Who Is Accountable?

[doug anderson]

Well, one more disaster in the Bush administration and no one is holding anyone accountable.

1. Lying about the war (4,000 dead Americans, 600,000 dead Iraqi civilians)
2. Lying about the Justice Department
3. Lying about the emails
4. Lying about lying
5. Lying about the economy

Someone is responsible. None of this happened all by itself, and yet I see no action taken by Congress to hold anyone accountable. Karl Rove is subpoened but refuses to show, etc. Talk talk talk and no one held accountable.

If we are to judge people by their actions (or in this case, non actions) it is apparent that there is no due process in this country and anybody with money and power can do what they want with impunity as long as they "win."

"Politics" is merely theater to lull Americans into believing that something is actually being done.

 

[Kathy Rappaport]

Photography, please

Hey, Doug...

I come here to share about photography. It's my escape. When I come to OPF and there is a bunch of stuff about War and politics it makes me feel uncomfortable. There is enough discussion of the world's state of affairs if that is what I want to get into. I am very politically aware and active but I really don't come here to discuss anything but Photography and I know others who have departed OPF because of it.

Can we stay on topic?

 

[Nill Toulme]

I'm starting to agree and I'm one of the worst offenders. At this point I just want to pull the covers up over my head and go to sleep for forty years.

Let's talk about photography.

Nill

 

[Michael_Stones]

... I really don't come here to discuss anything but Photography and I know others who have departed OPF because of it.

"Avoid if you take offense to cultural, moral or political controversy in any form": that's the advice Asher offered to those who easily take offense. It's written alongside the thread's title. So why not take it. I though your post manipulative and rude to Doug. But I'll forgive that momentary lapse of manners and hope Doug will too.
Mike

 

[Nill Toulme]

I think it's because we're all getting barraged with it from all sides wherever we go, we're all getting tired. Maybe once we're through the election, and the change of administrations (for good or ill), and the current financial crisis, and the war, and ... whoops, there I go. Anyway, once things settle down a bit, we can afford to be "provocative" again. ;-)

Alison Krauss has a wonderful song, "Get Me Through December," that for some reason comes to mind.

Nill

 

[Kathy Rappaport]

Sorry

Sorry that your interpretation of my post was that it was rude. By no means was that intended. Actually, I am trying to see where it would be rude....however, my original thought is still there. I have chatted with others who have left OPF because of the political discussions here and I know in conversation, that is not what Asher would intended. As they say, politics and religion are not topics for polite conversation.

 

[Ken Tanaka]

Of course there is nothing that requires that a visitor read threads such as this.

Nevertheless, I am in strong agreement with Kathy; I am disappointed to see such topics hosted here, even though it's in this separate playpen.

I have participated in some discourse on this topic recently, and in the past. But certainly not on photo enthusiast sites and in a more thoughtful and knowledgeable manner than Doug's angry workingman initial post is attempting to incite.

Like Kathy, I come here to read and occasionally participate in photographic topics. If my remarks are considered rude, too, well nuts. This is my vote.

 

[Nill Toulme]

I think a consensus is emerging...

Nill

 

[Michael_Stones]

I think a consensus is emerging...

Nill

Right Nill, 3:2. But 5:20 in the opposite direction on another thread at the time of this post.

http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6808


So what do you propose to do?

 

[nicolas claris]

I think that you North American guys forgot one thing…
You are not alone in the world. The planet, the countries and OPF.

I am with Michael Stones here.

And as a founder of OPF with Asher, I want to requote here:

"Avoid if you take offense to cultural, moral or political controversy in any form"

This open minded attitude is volontary from the beginning, we wished so with Asher and afaik are happy with this.

Yes it is a photography forum, but as photographers we each show a part of the world that we like or dislike, we show what we feel we have to, the way wedding, advertising, fashion, PJ etc. photogs shoot, choose what to and how to show, frame, illuminate or not is not innocent.

We are part of our world and are part of its description. For the goods and the bads…

So to achieve this we need to have all our senses hyper activated…

Politic determines our way of living. Good or bad.

I completely understand if someone doesn't want to read this particular forum or ANY other one here, well that one has just to zap it. This is easy.

But no one would prevent me and some others and some that came to OPF ALSO because of this freedom, to follow these threads.

You may have noticed that in the latter threads about American elections and situation, I have not posted. It doesn't mean that I find no interest here. On the contrary!

It helps me to understand a bit more the North American way of thinking, to dig a bit more within our cultural differences. I guess it can be the same form other guys from all over the world…

Would you, North American citizens, want it or not;
Would we, the other ones leaving on the same planet but in other countries;

Would we like it or not, the USA elections and USA behavioUr in the world does interfere with our own lives and political decisions in our own continent/countries. The main difference is that we don't vote in the USA!

So please let us understand more the whys and the hows of what we do like or dislike from your countries…

The question to have or not photographs posted in these threads have no importance for me, what I'm digging there is understanding, if a picture comes and help that's very fine, but if there is not it's fine too.

Our communauty is made of all kind of photographers, from the just looking at to the pros.
Some post some just read.

It's like this and this is fare and polite because we wanted it to be so.

This is why we are open minded and want OPF to keep opened.

There are plenty rooms here, just lay confortably in the one you like, leaving the freedom for other to share the same room as you or some different ones.

Thank you for reading my bad English till there. You can't even imagine how, despite the evidence, thanks to OPF, I have learned more English (but still need to improve. English? yes but not only!

UNDERSTANDING!

 

[doug anderson]

I don't feel ruded (excuse the neologism).

That said, I would rather vent among friends that get depressed. We are not going to be able to escape the consequences of our government's acts, at any rate.

Also, as others have mentioned, neither are Europeans going to be free of the fallout.


The collapse of the public sector usually means more laws, more police, more limits to expression (including photography).

 

[doug anderson]

I think that you North American guys forgot one thing…
You are not alone in the world. The planet, the countries and OPF.

I am with Michael Stones here.

And as a founder of OPF with Asher, I want to requote here:

"Avoid if you take offense to cultural, moral or political controversy in any form"

This open minded attitude is volontary from the beginning, we wished so with Asher and afaik are happy with this.

Yes it is a photography forum, but as photographers we each show a part of the world that we like or dislike, we show what we feel we have to, the way wedding, advertising, fashion, PJ etc. photogs shoot, choose what to and how to show, frame, illuminate or not is not innocent.

We are part of our world and are part of its description. For the goods and the bads…

So to achieve this we need to have all our senses hyper activated…

Politic determines our way of living. Good or bad.

I completely understand if someone doesn't want to read this particular forum or ANY other one here, well that one has just to zap it. This is easy.

But no one would prevent me and some others and some that came to OPF ALSO because of this freedom, to follow these threads.

You may have noticed that in the latter threads about American elections and situation, I have not posted. It doesn't mean that I find no interest here. On the contrary!

It helps me to understand a bit more the North American way of thinking, to dig a bit more within our cultural differences. I guess it can be the same form other guys from all over the world…

Would you, North American citizens, want it or not;
Would we, the other ones leaving on the same planet but in other countries;

Would we like it or not, the USA elections and USA behavioUr in the world does interfere with our own lives and political decisions in our own continent/countries. The main difference is that we don't vote in the USA!

So please let us understand more the whys and the hows of what we do like or dislike from your countries…

The question to have or not photographs posted in these threads have no importance for me, what I'm digging there is understanding, if a picture comes and help that's very fine, but if there is not it's fine too.

Our communauty is made of all kind of photographers, from the just looking at to the pros.
Some post some just read.

It's like this and this is fare and polite because we wanted it to be so.

This is why we are open minded and want OPF to keep opened.

There are plenty rooms here, just lay confortably in the one you like, leaving the freedom for other to share the same room as you or some different ones.

Thank you for reading my bad English till there. You can't even imagine how, despite the evidence, thanks to OPF, I have learned more English (but still need to improve. English? yes but not only!

UNDERSTANDING!

I sympathize with my European friends, who will suffer the consequences of our bolloxed economy.

 

[Asher Kelman]

"Avoid if you take offense to cultural, moral or political controversy in any form"

This open minded attitude is volontary from the beginning, we wished so with Asher and afaik are happy with this.

Yes it is a photography forum, but as photographers we each show a part of the world that we like or dislike, we show what we feel we have to, the way wedding, advertising, fashion, PJ etc. photogs shoot, choose what to and how to show, frame, illuminate or not is not innocent.

We are part of our world and are part of its description. For the goods and the bads…

So to achieve this we need to have all our senses hyper activated…

Politic determines our way of living. Good or bad.

I completely understand if someone doesn't want to read this particular forum or ANY other one here, well that one has just to zap it. This is easy.

But no one would prevent me and some others and some that came to OPF ALSO because of this freedom, to follow these threads.

Thanks Nicolas!

We need to be reminded that we are an open forum. Everything is open here except

1. shouting "fire!" about OPF's way of doing things, instead of sending complaints to Nicolas, Sean or myself.
   
2. Sharing Child porn, links to the same or support for that trade
   
3. Demeaning anyone in OPF and especially showing or suggesting moral equivalency in racism, ant-ethnicism
   
4. Cruelty

Some of the most important photographs are about war and political conflict. Also we need to widen the world beyond pretty flowers, the greatest goal save, stunning skin treatments and sunsets. If discussion helps a few people do this, we are justified. Even if this is not the case, the political discussions, will at the very least, underline areas where we believe we have the facts and these assumptions will be challenged and tested.

Imagine if we listened to all the complainers?

• "You can't have cat pictures, if you do, I'll leave!"
  
• "Cat pictures? Who cares? Now if you show nudes and so called "glamour" I'm gone!"
  
• "I can't stand seeing anymore sunsets!"
  
• "B&W is mostly just draining all the good out of a picture and a cover for failed technique!"
  
• "Fim is dead, don't cater to those people!"

The list goes on! We just assume that people who don't like sports will not visit that section. Who would suggest that we dismember our rich spread of interests in this way?

Saturday Night Live takes politicians to task. I see no harm in OPF doing the same. However, we need to balance such debate with photography on this and every other subject.

Now you may find threads closed for a while to cool them off for days to weeks as needed. However, we won't remove good social argument!

Asher

 

[Ken Tanaka]

There are literally thousands of other sites on the Internet where those so inclined can pointlessly and impotently wail and whine about their "views" on politics, religion, economics, women's fashions, or any of countless other topics du jour from any national point of view. So, to that end, OPF can serve no practical benefit as yet another outlet for such noise.

It's your site, Nicolas and Asher, and you're free to host whatever pleases you. But if you're going to maintain a non-photo soapbox I think you really have to reevaluate your intentions and revise the first paragraph on the OPF home page:

We established OPF May 2006 as an open forum for professional and enthusiast photographers worldwide. You will find the latest discussions on technology, creativity, function and other issues related to photography. Furthermore, these threads are moderated and reviewed by expert photographers.

 

[nicolas claris]

Right Nill, 3:2. But 5:20 in the opposite direction on another thread at the time of this post.

http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6808


So what do you propose to do?

Yes, do the maths!

 

[nicolas claris]

Bonsoir Ken
I don't think that both Asher and I forget the photography "aspect" of OPF.

We do, each one, upon our wishes, post a huge amount of posts dealing with photography, sharing our experience and thoughts.

You're here making a wrong crtitique to us, afai understand your comments ;-)

Personnaly I do care what other photographers think about the world/planet we share and photograph all together. I love your shots of Chicago for many reasons, and the more I understand your culture, the more I'm able to feel what is your sensitivity, hence a start to better friendship… No more, no less, but tht's not that bad!

 

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

There are literally thousands of other sites on the Internet where those so inclined can pointlessly and impotently wail and whine about their "views" on politics, religion, economics, women's fashions, or any of countless other topics du jour from any national point of view. So, to that end, OPF can serve no practical benefit as yet another outlet for such noise.

It's your site, Nicolas and Asher, and you're free to host whatever pleases you. But if you're going to maintain a non-photo soapbox I think you really have to reevaluate your intentions and revise the first paragraph on the OPF home page:

Hi Ken,

Thanks for sharing your feelings/opinion, and photography(!). In my humble opinion, and with all due respect, your honest post clarifies the issue at hand. Yes, there are sites where one can (anonymously) spew whatever crap/opinion one sees fit for whatever purpose (i.e. provocation for the sake of it, or really sincere).

OPF is different! We are not as anonymous as in other fora, we post under our real names. This principle alone will (in general) enhance the "truth in posting" (with the possible exception of unfortunate schizophrenic personalities). This was one of the attractions for me to join, the lower quantity of troll based posts.

Now, assuming that the "truth in posting" principle will increase the reliability/sincerity of our posts, wouldn't you agree that the chance of someone just "feeding the trolls" (like in other fora) is significantly reduced?

If we can be relatively sure that (even) Provocative Thoughts and Images(!) will be "from the heart" of the poster, then what's there to lose from taking notice? Doesn't one learn most from either one's own mistakes (being pointed out !) or alternative opinions/positions about things that "move" us. At the least it will more clearly help to define our own position on matters, and it might even jog our vision into something more balanced ...

Of course this will only benefit the forewarned readers of this forum.

Bart

 

[doug anderson]

Hi Ken,

Thanks for sharing your feelings/opinion, and photography(!). In my humble opinion, and with all due respect, your honest post clarifies the issue at hand. Yes, there are sites where one can (anonymously) spew whatever crap/opinion one sees fit for whatever purpose (i.e. provocation for the sake of it, or really sincere).

OPF is different! We are not as anonymous as in other fora, we post under our real names. This principle alone will (in general) enhance the "truth in posting" (with the possible exception of unfortunate schizophrenic personalities). This was one of the attractions for me to join, the lower quantity of troll based posts.

Now, assuming that the "truth in posting" principle will increase the reliability/sincerity of our posts, wouldn't you agree that the chance of someone just "feeding the trolls" (like in other fora) is significantly reduced?

If we can be relatively sure that (even) Provocative Thoughts and Images(!) will be "from the heart" of the poster, then what's there to lose from taking notice? Doesn't one learn most from either one's own mistakes (being pointed out !) or alternative opinions/positions about things that "move" us. At the least it will more clearly help to define our own position on matters, and it might even jog our vision into something more balanced ...

Of course this will only benefit the forewarned readers of this forum.

Bart

Neither do we "spew."

 

[Nill Toulme]

Some people don't like sports?

Nill

 

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Neither do we "spew."

Indeed, which is why I specifically worded it like that

.

Bart

 

[Rachel Foster]

So, seems to me there needs to be a decision on whether politics do or do not belong on OPF and a clear statement regarding the outcome of that decision.

 

[doug anderson]

So, seems to me there needs to be a decision on whether politics do or do not belong on OPF and a clear statement regarding the outcome of that decision.

I enjoy discussing politics with some of the exceptionally intelligent people on this forum. The owners have provided a place for these discussions to take place, and indicated that those people who do not wish to talk about politics do not have to enter the space. That seems to me very simple and clear.

What is not simple and clear is when someone who doesn't want to discuss politics enters the space provided for that purpose and then complains that politics should not be discussed. Hunh? That's censorious.

 

[Rachel Foster]

I hear you, Doug. But I'd just like some affirmation from the powers that be, you know?

 

[Nill Toulme]

Asher is TPTB around here, and he seems to have spoken, just slightly upthread. Carry on, and everybody be nice. ;-)

Nill

 

[Rachel Foster]

Works for me!

 

[nicolas claris]

Asher is TPTB around here, and he seems to have spoken, just slightly upthread. Carry on, and everybody be nice. ;-)

Nill

I don't know what TPTB means, but it doesn't only"seem" that both Asher and I have been clear.
We have been clear.

So yes, Nill: "Carry on, and everybody be nice. ;-)"

 

[Michael_Stones]

Well, one more disaster in the Bush administration and no one is holding anyone accountable.

1. Lying about the war (4,000 dead Americans, 600,000 dead Iraqi civilians)
2. Lying about the Justice Department
3. Lying about the emails
4. Lying about lying
5. Lying about the economy

Someone is responsible. None of this happened all by itself, and yet I see no action taken by Congress to hold anyone accountable. Karl Rove is subpoened but refuses to show, etc. Talk talk talk and no one held accountable.

If we are to judge people by their actions (or in this case, non actions) it is apparent that there is no due process in this country and anybody with money and power can do what they want with impunity as long as they "win."

"Politics" is merely theater to lull Americans into believing that something is actually being done.

With the debate about whether we can debate settled, let's debate.

Regarding your post that opened this thread, Doug, I don't think any person or group can be held accountable. The fable about a butterfly alighting on a leaf in place A at time 1 and triggering a sequence that resulted in a tornado (or whatever) in place C at time 3 seems to apply. The Iraq fiasco wouldn't have happened without 9/11; whatever triggered 9/11 was before Bush's time; the trigger for that trigger was ... and so on. The financial fiasco happened because rich folk wanting more money colluded with poor folk wanting cheap homesteads. Both got what they wanted for a while, but the absence of sensible rules of governance meant that this mutual benefit was bound to collapse sometime.

Derivations from mathematical chaos theory also seem to apply: in nonlinear systems, knowing what will happen is possible only over the short term. And our globalized world is hopelessly nonlinear. It seems more reasonable to acknowledge that than try to assign blame.

Cheers
Mike

 

[nicolas claris]

For some relief, Nil:
TBTB =
The Powers That Be
or
The People to Blame
LoL!

 

[Rachel Foster]

Chaos theory?

 

[Michael_Stones]

Go here, Rachel:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory

Is everyone on this site an insomniac, or what?

Mike