Some thoughts re. a certain kind of posters

[Cem_Usakligil]

Firstly, let me start by stating that I am writing this as an OPF member like anybody else and not in official capacity as a moderator. It is regarding a certain group of posters about which I have been having mixed feelings.

It will come as no surprise that we have many sorts of posters. Some of them are prolific in posting, some others not. There are those who post pictures and those who only deliver C&C. Mostly, we have a large group of lurkers who almost never post anything. Obviously, there are many variations and endless combinations, i.e. what we call the OPF community. I welcome all of this wholeheartedly. After all, variation is the spice of life. Nevertheless, I have been worried about one particular group. I know that it makes no difference what I feel about these things personally. So the reason why I am putting this into writing is not because I would want to convince anybody else, on the contrary. I am simply hoping that if I you would voice your honest opinions on this matter, we might have a common consciousness and perhaps even some common understanding about it. It will no longer be something which bothers some of you out there (like it did bother me) at some level of consciousness.

The specific type of poster I am referring to is one who periodically posts his/her pictures (one or two at a time) in certain forums. Usually with a minimal introduction and a possible referral to a blog/website where more of this can be seen. The pictures are usually good to excellent and as such they add value to OPF. However, the poster does not participate further in any other on-going discussions in OPF. He/she does not deliver any C&C to others' pictures. When others react to his/her posts with their C&C, he/she abstains from engaging in a real discussion but merely thanks for the feedback given. After that, some time passes and he/she posts yet another picture and the whole cycle repeats itself. I guess you all shall know what I am talking about by now.

My personal conclusion is that the main reason why these posters are posting in OPF is to promote their own pictures; they do not care much about OPF in general. Web research indicates that most of these posters are usually posting the very same pictures in 2-3 large photo forums simultaneously. So on the one hand we have some indifferent posters pursuing their own personal agenda and using OPF to achieve it and on the other, we get to enjoy some good pictures every now and then (even though we always have said that OPF is not a photo sharing site). Hence my mixed feelings about it. Gradually, I have come to terms with it as I respect every individual poster and their personal motivations should make no difference as long as they respect the rules and regulations of OPF. Speaking of which, the posts by these members can be seen as advertising which we do not allow if a member is not active within the OPF community. One could argue that they do not comply with that criteria. Anyway, these are all shades of gray and I do not claim that my personal conclusions are the right ones; you will undoubtedly have differing ones. Having said that, I have been abstaining from delivering any C&C to those posters' pictures, which is my personal way of refusing to be used by somebody in a unilateral manner. Just my Euro 0.02...


Cheers,

 

[Jim Galli]

I'll comment as I fit at least part of your descriptor.

I'm not a terribly good fit at OPF. Digital is something I use for necessary work where I make a living and for pictures of things I want to sell. I don't have much heart for it as an artistic medium, although I do plan to dabble a bit with some lens experiments in soft focus color.

Since I'm a square peg in a round hole, most of what gets posted here doesn't appeal to me and most of what I post doesn't appeal to the folk who are a better fit at this site. Thus if I were to speak my mind on every post I go and look at, it would be........well,...........negative. That's pointless so 99.8 times I just move on.

Last week I called someone's work digital trash and felt badly later on for saying that. Again, nothing at all would have been a better response.

So, leave some room for us square pegs.

 

[Asher Kelman]

I'll comment as I fit at least part of your descriptor.

I'm not a terribly good fit at OPF. Digital is something I use for necessary work where I make a living and for pictures of things I want to sell. I don't have much heart for it as an artistic medium, although I do plan to dabble a bit with some lens experiments in soft focus color.

Since I'm a square peg in a round hole, most of what gets posted here doesn't appeal to me and most of what I post doesn't appeal to the folk who are a better fit at this site. Thus if I were to speak my mind on every post I go and look at, it would be........well,...........negative. That's pointless so 99.8 times I just move on.

Last week I called someone's work digital trash and felt badly later on for saying that. Again, nothing at all would have been a better response.

So, leave some room for us square pegs.

Frankly Jim, I'd never have thought you'd fit it to this new category Cem has recognized. Your work helps folks here see what's possible with classic lenses and mastery of the camera. That alone is worthy. Besides, you do comment enough on other matters beyond you own pictures and so would not be the person Cem refers to anyway.

Still, if you only showed your pictures I'd be delighted as each and every image gives us a thrill!

Asher

 

[Cem_Usakligil]

Hi Jim,

I'll comment as I fit at least part of your descriptor.

I'm not a terribly good fit at OPF. Digital is something I use for necessary work where I make a living and for pictures of things I want to sell. I don't have much heart for it as an artistic medium, although I do plan to dabble a bit with some lens experiments in soft focus color.

Since I'm a square peg in a round hole, most of what gets posted here doesn't appeal to me and most of what I post doesn't appeal to the folk who are a better fit at this site. Thus if I were to speak my mind on every post I go and look at, it would be........well,...........negative. That's pointless so 99.8 times I just move on.

Last week I called someone's work digital trash and felt badly later on for saying that. Again, nothing at all would have been a better response.

So, leave some room for us square pegs.

Firstly, let me make it absolutely clear that I was not referring to you. The group I have in mind do not interact with others outside of their own threads, ever. When I say interaction, I do not limit it to C&C for others' pictures. It can be any kind of posts in threads other than one's own, regardless of the frequency or the quantity. And you do interact with others.

Re. your plea for leaving some room for the square pegs, I respectfully think it is not applicable here. You see, I wasn't trying to limit the freedom of any poster (which would be a vain attempt anyway). I am sorry I may have failed to make it clear in my post although I tried to.


Cheers,

 

[Ken Tanaka]

Cem --
I think you need to tie a bow on your observations and conclusions. Give us one sentence that sums the propulsion behind your mini-thesis. Example: "Hit-and-run photo posters are scum!" OK, that's a little strong, but you get the idea of what I'm asking. You meander between revulsion and compassion in your treatise. Which is it?

 

[Cem_Usakligil]

Ken --

Cem --
I think you need to tie a bow on your observations and conclusions. Give us one sentence that sums the propulsion behind your mini-thesis. Example: "Hit-and-run photo posters are scum!" OK, that's a little strong, but you get the idea of what I'm asking. You meander between revulsion and compassion in your treatise. Which is it?

I do not see how you conclude that I meander between revulsion and compassion. Nowhere in my text I have hidden such strong emotions. Meander I did though.

If I would summarize my conclusions in two sentences it would be: I do not like posters who are here just to advertise their own products and couldn't care about anybody else or OPF for that matter. I do not want to limit anybody's way of participating in OPF but I personally neglect the group mentioned above. That's all.

Cheers,

 

[Asher Kelman]

Cem --
I think you need to tie a bow on your observations and conclusions. Give us one sentence that sums the propulsion behind your mini-thesis. Example: "Hit-and-run photo posters are scum!" OK, that's a little strong, but you get the idea of what I'm asking. You meander between revulsion and compassion in your treatise. Which is it?

Ken,

I admire your words at the tip of a sword! You do get to the point! Even though it's a challenging thrust, that hurts a little, I still like the question.


So, Cem,

What's the drive behind your complaint? Is it that we should do something we are not doing enough of right now?

Asher

 

[fahim mohammed]

Cem, I fit in one ( more, some , all ) of the categories you mention.

Our resident ' art critics ' might consider my postings ' digital trash '. Good.

Re: entering into a ' give and take ' exercise. I am all for it. I shall make the first move. Maybe even the next one. After that I shall just ignore them.

I post on two forums. This one and getdpi. I see people from here hanging around there too. No photo posts. Ever.

Then there are those that talk ( or write ), with only very minimal photo postings. I prefer to post.
My best. What I am capable of. On show for all to see. No links to sites. I do not provide critique. I am not capable to judge the work of others.

My understanding of OPF is to share, in my case the world we see and live in. Through photographs, primarily. Not endless talk and links and ' holier than thou ' self appointed critics of the works of others.

Now, Cem, who are you talking about?

 

[Cem_Usakligil]

Hi Asher,

...So, Cem,

What's the drive behind your complaint? Is it that we should do something we are not doing enough of right now?

I have answered this before when I wrote:

... So the reason why I am putting this into writing is not because I would want to convince anybody else, on the contrary. I am simply hoping that if I you would voice your honest opinions on this matter, we might have a common consciousness and perhaps even some common understanding about it. It will no longer be something which bothers some of you out there (like it did bother me) at some level of consciousness.

....I do not want to limit anybody's way of participating in OPF but I personally neglect the group mentioned above.

Cheers,

 

[Asher Kelman]

Cem and Ken,

Let me answer from my perspective. I too get fed up with folk who seem to only show their work and not ever participate or folk who always comment in a brief vacuous praise without adding value.

I take the folk to task privately. One person was severely ill and to do the photography took all the strength possible and maybe none was left. Another fellow, a businessman, wants to get his links seen as many times as possible, so does participate, but I see through that and warn him privately.

Yet another simultaneously puts his identical post in 3-4 different fora, for what benefit, I have no clue! Hardly a reaction to comments and little involvement. So I confront the behavior, again privately and for a while, there's an improvement.

So I think what you see is partly the nature of some isolated photographers and then partly simple advertising. It's our job to gently nudge folk to see OPF as a community and not a bulletin board!

Really for every photograph one posts, there should be one real set of feedback to some other picture. That way, we have some fair interchange!

Asher

 

[Cem_Usakligil]

Hi Fahim,

Cem, I fit in one ( more, some , all ) of the categories you mention.

Our resident ' art critics ' might consider my postings ' digital trash '. Good.

Re: entering into a ' give and take ' exercise. I am all for it. I shall make the first move. Maybe even the next one. After that I shall just ignore them.

I post on two forums. This one and getdpi. I see people from here hanging around there too. No photo posts. Ever.

Then there are those that talk ( or write ), with only very minimal photo postings. I prefer to post.
My best. What I am capable of. On show for all to see. No links to sites. I do not provide critique. I am not capable to judge the work of others.

My understanding of OPF is to share, in my case the world we see and live in. Through photographs, primarily. Not endless talk and links and ' holier than thou ' self appointed critics of the works of others.

You know well we are in agreement here.

..Now, Cem, who are you talking about?

Obviously, not you. And please don't ask me to mention any names.

PS: Here is a hint for anybody out there who reads this and wonders whether he/she might be included in my specific group. The answer is very easy: the moment you have asked the question, you have disqualified yourself.


Cheers,

 

[fahim mohammed]

In one big ( for some ) sentence, this is my thesis..

Posting your photographic work on OPF regularly allows you to be taken seriously; else join a chat forum.

 

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Cem --
I think you need to tie a bow on your observations and conclusions. Give us one sentence that sums the propulsion behind your mini-thesis. Example: "Hit-and-run photo posters are scum!" OK, that's a little strong, but you get the idea of what I'm asking. You meander between revulsion and compassion in your treatise. Which is it?

Hi Ken,

Allow me to give my take on the matter. I know Cem as a person who speaks from his heart. I also know he truely cares about the well-being of OPF and its members. Hence his concerns.

If I read him right, he's essentially stating that a community (any community, I might add) can only thrive by the principle of reciprocity. BTW, it's exactly how human societies function, until they fail ... As soon as someone only acts for his/her own gain/promotion, IOW doesn't interact, the one-way approach is subconsciously seen as a threat to the principle that makes society work, and rightly so.

There is an analogy with the posts with no reaction. I know Asher hates that too. The subconscious reason is because it conflicts with the principle of reciprocity. It's a threat to continuity in the long run.

That is something different than having difficulty finding the right words to give in exchange for someone who posts an image. A poster can make things easier (here comes the gift for reciprocity) by sharing some background. Why was an image taken, what challenges had to be overcome to achieve it, was special equipment required, has the experience been positive, is it something to recommend, can something be learned from it, etc.?

After such a gift, who can resist to answer? Reciprocity strikes, and everybody gains.

That will not happen if people only share their own photo's and demonstrate no interest in others whatsoever. It is experienced as a violation of the principle that makes OPF work, and it leaves people unhappy in the end. What Cem seems to be saying to whom it may concern, that is not how we should treat others. It's fine to post beautiful images, but also show some sincere interest in the fellow travellers on the tour bus called OPF (as Asher tends to say). They in turn will also show more interest in the images that are posted, especially when it's obvious that some work has been put into presenting it.

Cheers,
Bart

 

[Asher Kelman]

I do not provide critique. I am not capable to judge the work of others.

Fahim,

Feedback is not "judging" someones work as an "art critic". Do you like it? Does it move you? Ideas or hints for the photographer? Similar work you know of?

As an example, look at post # 69 here. With few words, Michael Nagel added to our appreciation of Leonardo's picture, posted way back in October 2010! That takes nothing more than exploring, and reacting!

That's the best give and take. Far more succinct than my own comments!

Asher

 

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

My understanding of OPF is to share, in my case the world we see and live in. Through photographs, primarily. Not endless talk and links and ' holier than thou ' self appointed critics of the works of others.

Now, Cem, who are you talking about?

Fahim, I'm 110% sure Cem was not thinking about you.

You are a story-teller, possibly something to do with your cultural background, and your language is images. But you are not only a story-teller, you also show interest in what others post. You are not here for you, you are here for us all, and you take us along on your beautiful voyages. Much appreciated!

Cheers,
Bart

 

[fahim mohammed]

Bart, I know Cem. We, Cem and me , hold similar views on a few things at OPF.

Asher, here is what I posted earlier:

" Re: entering into a ' give and take ' exercise. I am all for it. I shall make the first move. Maybe even the next one. After that I shall just ignore them. "

Feedback, is a two way street. I do not have the patience of Ayub ( Jacob PBUH ) to suffer those that
are intolerant of others and those that do not possess even a modicum of courtesy to acknowledge those that have taken the time and effort to comment on their posts.

Once, as Mr. Goldfinger said, is coincidence, an oversight. Experience it twice, I have no use for such.

p.s Bart..thank you. Guess you remembered ' a thousand and one nights '!!

 

[Georg R. Baumann]

Cem, did you take a convolution pill today?

You have a forum in the open realm of the Internet or you have a VPN with private members access only.

There are only very few pros here that do this work for a living, may be 10 or so, of which 90% do not post here on a regular basis.

If people from Radjahookistan or I don't know come here, and shock and awe post a picture with a link and disappear again ... what's the problem?

Do you really think they gain anything by this activity? I doubt it.

As long as the fora are not flooded with shock and awe type posts, personally I could not care a flying bull.

 

[Ken Tanaka]

I (re-)learned my lesson last week NOT to get involved in online debate. So I'll mainly nod and pass rather than discuss the issue.

But since I provoked Cem earlier I will take a moment to explain my own perspective.

I will only very rarely post an image here My reasons are simple. I am not a snob but photo forums are simply not how I want to present my work to the world. Posting one-off souvenirs out of their conceptual contexts might be interesting for some folks to see but I'm not a trophy shooter. I strive to create, and nearly always organize, my images within a conceptual and communicative framework. Meaningful discussion for me would have to take place at a conceptual and visual communications level that's much different than what's normally conducted here. I have, as you may remember, offered images that I use to contribute to bodies of discussion (Asher's sunsets) or to illustrate a point. But you'll simply never see me post an image thread here or anywhere else.

I also only occasionally comment on others' images, and then only if comment is explicitly solicited. The reason for this, other than time consumption, is also simple: devoting the time it takes to offer genuinely thoughtful commentary is not really productive for either party. Overwhelmingly the images presented here are personal snapshots that cannot be re-staged after being informed of others' "feedback". So ultimately such "critiques" come down to "should you crop it" or "should you make it b&w". If this type of "feedback" is useful and sustaining to you, more power to you. But I believe that beyond guidance toward the most basic camera skills, individual critique of one-off snaps is uselessly unproductive.

Two years ago I swore-off spending any time on any photo forums, a vow I've largely kept. OPF is the only place I regularly visit and the only place where I type at all. This is mainly because its focus is not manically devoted to camera gear. I generally limit my participation here to occasionally offering peripheral information that others might find interesting or helpful, to the extent of my knowledge (although even that can bite me in the butt).

If someone is genuinely interested in seeing my work they can simply click on my signature at any time to visit my online galleries. If someone wants to discuss one of my images I'd be glad to repost it here for such purpose. (BTW since I've begun detailed tracking of my site's traffic sources in early January only a tiny handful ( < 15 ) of visitors came from OPF.)

But that's just my perspective.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Meaningful discussion for me would have to take place at a conceptual and visual communications level that's much different than what's normally conducted here. I have, as you may remember, offered images that I use to contribute to bodies of discussion (Asher's sunsets) or to illustrate a point. But you'll simply never see me post an image thread here or anywhere else.

Ken,

I appreciate your straightforward approach. I and a lot of others have expanded our horizons because of your input. When you've submitted a picture to a theme, it helps broaden the discussion and sets a new direction for people to look towards. References to styles, realities, work that we can enjoy that you value, all add up to being such a valued member.

For sure, we cannot and should not require anything but the contributions folk are set up to bring to us.

We have to value each individual on their own merits.

Also, forgive their excesses .... I depend on it!

Asher

 

[fahim mohammed]

Also, forgive their excesses ....

Asher

and ours...

I am sure that was in your thoughts.

 

[Ken Tanaka]

Re-reading this thread and my comments I'd like to ammend one point that I omitted earlier.

Avocational photography is a social communications activity and medium. There's a reason that (as I've read) more images rain into Flickr every day than were captured throughout the 19th century; people love to show their snaps! The fact that the highest form of commentary on Flickr is "Awesome capture!" is exactly the point. That's all it takes to keep the snowball rolling there. It's all about getting that little endorphin reward from seeing positive reactions to your photos. Just like Facebook, Twitter, etc. it's all about "ME", like it or not.

My point is this: if some people choose to use OPF as a Flickr, which they do, I think that's fine. If they don't comment on others images, so what? Why should anyone resent shameless self-promotion here? I mean c'mon, splashing snaps across 10 photo chat forums is hardly going to get anyone an invitation to the Venice Biennale or a solo show at the Jeu de Paume. After all, the folks that hang around these sites are ... other amateur photographers! Hardly a productive audience for self-promotion.

Look, it's simple. People want to read "Awesome capture!" reactions to their snaps. Most have no interest in getting or offering anything resembling serious criticism. I see nothing wrong with that. Hit-and-run photo posters aren't really distractions and drain no resources here, particularly since their images are not hosted on this site. I think you have to accept that that's simply part of the nature of what you're claiming to celebrate here. When/if drive-by posters get no endorphin rewards here they'll move on. If they do get positive reactions they might gradually become more involved in chatting at OPF.

 

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Hi Ken,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, I mean that.

My point is this: if some people choose to use OPF as a Flickr, which they do, I think that's fine.

Which is exactly the point that was raised; OPF is not Flicker. OPF aspires to be something else, "more". OPF certainly doesn't want to become another Flicker!

Look, it's simple. People want to read "Awesome capture!" reactions to their snaps. Most have no interest in getting or offering anything resembling serious criticism.

You state that as a given fact. I'm not so sure. One can arrive at interesting conclusions when delving into the visitor statistics. The best (re-)visited threads show that there is a huge interest in other types of threads/subjects than just another pretty picture or a casual weekend snap. It is exactly that kind of analysis that has fed Cem's concerns, and I'm glad he was brave enough to raise them in the form of a provocative thought.

I see nothing wrong with that. Hit-and-run photo posters aren't really distractions and drain no resources here, particularly since their images are not hosted on this site.

Not yet.

When/if drive-by posters get no endorphin rewards here they'll move on. If they do get positive reactions they might gradually become more involved in chatting at OPF.

You have very positive expectations of humanity, I like that. Personally, I am a bit more sceptical, I think it may have a negative impact on the pleasant atmosphere at OPF if the balance is disrupted.

Again, thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Cheers,
Bart

 

[Georg R. Baumann]

It is getting a bit philosophical, nothing wrong with that.

I would emphasize Ken's point of a 'ME' phenomenon, but now I have to take care of a giganormous pasta al forno, otherwise I am in deep ****. LOL

 

[Georg R. Baumann]

It is getting a bit philosophical, nothing wrong with that.

I would emphasize Ken's point of a 'ME' phenomenon, but now I have to take care of a giganormous pasta al forno, otherwise I am in deep ****. LOL

****ing censorship....LOL

 

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, Ken,

Awesome essay!

Best regards,

Doug

 

[Don Ferguson Jr.]

I mean c'mon, splashing snaps across 10 photo chat forums is hardly going to get anyone an invitation to the Venice Biennale or a solo show at the Jeu de Paume. After all, the folks that hang around these sites are ... other amateur photographers! Hardly a productive audience for self-promotion.

Are you an amateur if you have to goggle those locations . LOL

 

[Ken Tanaka]

Hi, Ken,

Awesome essay!

Best regards,

Doug

Hilarious, Doug!

 

[fahim mohammed]

Awesome Flickr has awesome full size captures from the awesome Fujifilm X100.

Awesome news.

 

[Don Ferguson Jr.]

The fact that the highest form of commentary on Flickr is "Awesome capture!" is exactly the point. That's all it takes to keep the snowball rolling there. It's all about getting that little endorphin reward from seeing positive reactions to your photos.

This Photograph deserves another "Fl♥ckr Extraordinary Capture Award".

 

[Asher Kelman]

and ours...

I am sure that was in your thoughts.

Yes,

I would hope folk forgive my excesses too!

Asher