Just for Fun No C&C will be given: What The Heck...

[Tom Robbins]

There are probably some folks here who might recognize what this old gizmo is. Doug especially. One hint: it can be seen in Union, Illinois.

Genuine Thing-a-ma-bob​

 

[Asher Kelman]

Tom,

What a fabulous and challenging image.

I do not recognize this, but I am fascinated by the need to have pairs of steel "blades" that swing in opposite directions. It seems like some device that would allow, at some outer position, the one way passage of certain heavy objects.

I had thought, at first that this was the top of a roundabout from some fair or amusement park, but then the blades should all swing in the same direction!

I even tried a reverse image search using tin eye, but non of the almost 16 billion images they have recognized matches this view!

Whatever it is, it has a simple design that must follow function, but alas, I have not figured it out. You're right that Doug Kerr is the man we want here!

Asher

 

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, Tom,

There are probably some folks here who might recognize what this old gizmo is. Doug especially. One hint: it can be seen in Union, Illinois.

Genuine Thing-a-ma-bob​

My first guess is the business end ("cutter") of a rotary locomotive snowplow. I don't remember just now whether many of them had variable pitch.

Great shot in any case!

*************

Ah, yes, it is on UP075! Here is its sibling, UP076:

Photo by limalocomotiveworks.com​

Ah, here it itself:

Photo by John McCluskey.​

Thanks for the hint!

Ah, about the movable blades: I remember now, the direction or rotation of these cutters was reversible (so they could be arranged to shoot out the snow to either side). One set of blades or the other (they alternated) erected (by themselves, I think) to suit the direction of rotation.

Best regards,

Doug

 

[Asher Kelman]

Hi, Tom,



My first guess is the business end ("cutter") of a rotary locomotive snowplow. I don't remember just now whether many of them had variable pitch.

Great shot in any case!

*************

Ah, yes, it is on UP075! Here is its sibling, UP076:

Photo by limalocomotiveworks.com​

Ah, here it itself:

Photo by John McCluskey.​

Thanks for the hint!

Ah, about the movable blades: I remember now, the direction or rotation of these cutters was reversible (so they could be arranged to shoot out the snow to either side). One set of blades or the other (they alternated) erected (by themselves, I think) to suit the direction of rotation.

Best regards,

Doug

Doug,

Great work and an easy explanation of the blade hinges!

Now how did you search for these pictures? Did you know what you were looking for?

The reverse image search I did should have matched them!

Asher

 

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, Asher,

Doug,

Great work and an easy explanation of the blade hinges!

Now how did you search for these pictures? Did you know what you were looking for?

First I searched on "Union Illinois" "railroad" and "rotary snowplow". (I had an idea that the reference to Union was to a well-known museum or some other site where the machine might be living.)

That quickly brought up a reference to the railroad museum there, but as well a reference to the Lima Locomotive site, since that listed all of this "model" of snowplow that were ever made (only four) and where they now were, one of them being in the museum in Union!

Then, with its reporting marks (e.g., "UP075") in hand, I did a search and soon came up with any number of photos of it on a nice railroad picture site.

It's all in knowing what you are looking for!

This is what Carla calls the "seven minute search", as in, "If you can't track this down with the seven minute search, don't bother."

Best regards,

Doug

 

[Tom Dinning]

We don't get a lot of snow plows and cutters here in the Northern Territory. That put me at a slight disadvantage.
It looked like a chisel sculpture.
Next time it snows here and they put on to work on our only railway track I'll know what it is.
Thanks Tom

 

[Tom Robbins]

Doug, you're on the money as usual man!

The museum at Union is quite an interesting place with examples of locomotives from 19th century steam to mid-20th century diesel. Some have been restored and others remain in rusty condition. I was there for the first time on Monday, July 4.

CB&Q 3007​

Stop by next time you're in the central US, Tom.

 

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, Tom,

Doug, you're on the money as usual man!

The museum at Union is quite an interesting place with examples of locomotives from 19th century steam to mid-20th century diesel. Some have been restored and others remain in rusty condition. I was there for the first time on Monday, July 4.

CB&Q 3007​

Lovely!

Stop by next time you're in the central US, Tom.

I'll try and do that.

Thanks.

Best regards,

Doug

 

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, Tom,

CB&Q 3007​

Nice "Hudson" class machine, built by Baldwin (although CB&Q built two of 'em themselves).

One of these machines (not sure which one) is credited with hauling ten standard passenger cars between Cochrane and La Crosse, Wisc. at 112 mph.

Ah, for the days when we had more steam and less hot air!

Here is that puppy when still in service (date unknown):

photo from the Darryl E Van Nort Collection​

Best regards,

Doug

 

[Asher Kelman]

Tom,

I so appreciate you bringing these massive steel monsters andDoug's prowess in identifying them and giving them names and some historical context!

I have enormous respect for the men who designed and financed these train systems, but even more for the myriads of workers who labored to bring these great ideas into reality.

Trains, like water on rocks, have sculpted our societies distribution over the landscape. In the USA, at least, we're used to hearing how all the jobs have gone to the Far East and industries have vanished. I myself was very surprised to discover train fabrication here in Los Angeles. Believe it or not, locomotives are still being built here in the USA!! Of the half a dozen fab shops I am working in Southern California, one, I discovered makes the frames and outer pretty panels of Siemens high speed trains.

The former involves a lot of welding, one man working at a time and the beautiful outside panels are cut on a Waterjet machine.

BTW, almost all of the workers are Hispanic immigrants and one Caucasian fellow is an ex convict who murdered someone. These are real people who still make massive machines!

Asher

 

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, Asher,

Believe it or not, locomotives are still being built here in the USA.

Oh, quite.

Of the half a dozen fab shops I am working in Southern California, one, I discovered makes the frames and outer pretty panels of Siemens high speed trains.

The former involves a lot of welding, one man working at a time and the beautiful outside panels are cut on a Waterjet machine.

BTW, almost all of the workers are Hispanic immigrants and one Caucasian fellow is an ex convict who murdered someone. These are real people who still make massive machines!

All lovely!

Thanks for that insight.

I must note that "Hispanic" and "Caucasian" are not two different values of the same property. Your narrative seems to contrast them. "Almost all the people in the shop were British, but the foreman was Roman Catholic."

Curiously enough, the antithesis of "Hispanic" is often "Anglo"!

Best regards,

Doug

 

[Asher Kelman]

Hi, Asher,



Oh, quite.



All lovely!

Thanks for that insight.

I must note that "Hispanic" and "Caucasian" are not two different values of the same property. Your narrative seems to contrast them. "Almost all the people in the shop were British, but the foreman was Roman Catholic."

Curiously enough, the antithesis of "Hispanic" is often "Anglo"!

Best regards,

Doug

In "Elizabethan I" England, Catholic was pretty well the opposite of English! Here in Los Angeles, "Hispanic is, de facto, by all usages, a racial class. "Caucasian" implies you can fire the fellow just for saying "Good Morning!" Unless he is one of the owner's relatives!

Still, here, it's mostly the European originated Caucasians who run the fab shops and the "Hispanics" are the shop foremen and pretty well do all the skilled work!

Asher

 

[Jerome Marot]

I don't get that one and maybe I should. Why would "Caucasian" imply one can fire the fellow just for saying "Good Morning"?

Obligatory rotary snow plow: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuX4G3znpDE

 

[Asher Kelman]

I don't get that one and maybe I should. Why would "Caucasian" imply one can fire the fellow just for saying "Good Morning"?

Obligatory rotary snow plow: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuX4G3znpDE

Jerome,

We have a long list of "protected" individuals in the workplace for which there are immediate remedial system responses with legal backing to prevent anyone of a non-European ethnic origin or some social preference or sexual identity even appearing to be disrespected, never mind abused. So if one needs to lighten the payroll, firing a tall, European looking young male, (with no provable disability), is a pretty safe solution. There is little State or City sense of outrage and as long as he doesn't belong to a Union, he is ready to be fired just when he clocks in and says, "Good Morning!".

Otherwise, firing folk here is fraught with all sorts of routine claims of "Hostile work environment", Harrassment" or other claims, some of them no doubt fully justified. However, it is exceedingly rare that anyone would take seriously such claims from a young tall fit European looking fellow. If he were to stuff himself so he was grossly overweight, he has a very good chance of a successful claim under "The Americans' with Disabilities Act", but merely wearing glasses like Clark Kent in Superman movies doesn't count.

I hear that in France, the government tries to pass laws making it easier to fire workers so that employers can take risks of increasing hiring during busy periods. There is a negative side to job-security here in the USA too. This is a major longstanding social problem, especially in schools or police forces where bad performance or behavior almost never can lead to being fired, unless someone actually is crippled or dies as the result of the employee's bad behavior!

It's a complex problem of being fair to workers and yet having job security that does not clash with common sense.

As a result, right now, major sectors of industry no longer hire much of their own workers, like nurses or technicians, so there is a layer between them and the bad hire/match, no matter whose fault it turns out to be.

Yes, it, no doubt, sounds "flip" and somewhat "racist" even, but a young white fellow can be fired as he walks through the door and no agency will take up his case. I would advise him to limp and then he has a government department to fight tirelessly for him.

Asher

 

[Asher Kelman]

There are probably some folks here who might recognize what this old gizmo is. Doug especially. One hint: it can be seen in Union, Illinois.

Genuine Thing-a-ma-bob​

Does anyone know what these are made of? Is this a special steel and do blades have to be sharpened?

Also how do they get the power from the engine? Is this linked through the wheels?

Asher

 

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, Asher,

Does anyone know what these are made of? Is this a special steel and do blades have to be sharpened?

Dunno. Yes, probably a special steel that will be "tough", but I don't think the operation is dependent on the edges actually being "sharp".

Also how do they get the power from the engine? Is this linked through the wheels?

No, always (as near as I know) the cutter is separately-driven. In modern ones, I think they typically have a separate diesel engine to drive the cutter.

But to explain the situation in this machine, I need to give some background.

In conventional steam locomotives, the connecting rods (operated by the pistons) directly drive the wheels. Thus there is no distinct "steam engine" that drives the wheels - the locomotive is the "steam engine".

But in a "Shay" locomotive (named after its inventor), there is what is essentially a self-contained steam engine (with its own crankshaft), which then turns a shaft that drives the wheels through gearing at each wheel axle. The major advantage is that with this situation, where there is a "gear reduction", the steam engine proper can run at a high speed but give the wheels a lot of torque. Thus this is especially good for locomotives used to haul logging trains up steep grades (at very moderate speeds).

You can see here the "classical" Shay configuration:

photo from Lima Locomotive Works​

You see the actual "steam engine" in the center. This has three cylinder pairs, each one with a larger-diameter cylinder and a smaller-diameter cylinder. This is part of a "compound" scheme, where the steam (initially at high pressure) first works the small-diameter pistons and then, now partially exhausted and at lower pressure, works the large-diameter pistons, better suited to extract energy from lower-pressure steam (which flows at an increased volume). This is sort of a two-stage "impedance-matching" principle, and allows the energy of the steam to be most effectively utilized.

The crankshaft of the engine, through universal joints, directly drives the longitudinal shafts that run to the two sets of wheels (two powered "trucks" - "bogies", in British)

Now, the Lima rotary snow plow uses a variation of the Shay principle. The locomotive wheels are driven by a three-cylinder-pair compound steam engine, but instead of its being mounted as we saw in the earlier figure, it is "up in the body", and drives the wheels through a different path (the details of which I do not know just now).

Then, a second very similar three-cylinder-pair compound steam engine, mounted alongside the "propulsion" engine, drives the cutter. Like the propulsion engine, it can be reversed by manipulation of the valve system.

We see the two steam engines here, between the cab and the boiler:

photo from Lima Locomotive Works​

This is in fact UP076, the sibling of the one in the original photo here, under construction. (The outer shroud is not yet in place here.)

Lima was very prominent in the Shay locomotive business, and, when all you have is a hammer . . .

Neat, wot?

Best regards,

Doug

 

[Asher Kelman]

Obligatory rotary snow plow: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuX4G3znpDE

Jerome,

I nearly missed your super link. Imagine they bring that monster out every ten years and then when it's really necessary it slices through ten foot snow and sends it flying the length of a football field!

Still, with global warming, it might not get used for another 50 years!


Asher

 

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, Jerome,

Obligatory rotary snow plow: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuX4G3znpDE

Thanks for that link.

For some reason, at this time I am having some trouble running it. I'll try again later.

From what I was able to run, I note that the design of the cutter on this plow is essentially the same as on the one in the original picture here (including the "links" between pairs of blades, the exact operation of which I have not yet deciphered).

Best regards,

Doug

 

[Doug Kerr]

This screen grab from the wonderful video referred to us by Jerome:

allows me to decipher the two kinds of "struts" seen toward the ends of the blades on the rotary plow cutter.

The innermost ones (furthest from us in this picture) serve to assure that when a "counterclockwise" blade is up, its "clockwise" partner is down (the state seen in the picture).

By the way, I don't think there is any explicit mechanism to sets the blades in one state or another depending on the direction or rotation to be used. I think that when the cutter, rotating in a certain direction, first encounters the snow, the reaction will cause the "wrong-way" blades to flatten out and the "right-way" blades to erect.​

The outermost "links" do not connect to the blades but rather to tabs on a fixed hinge member. I suspect they are just to strengthen the supporting structure to withstand the bending moments placed upon its trough-shaped "leaves" by the reactive forces on the blades.

I was interested to learn from the narrative that this machine had been converted from a steam-driven one. I don't think that was a Lima, because the four that they built seem accounted for elsewhere. But I will need to do some further genealogical work on that.

In my copious free time.

Best regards,

Doug

 

[Doug Kerr]

I believe I was in error when I described the two "Shay-style" steam engines in the Lima rotary snow plows as one being for propulsion and one to drive the cutter.

I now believe that both these steam engines drove the cutter. The plow was propelled by one or more conventional locomotives coupled to it in the "snow train".

Best regards,

Doug

 

[Antonio Correia]

Very interesting conversation !

Thank you !

 

[Asher Kelman]

I wonder what the system is for mothballing such a venerable machine between major, once in a decade calls to service?

In lesser storms, Jerome's link showed men shoveling snow by by hand. That seems so prinative and frankly barbaric work and so inefficient!

I guess there are formulas that take into consideration the extent of solidification and water content and this weight of the snow and whether that creates any significant obstacle for the "cattle grid" low slung on the front of the train to clear the tracks. Is this done today by a fellow just looking and making some guy estimation or is this an engineering excerise followed with some rigor?

Asher

 

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, Asher,

I wonder what the system is for mothballing such a venerable machine between major, once in a decade calls to service?

In lesser storms, Jerome's link showed men shoveling snow by by hand. That seems so prinative and frankly barbaric work and so inefficient!

I think that passage was a bit misleading (this was, after all, The Discovery Channel, "edutainment"). Those men were apparently clearing snow from a switch ("turnout"), something that would presumably have to be done by hand even after the main right-of-way were cleared with a rotary or other plow. (Although in yards and such there are often snow-melting heaters provided on the switches, sometime gas-fired.)

I guess there are formulas that take into consideration the extent of solidification and water content and this weight of the snow and whether that creates any significant obstacle for the "cattle grid" low slung on the front of the train to clear the tracks. Is this done today by a fellow just looking and making some guy estimation or is this an engineering excerise followed with some rigor?

Dunno how that is managed.

Recall that certainly during years of less-monstrous snowfall, the tracks are still regularly cleared by more basic types of plows, commonly a wedge plow.

Here is an (old), modest capacity such:

and here a more modern, larger one:

it likely also self-propelled, or this (not self-propelled):

Best regards,

Doug

 

[Doug Kerr]

Here is a somewhat nicer view of the struts on the type of rotary plow cutter we have been discussing:

photo from Martin Gollery​

Notice the . . .

Oh, the hell with it.

That is Breanne, by the way.

Best regards,

Doug

 

[Antonio Correia]

When I saw the first image of this thread I immediately remembered the drill machines for tunnels like the one I post here. The variable density tunnel boring machine (TBM)
(Am I saying something stupid here ?)

I was not aware of the one showed. I had never seen one...

From​

 

[Tom Robbins]

My thoughts exactly, Antonio. I worked for a large equipment manufacturer in the 1970s that made a couple of this type of excavating machine. It was exciting for the manufacturing company, but it was absolutely boring work for the users of the finished machine.

 

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, Tom,

My thoughts exactly, Antonio. I worked for a large equipment manufacturer in the 1970s that made a couple of this type of excavating machine. It was exciting for the manufacturing company, but it was absolutely boring work for the users of the finished machine.

Oooohh!

Best regards,

Doug

 

[Jerome Marot]

it was absolutely boring work for the users of the finished machine.

Indeed. Nice pun.