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My World: The Holy Kabaa

fahim mohammed

Well-known member
Photo taken a day ago on the iPhone...

p695268755.jpg

It is a cube. Muslims face the Holy Kabaa when they pray. From anywhere in the world.

This is the birthplace of Prophet Mohammed ( PBUH ). He walked in this same place and the city of Makkah.

I shall explain the two hills and Zam Zam Spring a little later.

It is time for morning prayers and the fast to start.

Regards.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
This is an amazing sight! I'd love to visit myself! Probably not permitted. So I have to enjoy this through your eyes.

Asher
 

fahim mohammed

Well-known member
For a satellite image of the Holy Mosque and the Holy Kabaa..

p536293442.jpg

In the Center ( #1 ) is the Holy Kabaa.

The two hills ( Al-Safa and Al-Marwa ) and the path on which ran Hajar is marked #2

The image shows the vast number of worshippers. There are at least two stories also holding worshippers all around.. You see the terrace.

The Station of Ibrahim ( PBUH ) is very very close to the Holy Kabaa.

Satellite image courtesy of OMGshots.com and is used for educational and informative purposes only.

The iPhone image is taken from the first floor and the Spring of ZamZam is below and hidden from view.
The Safa and Marwa are further back.

p.s I shall point out the Well of ZamZam, as I am not sure on this aerial image right now.
 

fahim mohammed

Well-known member
One of the mechanized chairs for even obese people!!

p56041185.jpg

She is my wife's sister-in-law praying on the first floor of the Holy Mosque facing the Holy Kabaa.
 

fahim mohammed

Well-known member
This is an amazing sight! I'd love to visit myself! Probably not permitted. So I have to enjoy this through your eyes.

Asher

Thanks Asher. Strange about photos inside the Grand Mosque ( or any mosque really but more so in Makkah ). I visit Makkah for worship and prayers. Photography is never on my mind.!!

Regards.
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
I'd love to visit myself! Probably not permitted.

Indeed, the grounds are only open to muslims. This is also the case in many mosques. To the best of my knowledge, Islam is the only major religion which does so. Traveling abroad I was able to visit churches, buddhist, hindu or chinese temples, but mosques were almost always closed to non-muslims.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Indeed, the grounds are only open to muslims. This is also the case in many mosques. To the best of my knowledge, Islam is the only major religion which does so. Traveling abroad I was able to visit churches, buddhist, hindu or chinese temples, but mosques were almost always closed to non-muslims.

Except in Istanbul! I was able to vist mosques there! Just had to take of my shoes first.
 

fahim mohammed

Well-known member
Except in Istanbul! I was able to vist mosques there! Just had to take of my shoes first.

Thank you Asher for that information. It is important, as I shall mention below following.

There are only two ( 2 ) Mosques in Islam in which non-muslims are not allowed.

1. The Grand Mosque in Makkah. Additionally, there is a perimeter around the Holy city Of Makkah
which non-muslims are not allowed to cross.

2. The Mosque of the Prophet Mohammed ( PBUH ), in the city of Madinah, in which non-muslims are not allowed.

Other than the two places mentioned above, there are no religious edicts forbidding the entry of non-muslims in the mosques if modestly dressed and respecting the sanctity of the mosque.

If one states that any other mosque/place ( other than the two mentioned above ) is closed to non-muslims, I would request authenticated religious proof of such a restriction based on the Holy Quran or the sayings of Prophet Mohammed ( PBUH ).

Asher, I checked on the location of the Well of ZamZam. What I thought!! The entrance has indeed been moved to another place as it was causing a bottleneck and proved an obstacle to the free movement of worshippers within the Grand Mosque.

Kind regards.
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
Other than the two places mentioned above, there are no religious edicts forbidding the entry of non-muslims in the mosques if modestly dressed and respecting the sanctity of the mosque.

I did not say that there was a religious edict forbidding the entry to non-muslims. I am just stating what I saw many times as a traveller: mosques with a sign "no admittance to non-muslims". The last ones were in Singapore and Malaysia. I could probably dig a picture if you don't believe me, but I am not in proximity of that data for the moment.

If one states that any other mosque/place ( other than the two mentioned above ) is closed to non-muslims, I would request authenticated religious proof of such a restriction based on the Holy Quran or the sayings of Prophet Mohammed ( PBUH ).

I would believe that a mosque, just as a church or temple, is a private building. The owner can prohibit entrance to whomever he so wishes.

Except in Istanbul! I was able to visit mosques there! Just had to take of my shoes first.

I have never been to Istanbul, but I know that Mustafa Kemal Atatürk made the Great Mosque / Church of Hagia Sophia to a museum. I also remember that Pope Benedict XVI prayed at Sultanahmet Camii (the Blue Mosque) in 2006, so that one is also obviously open to non-muslims. I would imagine that there are more mosques open to non-muslims in Turkey.

I was allowed to enter a mosque in Xi'an (西安), China.
 

fahim mohammed

Well-known member
Jerome, I really do not want to argue this point with you or anyone else. As I do not expect you to be
well versed in the Islamic faith; just as I am not well versed in other faiths.

Nobody owns a mosque like a house or a business premises. Except for the two mosques I mentioned previously, No one is forbidden to enter a mosque, if properly attired and in accord so as not to violate the sanctity of that place.

If there was a mosque that had a sign proclaiming ' no entry to non-muslims ' it is wrong. In any case people might be queing with proofs that they were Muslims before being granted entry!! Something does not make sense here. How else would they determine that I was a Muslim or not.

Misinformation dissemination based on insufficient or erroneous knowledge is rampant with regards to Islam. What you state is open to challenge by any Muslim.

If you can provide me with proof of what you say, and the mosque you mention has been constructed by people that proclaim that there is no God But Allah and that Mohammed ( PBUH ) is His last and final Prophet; I shall personally take it upon myself to take up this matter with the relevant authorities concerned till that sign is removed and never to be hung/placed again.
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
It is certainly not my intent to discuss faith and beliefs on this forum and if you say that it is against the beliefs of Islam to put a sign proclaiming "no entry to non-muslims" at the entrance of a mosque I am willing to believe you. However, my personal experience when traveling has been that these prohibitions were frequent. Often, they take the form of a person at the entrance refusing entry to anyone looking like a tourist and may therefore not be obvious to you. In at least one instance there was indeed a sign and I took a picture of it, which I will post here at the beginning of September, when I'll have access to my data.
 

fahim mohammed

Well-known member
My previous post stands with regard to entrance to mosques.

You quoted Singapore and Malaysia. These are two different places/countries. You must then have 2 separate proofs of 2 individual mosques in two different countries.

Also, I do not understand what you mean by ' looking like a tourist '? What does a tourist look like?

I persist here on this issue as it relates to misinformation regarding a certain specific practice related to Islam; to forbid non-muslims entering a mosque.

I have also requested authenticated proof of such a ruling based on the Holy Quran or the Hadith ( sayings ) of Prophet Mohammed ( PBUH ). If such proof is not/cannot be provided then please do not ascribe a practice you might have found in a specific instance or two as authorized by the Islamic faith.

Asher has mentioned Turkey. A lot of forum members live in the US. Quite a few in the UK. People have visited India. Let them go to a mosque in their respective countries respecting the dress code and sanctity of the mosque. Let's see what they experience. The same in Germany or France.

I am personally willing to accompany any non-muslim acquaintance one has in Saudi Arabia and take him to visit any mosque of his choosing. ( Minus the two mosques already mentioned ). My wife shall gladly do the same for any female non-muslim guest in my country.

Regards.
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
All I know is that from where I sit, the azimuth of the Quibla (great circle premise, WGS-84 ellipsoid basis) is approximately 42.673°.

I am of course not qualified to suggest which premise and basis would be appropriate for actual observance.

Best regards,

Doug
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
It is a cube.
Not even close. Very nearly a parallelepiped, though.

Muslims face the Holy Kabaa when they pray. From anywhere in the world.

Is the qibla reckoned on a great circle basis, or a rhumb line basis, or something else? It makes a gigantic difference when you are at a substantial distance.

The mathematical definition of "direction" on a sphere favors the great circle basis. The homilies about shadows at the instants of the solar zenith at the Kabaa is also consistent with this interpretation.

This figure illustrates the difference from right where I am now.

Qibla_406_01.gif


The red line shows the azimuth of departure of the great circle route to the Kabaa, the blue line shows the azimuth of the rhumb line route.

The praying figure icon is not meant to be representative of any person, living or dead.

Best regards,

Doug
 

fahim mohammed

Well-known member
All I know is that from where I sit, the azimuth of the Quibla (great circle premise, WGS-84 ellipsoid basis) is approximately 42.673°.

I am of course not qualified to suggest which premise and basis would be appropriate for actual observance.

Best regards,

Doug

All I know is that for a Muslim to pray, his intention is to offer his prayers only for Allah. That his intention is to turn his face towards the direction of the Holy Kabaa ( The Qibla ). That he makes the best judgement of the direction of the Qibla to the best of his knowledge. And using whatever means he/she has at his/her disposable to determine the direction of the Qibla.

Paraphrasing the Holy Quran; ' We have made Islam easy for you to follow and not be a burden unto you'.
 

fahim mohammed

Well-known member
Not even close. Very nearly a parallelepiped, though.



Is the qibla reckoned on a great circle basis, or a rhumb line basis, or something else? It makes a gigantic difference when you are at a substantial distance.

The mathematical definition of "direction" on a sphere favors the great circle basis. The homilies about shadows at the instants of the solar zenith at the Kabaa is also consistent with this interpretation.

This figure illustrates the difference from right where I am now.

Qibla_406_01.gif


The red line shows the azimuth of departure of the great circle route to the Kabaa, the blue line shows the azimuth of the rhumb line route.

The praying figure icon is not meant to be representative of any person, living or dead.

Best regards,

Doug

Doug, if you want to persist, please see the meaning of the word Kabaa in Arabic.

The Holy Kabaa is considered roughly to be in the shape of a cube.

In any case if your intention is only to prove me wrong and gain some bonus points, I have no further thing to add.

I suggest you put these calculations in your detailed texts.

Ok Sir, you are a better scientist, mathematician, and engineer than me. Happy.

Regards.
 

fahim mohammed

Well-known member
We appear not to understand each other. I am not stating anything about your faith but about my experience as a tourist.

Anyway, a simple google search turns some images of signs at the entrance of mosques:

Jerome I shall repeat what I said...

" If you can provide me with proof of what you say, and the mosque you mention has been constructed by people that proclaim that there is no God But Allah and that Mohammed ( PBUH ) is His last and final Prophet; I shall personally take it upon myself to take up this matter with the relevant authorities concerned till that sign is removed and never to be hung/placed again. "

If they meet the condition that I have mentione in my quote above, then they are wrong in their practice.

The one you photographed, if you provide me the place, I shall take up the matter personally.

I am not willing to investigate or correct every single wrong practice in his regard.

Regards.

p.s I checked the images posted again. One clearly shows the time for non-muslim visitors.
Another url, tells me that non-muslim tourists were banned after one ran amok with a camera. They however offer guided tours.
 

fahim mohammed

Well-known member
Hi Doug,

Notwithstanding your gratuitous thesis on measurements, I am attaching the following:


"It is called Kaaba because it is roughly the shape of a cube- rectangular box structure. It is also known as ’The Ancient House’ because it dates back to the time of the Prophet Abraham. It is a sacred place where sins must not be committed. It was said that the Kaaba was erected by angels, and renovated by Adam, peace be upon him, and his sons. Prophet Mohammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, said that Noah and Hud passed by Asfan Valley on their way to Makkah to perform Hajj (pilgrimage). It is widely known that Noah and Hud were sent before Prophet Abraham, peace be upon him. When the flood took place in the era of Prophet Noah, the Kaaba was destroyed and its bases were buried underneath sand and gravel. Allah the Almighty says in the Holy Qur’an, “And [mention] when Abraham was raising the foundations of the House and [with him] Ishmael, [saying], "Our Lord, accept [this] from us. Indeed You are the Hearing, the Knowing” [2:127]. This verse makes it abundantly clear that Abraham did not lay down the foundations of the Kaaba but, rather, he was the one who erected it.

According to Al-Azraqi, Abraham, peace be upon him, erected the Kaaba in a way that made it stand 4 meters high with the side between the Black Stone and the Yemeni Corner measuring 11 meters long, and the sides between the Black Stone and the Iraqi corner measuring 15 meters long, It had two open doors and no roof on top. The Archangel Gabriel brought down the Black Stone and handed it to Abraham who set it in its place. The four corners of the Kaaba roughly face the four cardinal directions of the compass. To the eastern corner of the Kaaba lays the Black Stone, the Yemeni Corner lays to the south, the Iraqi corner to the north, and the Levantine corner to the west.

The Kaaba was restored and renovated by the Amaleks, followed by Jurham, then Qusai bin Kilab, the grandfather of Prophet Mohammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him. Five years before the revelation of Prophet Mohammad, peace and blessing of Allah be upon him, the draperies on the outer wall of the Kaaba caught fire and part of the Kaaba was destroyed by severe rain. Quraish, Prophet Mohammad’s tribe, decide to demolish and rebuild it with money earned through legal means only, i.e. ill-gotten money should not go towards renovating and rebuilding the Kaaba. Quraish made some changes to the Kaaba’s structure – they increased the height by 18 cubits, built a wood roof, decreased the width by 6 cubits, and built only one door so that they could allow whoever they wanted to go inside. After renovations were finished, a feud broke out among the tribes over who would get the honor of setting the Black Stone in its place. Prophet Mohammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, placed a sheet of cloth on the ground, put the stone on it, and asked leaders of each tribe to lift the cloth together. Then he himself placed the stone in its proper place.

Abdullah ibn Al-Zubayr heard his aunt Aisha say that Prophet Mohammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, told her, “O Aisha! Had it not been for the fact that your people have recently embraced Islam, I would have ordered them to demolish the Kaaba and I would have included it in the portion which had been left, and would have made it at a level with the ground and would have built two doors for it, one towards the east and the other towards the west, and then by doing so it would have been built on the foundations laid down by Abraham.” This saying (hadith) was narrated by Sahih Bukhari and Muslim. Abdullah bin Al-Zubayr renovated and rebuilt the Kaaba on the old foundations laid down by the Prophet Abraham, peace be upon him. About 6 cubits were included in the structure, 29 cubits were added to the height, and two doors adjacent to the ground were built. When Abdullah ibn Al-Zubayr was killed, Abdul Malek bin Marwan doubted the saying Ibn Al-Zubayr heard Aisha say, and ordered Al-Hajaj to restore the Kaaba to its old structure as Quraish had it. The western door was closed, the eastern door was elevated, and Al-Hijr (explained below) was reduced by 4 cubits. When Abdul Malek knew that Ibn Zubayr did not lie, he felt great remorse and restored the Kaaba to the way Ibn Zubayr had built it.

When Harun Al-Rasheed wanted to rebuild the Kaaba the way Ibn Al-Zubayr rebuilt it, he consulted Imam Malik who said to him, “O Emir of the Believers! I entreat you not to make the Kaaba a toy in the hands of kings who will succeed you and who will want to demolish and rebuild the Kaaba just like you did. The constant demolition and rebuilding will undermine the sacredness of the Kaaba in people’s eyes.” Harun Al-Rasheed changed his mind. Ever since then, renovations and repairs have continued to take place but without making any radical changes to the overall dimensions and measurements of the Kaaba. The largest renovations and repairs took place in the year 1417 H (1996)."


Regards.
 

fahim mohammed

Well-known member
There are many scientific, mathematical and technical papers published about the direction a Muslim should face while praying. From the USA or from any other place.

Additionally the standards and methods used are also indicated with references to the Holy Quran.

The Qiblah, for people living in the Western countries is to the East, for those residing in Eastern countries is towards the west. The Qiblah for the residents of the southern countries is towards the north, and for those living in the northern countries is towards the south.

The word is Al_kabaa. ' The Kabaa '. There is no other. It is a proper noun.
The arabic word for a perfect cube is muka-ib.

To those who want to know the direction of Al-Qibla, I suggest they contact the Royal Saudi Arabian Embassy in their respective countries. They shall be happy to help you.

Regards.
 

Charlotte Thompson

Well-known member
Fahim

Hello to you

and what a conversation huh? I always look to the East for storms out of the Gulf of Mexico-
I respect whatever ways any one prays or bows or has any religious contact in this regard- I find your religion fascinating I used to study some of its aspects-

your photos are extremely well done and well imagined in the context-

Charlotte-
 

fahim mohammed

Well-known member
Charlotte, thank you for your comments.

Just was trying to share some images and put a context to them.

Got to go..news is reaching us that the earth is not flat!! I also hear that there is something new, they call it a cube.

Take care Charlotte, and my regards to the lovely kids.

p.s now to figure out where the sun sets!!
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Guys,

Fahim shares pictures that are not available for most of us to take ourselves. This, at the time of prayer and devotion, a personal tradition. We need to show basic respect for that. Religious ideas are not subject to Epicurean or Aristotle's arguments in OPF, only the pictures or else we offend. What purpose is that? Our mission is not to analyze the accuracy of religious experience or rules.

Let's look at the pictures, appreciate Fahim's spirit of sharing, however, details of the Qu'ran and rulings, although interesting and important for discussion and analysis, are hardly needed for appreciation of Fahim's pictures.

Asher
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Asher,

Let's look at the pictures, appreciate Fahim's spirit of sharing, however, details of the Qu'ran and rulings, although interesting and important for discussion and analysis, are hardly needed for appreciation of Fahim's pictures.
Well said, as far as it goes.

But if someone says, "This picture is of the largest pecan tree in the United States, with a 6.8 foot trunk", and I say, "Is that diameter or circumference?", I don't appreciate being called out of order.

And it doesn't matter if it is a holy pecan tree, or that I am not a certified arborist.

Best regards,

Doug
 

fahim mohammed

Well-known member
Thank you Asher for your comment.

I am more disappointed than offended. Because certain comments and arguments detract from the spirit in which photographs and text in his thread was posted.

We, my wife and I, love climbing mountains ( is that the correct word/description ? ). I have posted
photographs of Mt. Everest.

I have said that Mt. Everest is the highest mountain in the world. I did not qualify it by saying ' highest ' relative to what? ' highest ' measured from where to where? from which side? In summer or winter?
And so on and so forth.

I do know the relative heights of mountain summits. Or I can look it up.
But my posting photographs of Mt. Everest and calling it the ' highest ' mountain is said in a general context without specifically qualifying my statement. That would be, in my view, detract from my original intention and spirit of posting in OPF.

The discrepancy of directions of the Qibla mentioned with in this thread is very well known. There are
hundreds ( if not thousands ) of scientific papers published addressing this issue; with contributions from
NASA astrophysicists, to Ivy league Universities in the US; Canada and from all over the world.

Only a person ignorant of these studies would venture to post them anew making it appear to be
unique or something new. Someone not bothering to do the proper investigation. Unwilling to ask
question from people in their proximity.

The exact dimensions of the Al-Kabaa, as it now stands and a photograph of which was posted in this thread, is very well known. To as many decimal places as one would like.

As you correctly posted, but what purpose would it serve if I were to qualify It's dimensions to the x number of decimal places. It just detracts from the spirit in which I initiated this thread. And we do know its dimensions..exactly..measured by the latest techniques available to man.

Those that posted pointing out such differences are not the unique possessors of this knowledge. It is not earth shattering ( belief shattering ) news. To those that are ignorant it might appear that the sayings of such people represents the Second Coming.

To me it represents an attitude of someone who, unaware that others are aware, shouts..' see this guy is wrong. I can prove it by diagrams and azimuth calculations..all of you have been wrong for centuries' Such persons are content to wallop in their mistaken belief that they are the possessors of knowledge denied, and beyond the comprehension of others. All others, to them, are just hillbillies ( bedouins ). To be educated and patronized.

I am sorry that all this ' fuss' has detracted from the spirit in which I started this thread.

Thank you, and all others, for your understanding.

Kindest regards.

p.s being out of order is one thing, being ignorant of the fact that others too are in possession of the same facts for ages is downright scary.
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
In at least one instance there was indeed a sign and I took a picture of it, which I will post here at the beginning of September, when I'll have access to my data.

I am a bit sorry to resurrect this thread, but since I promised to post this picture, here it is:



On the other hand, I do not wish that anyone makes undue effort to have this sign removed:

The one you photographed, if you provide me the place, I shall take up the matter personally.
.

As a consequence, I will not post here where exactly this sign was found.

I am perfectly content to have learned that at least some muslim believers do not consider it proper practice to prohibit the entrance of their places of worship to non muslims.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Jerome and Fahim,

Can we fix the broken links as other discussions refer to this important thread so as not to repeat what has already been covered.

Much appreciated.

Asher
 
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