The new Leica M8...

[Asher Kelman]

I doubt the M9 will be out next year. I'd think we'd see firmware upgrades for a fee instead!

Asher

 

[Don Lashier]

I doubt the M9 will be out next year. I'd think we'd see firmware upgrades for a fee instead!

Asher

Asher, this was my lame attempt at a joke. I would hope that Leica would continue the tradition of a long product cycle.

- DL

 

[scott kirkpatrick]

Right. It took nice pictures as a 19mm, but that wide an angle was pretty hard to handle, so I didn't use it much, and mostly for exaggeration. The lens is very deep, so test it carefully for any interference with the M8's hardware.

scott

 

[Asher Kelman]

Asher, this was my lame attempt at a joke. I would hope that Leica would continue the tradition of a long product cycle.

- DL

Don,

You had me worried for a moment. I want the M8 but I didn't preorder because I need to see how it is to use for street photography and landscape. When I read your joke, I was in the serious mode, so I missed the humor. My fault!

Actually, if anyone did order the M8 and wanted to sell it, they would probably get a premium price for it.

Asher

 

[scott kirkpatrick]

Why intriguing? [The Canon 19mm f/3.5 rangefinder, non-reverse-telephoto lens]

I ask because I have one in the post on the way to me. It was a bit of leap in the dark and I'm not entirely sure what I'm expecting of it.

Useful 25mm equivalent on the M8

Colin

The lens is intriguing because it is a well-made unit, and a very wide angle. On the RD-1 (1.5x) it would be roughly 28 mm-e and on the M8 (1.33x) it will give a 25 mm-e FOV. BUT, it sticks pretty far into the camera, and it may not work at all. Here's the little I can find from the reviews presently available. Leica says that the collapsible Elmar 90/4 will not work at all on the M8 and warns that collapsible lenses should only be installed with the collapsible tube extended. Leica collapsible lenses have a tube with diameter roughly 32 mm in diameter. Looking into the open maw of the M8 (and the M7) in the Erwin Puts review, there is definitely stuff around the outside of the opening that I would worry about hitting, but the M7 is even tighter than the M8, so if the collapsibles worked on the M7 that is not the problem. Maybe the metal, vertical shutter is thicker than the old cloth horizontal shutter. The Elmar 90/4 when collapsed is about 19.5 mm deep, while the Summicron 50/2 is only 11.5 mm deep (that's extent behind the mount surface, eyeball measurement against a ruler). The Canon 19's rear element extends 18 mm behind the mount surface, which may get it into trouble, and certainly suggests some awesome vignetting.

But I'd love to try it out.

scott

 

[Colin Jago]

Canon 19

The Canon 19's rear element extends 18 mm behind the mount surface, which may get it into trouble, and certainly suggests some awesome vignetting.

But I'd love to try it out.

scott

When I have both camera and lens I will certainly be trying to out. I can't imagine it will be suitable for very many subjects, but if it works, I can see some interesting uses for it.

And if it doesn't it might have to earn its keep on a film camera......

In fact, as the lens will turn up tomorrow and the camera won't arrive until November, it will be earning its keep on a film body straight away.

Colin

 

[Colin Jago]

M8 lens to viewfinder conversions

I've just posted a table which converts lenses to viewfinders for both the M8 and the RD1

http://www.auspiciousdragon.net/photography/articles/photoarticle035.html

If any eagle eyed reader spots a mistake, please let me know. It does all get a bit confusing.

Colin

 

[Sean Reid]

I understand the ISO but IMO for "Leica" type shooting this is not a big issue. The shutter dial is classic on top and I assume the aperture is still on the lens. What else is there?

One spec I didn't see is the angle of the spot meter. This is important to me.

- DL

Hi Don,

As I'm sure you know, AE is widely used by professionals (myself included), even those who use cameras like the M7 or the R-D1. It has its place for photographers who remain aware of what the system is doing. It's particularly useful in fast-paced work. I watch the shutter speeds the camera is choosing and over ride them if needed, either via manual exposure or EV correction. EV correction is particularly useful when a camera is tending to consistently be under or over in a given set of lighting conditions.

The EV compensation controls on both the M7 and the DMR are well-designed. The M8 needs work and I'm talking with Leica about firmware changes that could improve this aspect.

Cheers,

Sean

 

[Sean Reid]

Where did you see that, Roger?

I couldn't find anything on actual quality except Sean saying it won't disapoint!

Asher

The best reference for now would be to look at the file quality from the DMR and imagine how that could have progressed from the release of that digital back until now. I should have a production camera to test after Photokina and will be able to report on file quality shortly afterwards.

Cheers,

Sean

 

[Sean Reid]

for several reasons. I had heard that he has a very prickly relationship with Leica, now that he is independent, and this proves it. Other reviewers have respected the NDA requirement that no images be published until the M8 firmware is more mature, but this apparently doesn't stop him. The Moire' effects that he shows look like the sort of thing that DPReview might obsess over, but ought to be easily managed by C1's Moire' routines. Puts isn't concerned either, and this certainly proves that there is no AA filter in the path. As an E-1 owner, I was intrigued by his frequent references to the E-1 as the M8's spiritual ancestor. I wonder whether the rather poor showing in the "Leica wall" vs "Canon wall" will be borne out in shots with recognizable small details or is an artifact of Canon's in-camera image processing creating texture which is not really in the original image. I look forward to reading the next article in his series.

scott

I think many people may find it interesting to think back on Erwin's comments once journalists are able to publish on the file quality of the camera. The analogous situation to consider, perhaps, is the contrast between Erwin's comments about the DMR and what photographers actually experienced when the camera was released. Without getting into detail, I'd recommend viewing much of the Puts article with a good deal of skepticism.

Cheers,

Sean

 

[Sean Reid]

Irwin Puts, at least is in a position to test the M8 from a standpoint of an experienced reviewer and rangefinder aficionado. He is pretty straightforward as is Sean Reid in his perspective. Of course, both have their tilts but so do we all.

Undeniably we have two competent reviewers interested in practical use of the M8 and how it fits into the world. Interesting that Irwin compares it to the 5D as I said above that I wouldn't be surprised if the M8 bettered the 5D with the superior Leica wide angle lenses, (in spite of the 2MP differences).

We haven't, as yet, seen such wide-angle examinations, but now I expect will.

The truth is that Leica designed the M8 to be backwards compatible with its existing film lenses. Was that a compromise?

The camera lacks full comfort grip for the right hand, (from leaving out Leica's rewind lever and no Konica type grip), by both reviewers' comments.

There's no doubt that Sean sees this as the best camera built and Irwin expresses a more conservative opinion.

We need both points of view. I respect Sean so much that I'll follow every word he writes. I like Irwin too and won’t miss his columns either.

If Sean's position is sweetened a little from an itzy bitsy flake of romanticism and his penchant for reportage with rangefinders, then we have a great protagonist.

Equally, if Irwin has traveled the bumpy road of issues with Leica's ivory tower view of design eschewing for example, ideas from Konica and other companies innovations, seems less giddy with praise, that is un-surprising too.

For sure, Sean has strength as a working photographer and that has to be given real weight.

Anyway, every fresh independent perspective helps.

I have no idea how Phil Askey will test this. Hopefully he'll hand the camera to his wife!

Asher

Hi Asher,

As I mentioned when we spoke today, I'd have to disagree on some of these points. Once the full reports on M8 file quality come out, you may want to look back to see just how straightforward Erwins comments and examples were. I actually would not argue that the M8 is the best camera ever built. It's one of my great favorites but that's a different question. Like any camera, I tried to look at the strengths and weaknesses of the M8 honestly.

Was it a mistake to make the M8 with an M-mount? I'd say not at all. To do otherwise would have been to abandon one of the best collections of lenses ever made. I'm using RF lenses now that were made more than 50 years ago. Leica was very wise to make the M8 a real M. What they now need to do is to take another look at how "functionality" should be defined in the age of digital capture. It's not just about shutter speed, aperture and focus any more. There are other variables that have become as central to serious photography as those three. Leica also needs to seal these cameras and to offer a set of lenses with gaskets for photographers who sometimes need to work in difficult conditions. But, overall, they came up with a great camera.

Cheers,

Sean

 

[Alain Briot]

I think the M8 is an exciting offering as well as a courageous and daring positioning on the part of Leica. A classic digital professional rangefinder camera. I look forward to placing it next to my M7. I use to carry the M7 with my 4x5 in the same bag. Hardly took any space or weight with a 35mm lens. I plan to continue this trend with the M8 and fill the empty place in my bag that was taken by the M7. Regarding image quality, only a raw file can really show what the camera can do.

 

[Asher Kelman]

I, unfortunately have not yet had the fortune to even hold and M8. So we have to see this camera, right now through the eyes of others. As I said previously:

"For sure, Sean has strength as a working photographer and that has to be given real weight."

This camera is I know one of the most important events of this year.

As a matter of interest, who has pre-ordered an M8?

Asher

 

[Sean Reid]

I, unfortunately have not yet had the fortune to even hold and M8. So we have to see this camera, right now through the eyes of others. As I said previously:

"For sure, Sean has strength as a working photographer and that has to be given real weight."

This camera is I know one of the most important events of this year.

As a matter of interest, who has pre-ordered an M8?

Asher

Hi Asher,

I will be buying an M8. BTW, thanks for the comments on my reviews.

Cheers,

Sean

 

[Don Lashier]

Some M8 images, snuck out of Photokina.

- DL

 

[Kirk Thompson]

Thank you, Don - now we know it works! But We'll need to see images with stuff going on in the corners to evaluate the sensor's compensations for angle-of-light.

 

[Rob.Martin]

I have to say it

I've been looking for a P&S worth having.
This looks like it covers it.
Plus I like the dinky little lenses etc.

I await Sean's "Image" review of the M8 to see if I want one. I am looking for an excellent "street" photography camera. P&S stuff just doesn't do it for me.

Go figure.....

Hurry up Leica!!!

ROB

 

[Asher Kelman]

I've been looking for a P&S worth having.
This looks like it covers it.
Plus I like the dinky little lenses etc.
I await Sean's "Image" review of the M8 to see if I want one. I am looking for an excellent "street" photography camera. P&S stuff just doesn't do it for me.
ROB

Don't even think about it! My sense from Sean is this is the best camera ever built. I don't think there's going to be anything wrong with the image! The outer rim of the lens is not used. I have not the slightest doubt, that only Leica haters will declare faults, a sort of compulsion!

Sean will find faults, but these most will be what I would term "nuances" of using Zeiss versus Leica lenses, new versus old versions and some needs to get firmware to reassign some functions.

To me, (naive-in-Leica-me), there are only 3 issues:

1. Can I afford it?

2. Is it even possible to get one of the first available?

3. Will I be able to regain my ability to use the rangefinder for focus or to focus by listening to click stops?

At least, I'm going to try to borrow a Leica film camera and see how my eyesight and touch has survived the evils of auto everything!

Anyone in L.A. feeling generous?

Asher

 

[Rob.Martin]

Don't even think about it! My sense from Sean is this is the best camera ever built. I don't think there's going to be anything wrong with the image! The outer rim of the lens is not used. I have not the slightest doubt, that only Leica haters will declare faults, a sort of compulsion!

Sean will find faults, but these most will be what I would term "nuances" of using Zeiss versus Leica lenses, new versus old versions and some needs to get firmware to reassign some functions.

To me, (naive-in-Leica-me), there are only 3 issues:

1. Can I afford it?

2. Is it even possible to get one of the first available?

3. Will I be able to regain my ability to use the rangefinder for focus or to focus by listening to click stops?

At least, I'm going to try to borrow a Leica film camera and see how my eyesight and touch has survived the evils of auto everything!

Anyone in L.A. feeling generous?

Asher

1. No (but when's that ever THE issue??)
2. I want to see it in action first
3. Never tried one, I like the concept of doing something new.



Rob

 

[scott kirkpatrick]

Leica M8 -- can one be satisfied with 50's lenses

I have kept my bottom-of-the-line Leica M2 and assorted lenses for this moment, and I can imagine having an M8 body follow me home from the store. What I worry about is the cost of deciding that I have to have two or three modern Leitz ASPH primes to get the modern look as well as the old fashioned low contrast look. Modern lenses and wide angle (<24mm actual focal length) view finders could cost several times the cost of the body.

scott

 

[Jack_Flesher]

As a matter of interest, who has pre-ordered an M8?

Asher

I've had mine on order since June or July...

 

[Asher Kelman]

And the price and date expected?

Asher

 

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

The outer rim of the lens is not used.

Strictly, it's the outer rim of the projected image that isn't used, but you were probably too excited when you wrote that .

I have not the slightest doubt, that only Leica haters will declare faults, a sort of compulsion!

Do you mean that Leica aficionados are not allowed to be critical about their gear?

I'm not a Leica owner but have worked with them, and the M8 I held (fondled?) at Photokina felt reassuringly well built. The shutter was a bit louder than I anticipated, given the noisy surroundings. However, I judge image quality, including that from my own gear, with brutal honesty. The Leica logo will not influence my judgement of image quality, why would it since I have no vested interest to defend, but the images by Erwin Putz did show that the expected issues are there. We'll have to wait for the final product before a fair judgement can be made.

3. Will I be able to regain my ability to use the rangefinder for focus or to focus by listening to click stops?

At least, I'm going to try to borrow a Leica film camera and see how my eyesight and touch has survived the evils of auto everything!

Eyesight does deteriorate over time, so that part you'll have to judge personally. For the rest, it's like riding a bicycle, once learned - never forgotten, but then I'm Dutch . It felt quite natural to focus manually, but then I occasionally still do that on my DSLR (e.g. with Tilt&Shift lenses, or product shots) as well.

Bart

 

[Don Lashier]

but the images by Erwin Putz did show that the expected issues are there. We'll have to wait for the final product before a fair judgement can be made.

Putz's comparisions were horribly flawed. Not only did they fail to equalize tonality (very important as illustrated here), but I assume they were in-camera jpgs, not raw, and C1 does considerably better with noise handling. But as you see, we need to wait for the release version and hope that someone does an intelligent analysis of the images or at least posts some raws so we can draw our own conclusions.

btw, Phaseone has already released a new version of C1 that supports DNG files.

- DL

 

[Jack_Flesher]

And the price and date expected?

Asher

$4495, end of this month.

 

[Edmund Ronald]

I have had my production M8 for a few days now. I am suggesting to Asher that I run a quick review here.

Edmund

 

[Asher Kelman]

My friend Edmund,

I would be so happy if you do indeed contribute your review! I have only shot with a pre-production camera only and although I was impressed with it, I could not say anything more.

What I have done is to refresh my feeling for the Leica rangefinder by shooting film using the M7. It was not at all painful. The only thing was strange was the hidden shutter sound that somehow was unnerving, making me look at the thing as if it was perhaps a creature playing possum.

So, now I'm ready to recieve the word!

I'm not sure who has more bias, the person who buys the camera or the one who gets a loaner and has no investment in the thing!

Asher

 

[Will_Perlis]

I'm not sure who has more bias ...

There have been lots of studies on this. People tend to look at adverts for the car they've already bought instead of ads for the competition, people tend to intensify beliefs when confronted with contrary evidence, etcetera ad nauseam.

And you know all about double-blind clinical trials, those elaborate protocols weren't developed just for their amusement value.