase since they have very special loenses, the new 28 mm lens and a great body. The latter is always a good thing!! However, Mamiya has its own ZD and no doubt a ZDII by now in the works. They are also may be foolish enough to not push for a deal and so not survive. Unfortunately, Phase is probably not big enough to buy Mamiya. If I were them, I'd buy enough bodies to be sure to have bodies to go with their backs. But then they would be competing with Leaf! Leaf is really Kodak no and perhaps leaf would make the deal with Mamiya.

Now one thing that unites Pentax, Mamiya and Sinar is their slow speed in ramping up production. Sinar is still behind and will have, it seems only 60 bodies worldwide by the end of the year. These will be sold mostly to dealers for rental in kits.

That is really sad for this MF life struggle since the 1DsIII is likely to gobble up prospective customers who are fed up with promises by Pentax, Mamiya and no Sinar and might just go for 14 BIT and predictive rather than 3D and questionable.

The final thing is that Canon or Nikon could drop the other shoe and come out with a modern MF system say for $14,000 which totally decimates the MF market.

That would be the new flagsghip! The new lenses could be used with an adpater for the Eos system!

Asher

 

[Asher Kelman]

I have not been here for a while, actually quite swamped- BUT I find it hard to believe ths doomsday MF feeling.

We're going through a die-out period. This is the Konica-Minolta-Bronica phase of MF. However we have some pretty strong platforms that will be resilient and I believep prosper.

First Hasselblad with their brand protective integrated approach shows vision and provides the professional well paid photographer with a turn-key system. Further, the algorithms of the firmware is keyed to each lens to make corrections for color and CA and vignetting. Also there is an exclusive 28 mm lens.

Sinar-Rollei (China, Japan and the rest of Asia only) and Leaf-Kodak hare the same new Hy6 body, but with no 28 mm lens. However, I expect that will be remedied. This camera has the advantage that all the backs, according to my discussion with the local agent, will mate with the single body (which is branded according to the MFR of the back.

There's a problem for Leaf that who only have a deal to use the Hy6 for 2 years!!!!!!!!!!!!! and then???

Then there's Phase One with no body of its own save the remaining Contax and Mamiya bodies.

Mamiya would seems to be a good marriage partner for Phase since they have very special loenses, the new 28 mm lens and a great body. The latter is always a good thing!! However, Mamiya has its own ZD and no doubt a ZDII by now in the works. They are also may be foolish enough to not push for a deal and so not survive. Unfortunately, Phase is probably not big enough to buy Mamiya. If I were them, I'd buy enough bodies to be sure to have bodies to go with their backs. But then they would be competing with Leaf! Leaf is really Kodak no and perhaps leaf would make the deal with Mamiya.

Now one thing that unites Pentax, Mamiya and Sinar is their slow speed in ramping up production. Sinar is still behind and will have, it seems only 60 bodies worldwide by the end of the year. These will be sold mostly to dealers for rental in kits.

That is really sad for this MF life struggle since the 1DsIII is likely to gobble up prospective customers who are fed up with promises by Pentax, Mamiya and no Sinar and might just go for 14 BIT and predictive rather than 3D and questionable.


Asher