What level or kind of craft is necessary for a photograph to be Art"?

[Asher Kelman]

Asher,

no need to add the cultural dependency to the discussion, it was already mentioned here.

and well put!

 

[Asher Kelman]

............

For photography, I like this simple definition:
A good capture is the base for a good picture. You can enhance it with good post-processing and it can even stand bad post-processing up to some point without losing its impact.
A bad capture cannot be turned into a good one by post-processing.

This is helpful.

Asher

 

[fahim mohammed]

There cannot be a universal definition of ART.

Art is not an objective science. It is subjective. Being that there are just opinions; some widely agreed to and in flux.

And it is important to bring cultural differences as well as socio-economic ( as well as many other factors ) into consideration. To brush such differences by saying ' we know that..from here and here and there..' and then say ' let's get back to the definition of ART and not waste our time in such trivialties might be ok for some.

For me, then the thread has nothing of value. Been there, done that, heard it all before. Tell me something I did not know..from wiki!!

p.s and I can provide volumes of references where this subject has been discussed to death.
But that does not preclude dicussing it again with a fresh perspective. So is the case of influence of culture in ART.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Fahim,

Art is an human experience. It must by necessity get the cultural stamp of each society. Still the same motivations for of creativity and viewing by a public following takes place. We in the West are very ignorant of art outside of European dominated cultures. We'd appreciate getting a new perspective.

My knowledge of the Muslim world is limited to the glory of the Ottoman empire and the fine tiles, marble, architecture, poetry and illustrated manuscripts the tourist can readily see. I have no experience of any art galleries in muslim lands but have seen exhibitions of modern Arab art in London.

So, for me, at least, this an area for learning!

I'd love to know about traditional art outside Western societies especially the art of muslim countries such as Egypt, Syria, Kuwait, Saudi, Lebanon and so forth. In galleries, are there major difference in acquisitions with a lot of Western artists exclude? I museums what would we see? What are children taught in school? Then how does this impact, if at all, taking of photographs at home or in the street or photographs chosen for display in museums and galleries?

Asher

Asher

 

[Mark Hampton]

Michael Nagel
............

For photography, I like this simple definition:
A good capture is the base for a good picture. You can enhance it with good post-processing and it can even stand bad post-processing up to some point without losing its impact.
A bad capture cannot be turned into a good one by post-processing.

This is helpful.

Asher

yes it is - lets explore it.

what is a good capture?

what is a good picture?

what is good post-processing?

what is bad post-processing?

what is a bad capture?

it seems we have to nail down what these mean to Michael to work with this.

can you help Michael?

cheers

 

[Michael Nagel]

Michael Nagel
............

For photography, I like this simple definition:
A good capture is the base for a good picture. You can enhance it with good post-processing and it can even stand bad post-processing up to some point without losing its impact.
A bad capture cannot be turned into a good one by post-processing.



yes it is - lets explore it.

what is a good capture?

what is a good picture?

what is good post-processing?

what is bad post-processing?

what is a bad capture?

it seems we have to nail down what these mean to Michael to work with this.

can you help Michael?

cheers

Mark,

I am sure that you have your own opinion on this very subjective judgment.
It will surely guide you to what fits into which category you listed above

Best regards,
Michael

 

[fahim mohammed]

Fahim,

Art is an human experience. It must by necessity get the cultural stamp of each society.
....
My knowledge of the Muslim world is limited to the glory of the Ottoman empire and the fine tiles, marble, architecture, poetry and illustrated manuscripts the tourist can readily see. I have no experience of any art galleries in muslim lands but have seen exhibitions of modern Arab art in London.

So, for me, at least, this an area for learning!

.....
Asher

Asher

Asher, my knowledge of European art is even more limited than yours is of art in various other cultures.
But that does preclude both of us enjoying the art in and from different cultures; you might not like Turner, while I might be averse to Goya..but we both might enjoy Constable.

You have taken the time to study e.g Ottoman culture and its effects. How many others can say that?
I might have taken the time to study Vermeer, but not many of my friends have. But I know they appreciate the art that is in the Louvre.

It is only when someone takes a myopic and jaundiced view of other cultures ( or knows nothing of it except what is derived from a few sources..correct or not ) and make pronouncements to be taken as the definitive saying..that I have an issue with.

Soul. . Its history, its origins. The writings of Martin Luther King Jr., the music, the culture is born out of
a certain set of circumstances. Then someone steps up and tells me, with a pretense of authority, the music is good to dance to!! It is only art because it is politically correct.What a travesty to the soul of soul.

That is what I take issue with.

At least there are those, like yourself, who have the courage and humility to appreciate that which is
different. Honestly, how many, including me, know about Chinese art. Oh see the Ming vase, or the Terracota warriors on display at the British Museum. Is that it? And we are experts on Chinese art and can define art from the Chinese perspective? China..a significant population of this earth, and we want to be presumptuous and say this is the definition of art, for you, you, you and those who were before and those who shall follow. Our definition. And no we do not speak Mandarin, we have no need to.

That is what I take issue with. I will never say that in Europe there is no art. That would be stupid. I also say, and know by efforts made on my own time and expense, that there is all of humanity that too has art in various and different forms. I love the diversity of the human race. I love the diversity of its art forms. Being ignorant of other art forms is not an excuse to exclude those from any discussion of art.

 

[Mark Hampton]

Mark,

I am sure that you have your own opinion on this very subjective judgment.
It will surely guide you to what fits into which category you listed above

Best regards,
Michael

so that's a no then - why ****en bother posting your definition if you cant explain what what you mean by it

 

[Michael Nagel]

so that's a no then - why ****en bother posting your definition if you cant explain what what you mean by it

Mark,

The whole definition of Art is pretty subjective - so you expect a solid definition of a good and a bad capture from me? One man's garbage is another man's treasure
This was more a general guideline I follow, simply because I do not see a way to recover a capture I consider as failed (composition, timing) by PP and make a good picture out of it. You can of course throw any kind of trendy PP at it, but for me you get a picture which makes you look once for the latter and then turn away.

This is not what I want.

Best regards,
Michael

 

[Mark Hampton]

Mark,

The whole definition of Art is pretty subjective - so you expect a solid definition of a good and a bad capture from me? One man's garbage is another man's treasure
This was more a general guideline I follow, simply because I do not see a way to recover a capture I consider as failed (composition, timing) by PP and make a good picture out of it. You can of course throw any kind of trendy PP at it, but for me you get a picture which makes you look once for the latter and then turn away.

This is not what I want.

Best regards,
Michael

Michael,

that's a start - bad is a failure in your ability to convey your intent and good is when what you made works with your intent - PP only helps convey what you want to convey ?

is that about right?

 

[Asher Kelman]

Michael Nagel
............

For photography, I like this simple definition:
A good capture is the base for a good picture. You can enhance it with good post-processing and it can even stand bad post-processing up to some point without losing its impact.
A bad capture cannot be turned into a good one by post-processing.



yes it is - lets explore it.

what is a good capture?

what is a good picture?

what is good post-processing?

what is bad post-processing?

what is a bad capture?

If we agree that art requires some intent in assigning some raw material to this new form, then the creator simply works until satisfied that the result is as desired. What's so hard to understand? The artist is the one who has to judge what is good. If he has a client, then those standards will also be taken into account, but the artist in charge must declare whether or not a work meets the standards required.

What we think is immaterial! Once a work evokes in the artist the feelings and ideas intended for the work to possess, then the artist makes those decisions. So no further definitions are needed. This approach is workable everywhere.

Asher

 

[Mark Hampton]

If we agree that art requires some intent in assigning some raw material to this new form, then the creator simply works until satisfied that the result is as desired. What's so hard to understand? The artist is the one who has to judge what is good. If he has a client, then those standards will also be taken into account, but the artist in charge must declare whether or not a work meets the standards required.

What we think is immaterial. Once a work evokes in the artist the feelings and ideas intended for the work to possess, then the artist makes those decisions. So no further definitions are needed.

Asher

Asher

why would i agree with that?

intent was never mentioned in the definition which is why I asked the questions i asked - Michael then explained what he meant.

What's so hard to understand?

 

[Michael Nagel]

Michael,

that's a start - bad is a failure in your ability to convey your intent and good is when what you made works with your intent - PP only helps convey what you want to convey ?

is that about right?

This comes close. If you develop a post-processing that contradicts this, I might change my mind

Best regards,
Michael

 

[Mark Hampton]

This comes close. If you develop a post-processing that contradicts this, I might change my mind

Best regards,
Michael

lol.........

 

[Michael A. Smith]

Art is expression contained within a form. It is the form that makes it art. The form includes context. Yes, a picture hanging on a wall with a frame is art.

Difference between good and bad art is a function of the depth of expression and the interconnection between that expression and the form. Part of the form is the craft.

All good art shows care. Poor craft shows little care. Therefore poorly crafted works cannot be good art.

The function of art is to connect us to the world and to each other. It does so most effectively when the expression is deep and great care is involved in the making of the art.

I have written about this more fully in my "Letter to a Young Photographer."
http://www.michaelandpaula.com/mp/letyoung.html

Michael A. Smith

 

[Asher Kelman]

Art is expression contained within a form.

Succinct and apt!

I have said the artist exports his/her ideas into a physical form which can evoke the feelings and ideas imagined. You say art is an expression contained within the form and importantly that "It is the form that makes it art." These simple ideas work well together and need not refer to just Western art but appear to be relevant for Art of all societies and cultures.

Asher

 

[jake klein]

What if one has no idea or clue as to why they create? Is it not art then?

I have always thought that any "craft" or "medium" is just that, a craft or medium and that the final resulting piece of "art" is the what truly matters.

 

[Mark Hampton]

What if one has no idea or clue as to why they create? Is it not art then?

its the reader for me that makes it art - so it does it depends on them - but then that's what I think - and everything i say/write should be challenged as i am not a master or a photographer or a teacher . Lots of people make pictures intuitively.

 

[Asher Kelman]

What if one has no idea or clue as to why they create? Is it not art then?

I have always thought that any "craft" or "medium" is just that, a craft or medium and that the final resulting piece of "art" is the what truly matters.

Jake,

Everything we do is informed from within.
​

We don't often have access to this decision making. It appears to us as, "what we want to do." We just justify it be our reasoning or excuses. What happens, if we're fortunate, is that "eruptive volcanoes" seem to occur in our dream states or moments of inspiration. Then we might get freer access to the real thinking and creativity currents that are normally inaccessible and therefore not readily tapped by our conscious mind. That's necessary to stop us being totally distracted, like a daydreaming child. Artists, writers, musicians and scientists and poets have, naturally, or by training, easier access.

So whether we know it or not, decisions to make pictures are always informed on some level. Training the brain and getting hyperfocus by cutting out distractions, (Michael A. Smith or Paula Chamlee with their defining ground glass world, for example) comes with practice. In doing puzzles, the brain has figured things out well before we realize that!

Our Reptilian brain: immediate response

Driving: almost immediate response by subconscious training and rules dealing with myriads of incoming visual, vibrational and aural data

Our Cerebrum: seconds to minutes but takes extra time for us to know what was worked out, imagined or happened!

Hope this helps.

Asher

 

[Michaela Taylor]

For me the answer is really simple - if a photo was taken to show an emotion or subject matter in anyay other than reportage it is art to someone. It may not be good art but art it is. Although I do think the level of skill/craft that the photo is taken with alters how good the photos are and therefore how arty they are. You could also look at it that if a photo is taken with the intent to show something or a meaning other than what is obviously showen in the photo is could be considered art...