Zoo visit

[Tom dinning]

I’m ambivolent about zoos.
But they do provide an opportunity for a young woman to experience beyond daily activities.
Kelsy fell in love.
That’s enough for my biases to shift to the right momentarily.

 

[Asher Kelman]

First, the picture is as delightful and significant to us, as one can be: “The Child and Future”!

Asher

 

[Asher Kelman]

And yes, Tom we are troubled by imprisoning wild animals!

But we have already ravaged the planet so badly. Our disturbance has undermined survival of many species. For some collapsing populations, only breeding programs in zoos around the world can mend these losses!

Also, your sensitive caring granddaughter will now be even more strongly bonded and hopefully her generation will take up the fight to curb our excesses!

Asher

 

[Asher Kelman]

This should be THE POSTER for wildlife protection, as it shows what’s at existential risk!

Asher

 

[nicolas claris]

This should be THE POSTER for wildlife protection, as it shows what’s at existential risk!

Asher

Asher,
this is a lovely picture, but imagine the seal telling the little girl:

"Please little human, open the door for me…"
-
This even if lovely cannot stand, by definition, for "wildlife protection"

With this in mind, I totally agree with Tom's comment in the OP

 

[Asher Kelman]

Asher,
this is a lovely picture, but imagine the seal telling the little girl:

"Please little human, open the door for me…"
-
This even if lovely cannot stand, by definition, for "wildlife protection"

With this in mind, I totally agree with Tom's comment in the OP

I see the scene as a plea for the future of children and the animals in a world that seems to care about only making more money!

Asher

 

[Tom dinning]

I like looking at animals as much as the next person. From my privileged armchair I’m happy to protest.
In reality, the young person, Kelsy, was on an educational outing.
The value in zoos does lie in this realm. There are few opportunities for her to see animals such as this in the wild, and those chances are dwindling somewhat.

For me, it’s not about saving the gene pool but giving a person the opportunity to know these things first hand. Things she has not seen, felt, touched. In that, she is becoming a more informed person and will make her own decisions regarding the future of our wildlife.

Kelsy was delighted with her experience. So much so she wanted to take it home. Who am I to argue?

 

[nicolas claris]

I see the scene as a plea for the future of children and the animals in a world that seems to care about only making more money!

Asher

I like looking at animals as much as the next person. From my privileged armchair I’m happy to protest.
In reality, the young person, Kelsy, was on an educational outing.
The value in zoos does lie in this realm. There are few opportunities for her to see animals such as this in the wild, and those chances are dwindling somewhat.

For me, it’s not about saving the gene pool but giving a person the opportunity to know these things first hand. Things she has not seen, felt, touched. In that, she is becoming a more informed person and will make her own decisions regarding the future of our wildlife.

Kelsy was delighted with her experience. So much so she wanted to take it home. Who am I to argue?

Asher, Tom,
Are you aware of what you're writing?

Animals in the zoo are just like blacks (except they can't make their own revolution!) when exhibited in the late XIXth century till the 40' in Europe and USA!

Ota Benga, a human exhibit, in 1906. Age, 23 years. Height, 4 feet 11 inches (150 cm).
Weight, 103 pounds (47 kg).
Brought from the Kasai River, Congo Free State, South Central Africa, by Dr. Samuel P. Verner.
Exhibited each afternoon during September.
— a sign outside the primate house at the Bronx Zoo, September 1906.

Source : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_zoo

 

[Asher Kelman]

Asher, Tom,
Are you aware of what you're writing?

Animals in the zoo are just like blacks (except they can't make their own revolution!) when exhibited in the late XIXth century till the 40' in Europe and USA!

Ota Benga, a human exhibit, in 1906. Age, 23 years. Height, 4 feet 11 inches (150 cm).
Weight, 103 pounds (47 kg).
Brought from the Kasai River, Congo Free State, South Central Africa, by Dr. Samuel P. Verner.
Exhibited each afternoon during September.
— a sign outside the primate house at the Bronx Zoo, September 1906.

Source : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_zoo

Of course, Nicolas!

You are preaching to the converted, LOL!

You missed the nuances of Tom’s remarks and of mine. We write with an explosive and opinionated subtext. I cannot grade Tom’s extent of feeling on this But we are in the same direction of disapproval and revulsion!

I see the precious child and fear for her and pray for our future in a world that imprisons animals, wipes out their habitat and poisons the rain and rivers with chemicals!

Tom is close to the mistreatment and dispossession of aboriginal natives of the Australian Continent, New Zealand and Papua New Guinea!

I, of course m, have travelled widely in Africa and been to the places where African tribes brought their captive brethren to sell to the European slave traders!

Asher

 

[nicolas claris]

Glad to have badly understood… my bad

 

[Jerome Marot]

Then, it is probably good that there was a layer of hardened glass between that animal and Kelsy.

More on animal behaviour: https://www.whyanimalsdothething.com

 

[Asher Kelman]

Then, it is probably good that there was a layer of hardened glass between that animal and Kelsy.

More on animal behaviour: https://www.whyanimalsdothething.com

You are so observant! I didn’t realize there was glass!

Dreamy me! I was so taken by the two of them, both vulnerable and fascinated with each other that I thought it was a touch of heaven on earth!

Asher

 

[Tom dinning]

Animals, sex and religion.
If we could combine the 3 into one picture it would cause WW III.
Either that or it would be a great theme for a porn movie.

The seal and Kelsy survived the experience. I still have my ambivalence.

Al is well with the world.

I must admit, Ash, you can turn a phrase and stretch a bow with considerable latitude.
I didn’t see any black in cages while I was there. I can only assume they were removed with due discretion.
As for the animals, they seemed content and well cared for. I believe the zoo has an animal psychologist at hand to deal with issues of stress and human annoyance.
I did notice, though, a range of new keepers. Young, attractive, joyous in their trade, friendly and helpful. I asked christine if I could take one home but she objected strongly. Her intention was to put me in a cage with something savage and hungry.

I don’t disapprove of zoos, nor am I repulsed. My feelings are more subdued. Something akin to owning a pet. I understand why but would not have one myself.

My strong attachment is to Kelsy. I will give her every opportunity to learn. That’s pretty much it!

 

[nicolas claris]

I must admit, Ash, you can turn a phrase and stretch a bow with considerable latitude.
I didn’t see any black in cages while I was there. I can only assume they were removed with due discretion.

Asher didn't post about blacks, I did:
#8
Reading you now, I maintain my comment, it seems that you have no memory (about blacks in zoo) and even if you were not born (nor did I) a little search and read would feed your culture…
Even comfortable, at the end a zoo is a jail. Animals did not get there on their own, they were captured first!
What about if Kelsy were captured and shown in zoos or circus as a little American shown to Africans, Europeans or Chineses?
She would be well fed, have a Dr to care her… What a good life for Kelsy!

 

[Asher Kelman]

Nicolas,

It could be that Tom doesn’t care about the animals being taken from the wild as he implies. I expect that if he saw that as a result, a species like tigers were now extinct then I would guess he would think differently. At this moment his love is for a child and her being able to experience these magnificent animals first hand, so easily and safely, is simply marvelous.

The facts are that blacks and Native American, “Indians” were indeed shown in cages or exhibitions throughout USA and Europe.

If we had pigeons, mice or rats in zoos, there would be no complaints as their lack of freedom would have no effect on the survival of these mass breeders.

Lions and Tigers have very limited populations and gene pools and we are in danger of loosing them for Kelsy’s grandchildren!

No other animal has the massively varied gene pool sets as humans possess. But for big cats and many other wild animals, often the gene pool variants are counted on one hand. This makes the animals very susceptible to environmental or habitat pressures.

It’s now paradoxical that zoos are the only hope now for threatened species.

At the same time we are experiencing and expecting the continued massive loss of birds, plants, insects and amphibia.

While you are correct, Nicolas, that it’s arrogant and perhaps cruel to be capturing wild animals, (that are not dogs, sheep, goats and other domesticated animals) for our entertainment.

Still, threatened animal populations can be rebuilt from pairs mating from different zoos. That’s important.

For me, while we are losing so many species to pollution, hunting and loss of habitat, I wouldn’t want to rush to close down zoos!


Asher

 

[Tom dinning]

Asher didn't post about blacks, I did:
#8
Reading you now, I maintain my comment, it seems that you have no memory (about blacks in zoo) and even if you were not born (nor did I) a little search and read would feed your culture…
Even comfortable, at the end a zoo is a jail. Animals did not get there on their own, they were captured first!
What about if Kelsy were captured and shown in zoos or circus as a little American shown to Africans, Europeans or Chineses?
She would be well fed, have a Dr to care her… What a good life for Kelsy!

Sorry.
I got the quotes mixed.

Same goes, though.

Having my grand daughter in a cage is far from any sort of fact.
Exaggerated hypotheticals don’t form part of a logical argument.
Nor do I need to “feed [my] culture”, thanks Nicolas.

The existence of such atrocities is not to be ignored but knowing that doesn’t immediately imply I will thing about them in the same sense as you.

On this day there was an opportunity to educate. The lessons learned by myself and Kelsy will be determined by the processing of the information. Whether we are in agreement with the ethics is not an issue for this occasion, only in your interpretation of the photo.

I’m happy to listen to what you have to say. I might or might not agree.
What takes place between grand father and grand daughter is intimate and often personal.
I will discuss the situation with her as I have already.

But be assured, I would not take away the joy of the day from her or me.

 

[Tom dinning]

How do we feel about fish in a tank?

 

[Asher Kelman]

How do we feel about fish in a tank?

View attachment 1569

We don’t really know. But likely as not, the great whales with fixed cervical spines would feel more constrained by the limited tanks that those few with flexible necks!

The ability to lithely twist and turn in tight spaces requires such flexible neck-joints in the cervical vertebrae. Unfortunately those giant fish or sea mammals with fused cervical spines cannot so easily maneuver in very tight spaces!

Asher

 

[Tom dinning]

We don’t really know. But likely as not, the great whales with fixed cervical spines would feel more constrained by the limited tanks that those few with flexible necks!

The ability to lithely twist and turn in tight spaces requires such flexible neck-joints in the cervical vertebrae. Unfortunately those giant fish or sea mammals with fused cervical spines cannot so easily maneuver in very tight spaces!

Asher

I tried getting a blue whale into the fish tank so I could find out what it thought.
No luck.
Whales don’t talk my language. It just squeaked a lot.
The goldfish objected somewhat but soon forgot about it.

Is that why we can put sardines in small tins?

 

[nicolas claris]

How do we feel about fish in a tank?

Not any better, like birds in a cage

 

[Asher Kelman]

I tried getting a blue whale into the fish tank so I could find out what it thought.
No luck.
Whales don’t talk my language. It just squeaked a lot.
The goldfish objected somewhat but soon forgot about it.

Is that why we can put sardines in small tins?

It’s sad that you, Tom, joke but this is unacceptable.

So I take your bait!

Could be that you had the same schooling as Donald Trump and have zero interest in the fate of the planet. But I doubt that!

Rather, you seem to be the fellow who struts, (not by having something showy like a Lamborghini), but by posing as disinterested in matters polite folk think about as critical for humanity.

I cannot know your heart and mind, but I would bet you want these magnificent cetacean creatures to survive. I don’t think you really are disinterested in whether or not these animals suffer.

Most whales cannot flex the cervical spine as it’s naturally fused.,This means that they need 199 times the space to make other sea mammals comfortable and the exhibition tanks are very limited in size.

Furthermore, whales of any species are self divided into isolated long term family units in different parts of the oceans and putting differently sourced animals together by ignorant exhibitors has led to deaths of these massive but intelligent mammals!

Tom, you may joke, but despite your carefully cultivated flippant attitude, you are not as heartless as you try to portray.

If you can treasure your daughter, it will not harm your “street cred” to show equal compassion for the creatures children admire and value, without your obnoxious reserve, pretend or not!

Part of your “swagger” is to be this close to the backwoods dismisser and cynic to civilized values. But beyond your penchant for rudeness, which is inescapably obvious, my reading is that you are one of the brightest, aware and articulate fellows I would trust with care of these creatures of the wild!

You just like your invective, sparring wit and appearance as a Darwin-outbacker with much more insight to life than the self-indulged, spoiled, Bordeaux-wine-sniffing elites, who frequent art shows and salons of poetry in the big cities!

Asher

 

[Tom dinning]

I’m lost for words; momentarily.

So, now, my sense of humour is being monitored and chastised.

The standard response here at home is: “You’re not funny, Tom/Dad/Pop”

That’s usually enough to send me in search of another and more appreciative audience.

This response of yours, Ash, is a gem I will print and stick to the fridge along with the shopping list, a Telcom bill, and the magnetic stickers from sundry advertisers.

As for my views on caged animals and such.

Well, I might not express myself as sternly and passionately as others. I might not care as much. I certainly don’t demonstrate or blockage.

Nevertheless less, I believe I am entitled to a variance of the general objections. Why, I might even enjoy the zoo, keep goldfish and have a chook in a cage for my daily egg supplies.

None of this despicable behaviour of mine would exclude me from having an opinion, disagreeing with other, having a sense of humour or giving a poke with a sharp stick to those who have taken my simple illustration of a young woman enjoying a brief encounter with another mammal to an academic and somewhat unrealistic protest, especially when the views of the photographer and subject is unknown and , seemingly, declared unacceptable.

Our might have been better of just erasing my comment. At least, then, I’d know you don’t have a sense of humour.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Tom,

It was Nicolas’ comments that turned up the environmental heat, not mine. I have always put a 3 meter private fence about your own opinions:

1. I have zero motivation to judge you
2. I have no idea what you really think
3. I know you put on an attitude and that “what you tell me” is not to be read as actually “you”!

However, once the subject of cruelty to animals is raised and you not only make light of it, but appear to delight in mocking our concerns, then my own attention is drawn to your baiting on the subject.

I could, of course ignore it all as I have no idea when you are strutting and poking at us “effete snobs”, or when you are saying your mind.

I am not at all interested in trying to educate a well informed articulate man like you on the environment. Rather since you are extraordinarily expressive and humorous, I don’t want others to imagine that what you are saying holds validity to our society, irrespective of what motivates you to be so dismissive of animal welfare.

For example, likely as not, confining whales that cannot turn easily in small spaces to commercial show park aquaria is cruel. These are highly intelligent mammals with complex languages and I reasonably assume they are sentient creatures akin to us, and deserve our respect!

I am not criticizing or judging you. That’s not my purpose and my regrets and apologies if that’s what you think. I just want to set the record straight for folk who have no idea, (about your personal avidity for poking fun at sacred cows), that caging wild animals is cruel.

Your pet bird or farm chickens are not imho set any threat either!

Asher

 

[Tom dinning]

“I am not criticizing or judging you. That’s not my purpose and my regrets and apologies if that’s what you think. I just want to set the record straight for folk who have no idea, (about your personal avidity for poking fun at sacred cows), that caging wild animals is cruel.”

If I don’t have any sacred cows, how do I recognise those of others?
And if I am informed, which part of logical reasoning prevents me from challenging such ideas?

Then, of course, I might ask: is the said Sacred Cow kept in a pen to protect it, encapsulate it or eat it?

 

[Asher Kelman]

But you do have many sacred treasures yourself which at least as sacrosanct as concern for caged wild animals.

You would protect your beloved family for one. There you would make no compromise to their happiness and safety that was in your feasible control.

Nothing further need be said. Other folk might abandon their family. You, however, set her an example. You in fact not only teach her at the zoo, you also treasure her too! So there you are! You have yourself defined some person sacred to you!

So you have your core example.

Asher