The Unique Advantages of the Mamiya System: real or imagined?

[Ron Steinberg]

This is moved from the thread here .dealing with the new Hy6 and Sinar back principally as this new topic has gained traction and is uniquely important.
So we start with the new Mamiya 28mm lens and go on to discuss possible advantages of the Mamiya system. Asher

Haven't read this entire thread, but I can tell you that the Mamiya 28mm lens is real, and it is really good. I work for the Canadian distributor (Vistek) and received the first 28mm in Canada for a client of mine. Distortion is incredibly low, lines even right out to the frame edge are perfectly straight, no barrel distortion. It's tack sharp in the middle, but is a bit soft at the extreme edges. Better stopped down to f/8 than wide open, and at f/32 there is obvious lens diffraction. Tested with the new Mamiya ZD back on an AFDII. The best part of this lens? No Hasselblad DAC required! Works on even an old AF body (had a photographer in today with his Lightphase and AF body testing it). We have 2 more on order and hope to get them soon. By the way, the guy who bought this lens bought a P45+ and entire Mamiya system just for this lens and what it can do for him. Equivalent 35mm focal length would be 17mm, but it's kind of hard to compare as the frame ratios are different.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Haven't read this entire thread, but I can tell you that the Mamiya 28mm lens is real, and it is really good. I work for the Canadian distributor (Vistek) and received the first 28mm in Canada for a client of mine. Distortion is incredibly low, lines even right out to the frame edge are perfectly straight, no barrel distortion. It's tack sharp in the middle, but is a bit soft at the extreme edges. Better stopped down to f/8 than wide open, and at f/32 there is obvious lens diffraction. Tested with the new Mamiya ZD back on an AFDII. The best part of this lens? No Hasselblad DAC required! Works on even an old AF body (had a photographer in today with his Lightphase and AF body testing it). We have 2 more on order and hope to get them soon. By the way, the guy who bought this lens bought a P45+ and entire Mamiya system just for this lens and what it can do for him. Equivalent 35mm focal length would be 17mm, but it's kind of hard to compare as the frame ratios are different.

Ron, for a guy with such important knowledge and being a longtime OPF member, it's about time you told us something really special and you delivered! This is very good news. We appreciate so much that guys who are in the commerce siude of photography equipment sales are willing to be involved and share information. We all know about Chuck Wesfall, then there's Thierry, (although he doesn't sell Sinar to USA or European OPF members), but there are more. The others are here without disclosing their work, principally in designing most of the key software packages we use.

This connection to what's real, helps us make more informed decisions.

Tell me, can one use the Mamiya lens with an adapter to mate with the Rollei mount or is the flange to sensor distance wrong. If the distance is right, we could simply machine an adapter. Heck, I'd make one!

Asher

 

[Ron Steinberg]

Ron, for a guy with such important knowledge and being a longtime OPF member, it's about time you told us something really special and you delivered! This is very good news. We appreciate so much that guys who are in the commerce siude of photography equipment sales are willing to be involved and share information. We all know about Chuck Wesfall, then there's Thierry, (although he doesn't sell Sinar to USA or European OPF members), but there are more. The others are here without disclosing their work, principally in designing most of the key software packages we use.

This connection to what's real, helps us make more informed decisions.

Tell me, can one use the Mamiya lens with an adapter to mate with the Rollei mount or is the flange to sensor distance wrong. If the distance is right, we could simply machine an adapter. Heck, I'd make one!

Asher

Asher,

It is difficult to find the time to devote oneself to posting on multiple forums, you can sometimes find me on the Luminous Landscape medium format forum and also the Phase One user to user forum. I am glad that I have brought you some good news, I hadn't realized how long I have been a member here (I came here after the RGF thing blew up, still miss some of those guys).

As to whether you can mount the Mamiya lens to the Rollei mount, I have no idea. I have no information about either products flange to sensor distance. But why would you want to? If you haven't tried it yet, I'd give the Mamiya AFDII body a whirl, it's quite a good piece of equipment, available NOW and very reasonably priced. As James Russell always says, buy what works today, not some future promise. I think it's excellent advice for a working photographer.

All the best,
Ron

 

[Asher Kelman]

Thanks Ron for the input.

I hope you'll stick around and keep us updated on the Mamiya systems. My first MF was the Mamiya C330 twin lens reflex and that was and still is an amazing camera!

Asher

 

[Ron Steinberg]

I used the C330 in high school photography class

Ron

 

[leonardobarreto.com]

That is good news for the Mamiya camp, definitively barrel distortion is a problem that can be fixed with software, but the cleaner it comes from the lens the better. I think that the last architectural photographers waiting to go digital (I met a very good and busy colleague that shoots film even though the client gets a digital file from scanning just because this lack of good wide angle solutions) with the H3 and AFD's 28mm.

I have just called my source at Calumet NY and he said that "HY6" demonstration that was scheduled for July 19 has been "postponed" because they could not get a camera to show.

On the other hand he confirmed that they will be getting the Mamiya 28mm and that is gorgeous "I was even surprised myself" and that the price would be about $5k ! -- probably the lens to rent on need-to-use basis only --

"In a few weeks" he may be able to let me test the 28mm, he added, but since I will be going to Nicaragua August 10, I hope the lens comes to NY first...

So that's it: Mamiya one point, HY6 no point...

 

[Asher Kelman]

................

On the other hand he confirmed that they will be getting the Mamiya 28mm and that is gorgeous "I was even surprised myself" and that the price would be about $5k ! -- probably the lens to rent on need-to-use basis only --

So that's it: Mamiya one point, HY6 no point...

The logic might be a H6 plus Sinar "package" at a good price and then rent the 28mm Mamiya lens and body for about the same price as the Mamiya lens alone for when you need it! The array of lenses, apart from the lack of the 28mm lens, is unparalleled.

If one doesn't already have a Mamiya with lenses, getting a Hy6 "package" could be a better deal. If you must have the $5,000 Mamiya 28mm lens, then of course that's different!

Asher

 

[leonardobarreto.com]

Asher

The problem with this system (referring to the competing Sinar Hy6 system) is that it has been designed to do two things when the entire world is moving -- or has already moved -- in to one of this directions, film and/or digital, that is. So, it may well manage, at the end, to find out that can't do any of the two well enough.

The format of the system is 6x6 -- did I mention this? -- so it means two things, one is that the distance from the filmplane to the rear of the lens, just off the path of the mirror is a given and unavoidable fact. And second, the image circle to be used for film is 6x6, but in reality almost no one will shoot film and it is going to be 6 x 45 at best.

Having this restrains of wanting to have one leg in the defunct film world while being "the new thing" for the digital era will make things really difficult in the very important department of wide angle lenses. Why? because it has taken years to Mamiya to make a 28mm with the "easy" mirror clarence/image circle or 6 x 45 format. Same thing for Fujifilm, and even Hasselblad has no 35mm for the reflex 6x6.

The Hy6 is coming out with not even a 35mm. One has has only been announced "to come later" and a 28mm... not even the concept of ever having one. It may even be technically and economically unattainable.

The market for MF equipment is brutal, we can tell by the tombstones of brave brands like Contax, Bronica, Hasselblad 6x6, the Kodak back, the Fujifilm back, and others. So, if I was a photographer thinking about establishing a long and expensive relationship with a MF system, I would have to weigh in the consequences of going along with a system that inpossed upon itself the mechanical handicap of having to carry a longer-than-needed reflex clearance and image circle.

Also, I would consider the chances of that system to establish itself and be able to accompany me in that long and expensive relationship it to the future.

So, Asher, think about it...

 

[Asher Kelman]

Leonardo,

If there's an issue with the mirror, how is Mamiya better off? Their cameras take film backs. What's the difference besides the 28mm lens?

Anyway, I personally expect that we'll see a 6x6 chip!

Asher

 

[leonardobarreto.com]

(Asher, I edited my post, but can't save it, can you please erase the other [EDIT: done by Nicolas Claris])

Leonardo,

If there's an issue with the mirror, how is Mamiya better off? Their cameras take film backs. What's the difference besides the 28mm lens?

Anyway, I personally expect that we'll see a 6x6 chip!

Asher

The difference is that Mamiya and Hasselblad Hx are a different format all together, the old Hasselblad was 6x6 but the new one, (the H) -- made by Fujifilm -- is the square with a piece chopped off one side (or from the top, depending on where you are standing)

The square format was a lot of fun for the Graflex killer: the Rolleiflex, for one reason: you can shoot always with your waist level finder, since there is no need to tilt the camera to change from landscape to portrait, the pentaprism was not necessary this made the cameras smaller, lighter and fun to use since you could shoot from the hip. Hasselblad enjoyed the same advantages and Rolley came out with the Rolleyflex, whose lenses are being inherited by the Hy6.

So, this are two different formats and, in my humble opinion what the designers of the Hy6 did is to start with a lens base and design a new body for that mount with the mission of interfacing with the digital age.

This is where the mistake -- continuing with personal opinions -- was made. The digital world is not 6 x 6 but 6 x 4.5, there is a discrepancy, a few 15cm (or is it mm?,) of difference.

I would have taken advantage of creating a new system and boldly go 100% digital. Yes, No film at all, nada, hasta la vista baby film... Concentrate on doing the best possible job with digital -- and maintaining a film model on the side if you want --.

Lenses would be all new, non retrofocus, calibrated for the digital backs, gorgeous wide angles like the legendary Hasselblad Biogons, electronic view finder of exceptional quality etc etc. (remember that the backs are now coming with live view, so why use a 1930's reflex system in 2007??)

This is really a retrofitting job on a pre existing lens base in to a camera that is basically the same old reflex box as before.... and no wide angles !

Regarding the coming of larger square sensor any time soon ... don't hold your breath.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Leonardo,

I see this a more a faith-based belief than really a fundamental truth. There is no reason why one will not see a 28mm Rollei mount lens. If Mamiya can do it, so can Rodenstock! I see an advantage for Mamya in that the are a lot of used cameras available.

Asher

 

[Ray West]

Hi Leonardo,

There are so many ways that the physical problems could be overcome, by imaginative use of engineering, that the current traditional camera makers are unable to use, for various reasons. From where I sit, little innovation has been made, it's still sort of engineering from the dark ages.

It is an interesting time of change, unless you have to decide what to buy, based on traditional thinking. (by that, I mean expect to be able to be happy with your choice in five years time).

Best wishes,

Ray

 

[leonardobarreto.com]

Asher, my point is that there is a difference, and one in the measurable objective sense. To use an example, is as if Rollei wanted to enter a motorcycle formula 1 race. Their bike has standard engine but calls for a pilot and passenger by design. Competing teams have: same engine, but their design includes one person only: the pilot. I would say that Rollei team, no matter how good they are, and the pilot how skilled, at the end the design will make them slow down.

"There are so many ways that the physical problems could be overcome": Yes, but you can't change physical facts.

The fact is that H6Y has to design and produce 35mm and 28mm lenses that are as good as the competition on the 6 x 4.5 format and also on a 6 x 6 format. That is the co-pilot in my example, the physical fact is that the "drag and weight" of this passenger will always slow down the team.

Hasselblad is using an entire system change of direction based on the 28mm. The H1 H2 will not be able to accept the 28mm -- even if mechanically they will have the same mount -- that lens will be usable only on the H3 that is also closed to other digital backs but their own.

So, if Rollei was coming at the end of the year with an open system that accepts Phase One, Leaf backs AND a 28mm they could mount the ramp of the highway relatively fast in the crucial introduction moment. But this is not the case, they will mount the ramp slow and then speed up ... somehow.

In you like one of the two leading brands of digital back: Leaf and Phase One, and want to ever use wide angles, then only real choice you will have is the other one brand. This is the reality in the present. If you decide to spend the amount that would get you a nice automobile, on a system that looks good but has mayor physical problems to overcome, is your own decision.

Ashe, it seams as if I had something against this system and that I was defending my brand as Nikon/Canon owner battle for theirs, I don't, I am mechanical addicted, love everything that was designed in a surprisingly new way. Also I may be wrong with my analysis, after all I have not even seen the camera yet, but on paper at least it looks as if they do have things to overcome.

 

[Thierry Hagenauer]

Dear Leonardo,

may I make some few remarks.

I don't know if you have heard about, but the 28mm Hasselblad does not seem to be the cream of the cake. I have spoken with some using it and most of them are disappointed by the quality. I have not tested it myself, yet, and this is just what I have heard from good professionals who know what they speak about.

I just wish to correct also something: the Hy6 is not a Rollei product, it is a Jenoptik camera manufactured by Franke & Heidecke. It has been a product orderer from Jenoptic AG in Germany (which owes Sinar AG Switzerland) to Franke & Heidecke in Germany, the "new" name of the former manufacturer of Rolleiflex cameras. All decisions are made by Jenoptik, e.g. which company will sell this camera.

I know that this new system will have to do its proves, when hitting the market, but I am very confident that it will, after having tested it mysef. You shall be surprised by the design and balance of the camera, in comparison to the H series. I do not want to elaborate at this stage, since the camera is now in beta-testing phase and will be available for our distributors by September, units for endusers by October probably.

Best regards,
Thierry

Asher, my point is that there is a difference, and one in the measurable objective sense. To use an example, is as if Rollei wanted to enter a motorcycle formula 1 race. Their bike has standard engine but calls for a pilot and passenger by design. Competing teams have: same engine, but their design includes one person only: the pilot. I would say that Rollei team, no matter how good they are, and the pilot how skilled, at the end the design will make them slow down.

"There are so many ways that the physical problems could be overcome": Yes, but you can't change physical facts.

The fact is that H6Y has to design and produce 35mm and 28mm lenses that are as good as the competition on the 6 x 4.5 format and also on a 6 x 6 format. That is the co-pilot in my example, the physical fact is that the "drag and weight" of this passenger will always slow down the team.

Hasselblad is using an entire system change of direction based on the 28mm. The H1 H2 will not be able to accept the 28mm -- even if mechanically they will have the same mount -- that lens will be usable only on the H3 that is also closed to other digital backs but their own.

So, if Rollei was coming at the end of the year with an open system that accepts Phase One, Leaf backs AND a 28mm they could mount the ramp of the highway relatively fast in the crucial introduction moment. But this is not the case, they will mount the ramp slow and then speed up ... somehow.

In you like one of the two leading brands of digital back: Leaf and Phase One, and want to ever use wide angles, then only real choice you will have is the other one brand. This is the reality in the present. If you decide to spend the amount that would get you a nice automobile, on a system that looks good but has mayor physical problems to overcome, is your own decision.

Ashe, it seams as if I had something against this system and that I was defending my brand as Nikon/Canon owner battle for theirs, I don't, I am mechanical addicted, love everything that was designed in a surprisingly new way. Also I may be wrong with my analysis, after all I have not even seen the camera yet, but on paper at least it looks as if they do have things to overcome.

 

[Ben Rubinstein]

I think what could possibly be more important is that Mamiya bringing this lens to production shows that it is still alive. With Hasselblad being the only big digital MF boy producing, the Hy6 still being waited for and everyone else in limbo or dead, it's important that Mamiya other than the half marketed ZD/back, are still in the game and showing it.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Leonardo,

I see no mechanical reason why the image circle of a lens on the Hy6 has to be considered like an extra passenger; not a good metaphor! If you start off calling a man a rat, then, of course, any further expansion of discussion has to be negative! So let's reove the extra passenger idea.

The image circle of lenses for the 6x6 Rollei platform have given good coverage in film photgraphy for half a century or more. So to use that large coverage for just 6x4.5 seems to me, at least, a no brainer? Why should there be any problem? Does the format and positon of the mirror in the Hy6/Rollei original setup leave no space for the rear part of the optics of a 28mm lens? Is that what you are saying? Even then, what on earth does this have to do with 6x4.5 versus 6x6. What am I missing?

In any case, I see no reason why a 28mm lens can't be designed with today's new materials and computer aided optical design capabilities.

The Hy6 uses all (or almost all) the existing Rollei-mount lenses and that alone, makes the new platform economical for photographers. Getting around the wide angle problem is solved by simply mounting a fine avaliable lens on any of the LF, Alpa or specialized architectural platforms.

Asher

 

[leonardobarreto.com]

Asher, I'm sorry about the example, let me see if I can explain the mechanics of this.

Lets start by the basics. All lenses are of two general type. The view camera and range finders on one side and all reflex camera on the other.

The second are called retro-focus and the first non-retro-focus. Retro means backwards, so what happens is that since the reflex design intrinsically needs space for mirror clearance the designers have to set the camera at a given distance and compensate optically so that the focus falls on the film plane. This is not a problem with normal or tele lenses, but the more wider you get the more compensation has to be formulated in the retro-focus design. Every time you do this more elements have to be included to correct for aberrations, naturally size, weigh and cost goes up.

That is the reason why Leica lenses are so much smaller and sharper than Nikon/Canon of equivalent size and aperture.

Hasselblad addressed this problem with the 38.6mm biogon by removing the mirror.

What makes the H6Y different than a 6 x 4.5 ? you ask.

The difference is that the H6Y has a bigger mirror and consequently a longer distance from where the lenses to the film plane than the H3 or AFD. This size difference makes the task of formulating a retro-focus lens compared to the other cameras more difficult.

The field is not even, only if you shoot film or you have a 6x6 sensor size digital back the advantage could be regained.

In practical terms the system will come to market with no 35mm and not even the announcement of a 28mm in the works when the other two systems out there have the two options.

I most warn you that all of this is my personal analysis just by looking at the numbers and other peoples opinions, and don't know if any body even understand what I'm trying to explain, maybe someone else that do please help me with this.

Otherwise, lets just wait and see if I'm off base.

Take care, Leonardo
ps, I used an Imacon at My Own Color Lab to scan 16 4x5 c-negs at 400mb 16 bits each today, fantastic piece of equipment (don't know the model No.)
All images shot with Will's Speed Graflex !

 

[Asher Kelman]

Hasselblad addressed this problem with the 38.6mm biogon by removing the mirror.

A great camera even now! Yes, I'm so sorry it was sold!

What makes the H6Y different than a 6 x 4.5 ? you ask.

The difference is that the H6Y has a bigger mirror and consequently a longer distance from where the lenses to the film plane than the H3 or AFD. This size difference makes the task of formulating a retro-focus lens compared to the other cameras more difficult.

However, the picture is taken in landscape format. Not so good for shooting people! The back does not rotate!

ps, I used an Imacon at My Own Color Lab to scan 16 4x5 c-negs at 400mb 16 bits each today, fantastic piece of equipment (don't know the model No.)
All images shot with Will's Speed Graflex !

So let's see these LF scanned images! It would be nice to scan the pics on a flat bed scanner like an Epson or Microtek to see how much we lose in not having the Imacon.

Asher

 

[Thierry Hagenauer]

Dear Leonardo,

althought the 35mm Schneider AFD will probably not be available from the begining in September/October, the Sinar Hy6 does accept all the Rollei 6008 AF and non-AF lenses. Among them there is a Schneider Super-Angulon 3.5/40 HFT-PQ.

I know that a 40 is not a 28.

On the other side, if in the future the sensor size becomes bigger (and this is only a speculation from me, without any clear knowledge = dont' ask me to speculate more!), all of a sudden the available 35mm shall be wide enough, and the Hasselblad H3D "stuck" with their 645 so-called "fullframe" format.

Best regards,
Thierry

In practical terms the system will come to market with no 35mm and not even the announcement of a 28mm in the works when the other two systems out there have the two options.

 

[leonardobarreto.com]

Dear Thierry

In the list bellow that you posted, I see the 35 2.8 PQS lens as "new coming AFD lenses" but I don't see any 28mm in the list before the statement that "At the moment there are no other lenses planed.

So it means that a 28mm is not planed at all ?






"As well as the new coming Schneider AFD lenses:

- Schneider AFD 2.8/35 PQS
- Schneider AFD 2.8/50 PQS
- Schneider AFD 2.8/80 PQS
- Schneider AFD 2.8/120 macro PQS
- Schneider AFD 4.0/150 PQS
- Schneider AFD 2.8/180 PQ
- Schneider AFD 4.6/60-140 PQS

At the moment there are no other lenses planed.

Best regards,
Thierry

 

[Thierry Hagenauer]

hi Leonardo,

Yes, as said, AT THE MOMENT, there is no 28mm planed. This does however not mean that we do not speak/evaluate the feasibility of such a lens. I shall certainly inform here, should there be something new coming.

Thierry

So it means that a 28mm is not planed at all ?