Some thoughts re. a certain kind of posters

[Rachel Foster]

I have been remiss in contributing to this forum, in both comment and images. I just wanted to say that when I post an image, I want critique. I want to know what's wrong with it, what's right with it, and how to make it better. The comments I've received here have been of enormous help in my growth as a would-be photographer. If I want "awesome capture" I'll show my friends and family. Unfortunately, I get little else from them even if I show them absolute crap. (Specific to Ken: Your comments have been particularly helpful, as have the comments of several others here.)

I'm currently in a photographic slump. Since I have little to offer right now, I've not said much. But, please know, I'm still here and will hopefully soon see the return of my muse.

One final point: I, too, get frustrated with hit and run posters UNLESS their images are stunning.

That's $.02 worth (which in Michigan is currently on the minus side of the ledger!).

 

[Ben Rubinstein]

Do all who post invite critique and discussion? Don't many just want to share? I read through Fahim's posts for example as an interesting insight into his thoughts and to be shown interesting sights from an interesting individual with an interesting perspective. Yes I could pick many of the photos or even photographic philosophies apart but don't see that it would be at all productive or condusive to the intention of the poster. I'd rather just sit back and enjoy rather than be anal about others work to be honest.

Let's be honest, there are a zillion ways to skin a cat (really?) and a zillion philosophies in art where the only, really the only thing that matters in art is the fact that it's an expression of the artist. Even if no one ever turns up or sees it. We all have different tastes in art and one mans poison is anothers well spent investment in a splodge of paint on a torn canvas.

My point is that the intent of art should come from the artist themselves, the dissection of that intent by others is IMO a disservice in many cases. If an artist specifically asks for critique that is one thing, to offer it unasked for from a subjective perspective is, IMO rightly so, not constructive. Mainly because it will always by definition be subjective, a very dangerous word to use when critiquing art.

This is why I'm mainly active on gear forums or subforums, I'm not inviting discussion on my art as it's not done for any other reason other than my own expression of myself. Either it works for the viewer or it doesn't but the fact that it does or not is not particularly relevant to my mission of creating a vision unless I would be doing it specifically to flip a switch in the viewer which is a rather commercial take on the production of art in my own personal opinion.

The comments 'appeals to me because' or 'doesn't appeal to me because', if indeed the subject is open for such discussion, are about as far as I would want to go in commenting on an image. My response could not be anything other than my own opinion which is almost certainly not shared by many or even most of the world so it has to be put into perspective.

Asher asked for my thoughts on an image posted here a couple of months ago. I had seen it and not commented. To be frank it was compositionally a huge clash and did not do anything whatsoever for me. I favour a very simple composition, this was the opposite, I like clean lines, these clashed, it broke compositional rules but not to the benefit of the image, at least IMO. The guy had taken a lot of time and effort over the image as was evident by the write up and many posted congratulations. What on earth would be the point of writing up the many failings I believed the image to have? Most did not share my opinion evidently, the guy had worked hard on it and it worked for him. In other words the only possible critique (unasked for) that I could have offered would have either caused a heated discussion and would have been a downer for this hard working photographer. All for what, the fact I believe I have a right to force my negative opinion in art appreciation unshared by many?

There is an individual who posts here whose work in the past few years has in my opinion gone down hill gravely. A recent photo here would have been a perfect example and platform for me to express my misgivings on his later style. However he is a very successful photographer who has obviously made a very conscious decision to change their style and therefore my opinion is not of their work but of their style which they have chosen. I could write but for what possible benefit other than to cause trouble?

I commented on a photo today that I think really worked, the emotion, the lines, they all worked. I would have preferred it with much shallower DOF but the poster can't go back and reshoot it, they may not share my love of shallow DOF anyway. I can only share my vision I cannot reshape the vision of others unless they ask me to specifically and let's be frank, 99% don't want use to, not really.

To sum up: If specific critique is requested and the poster realises that the following critique will be very much subjective, ok, if the image interests me enough I'll post, I won't comment just to have done it and dislike the feel that there might be an obligation to do so. I won't post critique when the poster just wants to share and allow others to join in their vision, I'd prefer just to enjoy the work. Picking apart a photographers intentions without specific invitation is I believe misguided at best and possibly rude at worst.

Most of all, communities build themselves, other forums all build themselves. Let the forum be what the people make of it or dictate that it has to be specifically X, trying to suggest subtely that it should be something and then getting upset when it isn't seems to me to be counter productive in the long term.

 

[Asher Kelman]

My point is that the intent of art should come from the artist themselves, the dissection of that intent by others is IMO a disservice in many cases.

Hi Ben,

We start at exactly the same point and assumption. The intent of the art is governed by the artist. I have written about the "arc of intent" and the "arc of communication". The former is completed when the artist is satisfied. The latter is often up to the winds. If we also appreciate it, that's great, it might dell, but art if already created when the artist has the thrill and satisfaction he/she imagine the work would evoke.

We do not "dissect" intent. However we do ask for it or else we have no idea where to place it. A museum does this by a collection and an introduction. So we ask for some guidelines so we can look at the image from as near to the POV and wishes of the artist as possible.

Your work on Yemin Moshe is a perfect example of a job well done. We know your intent and the context and get confused.

Introducing one's work and building a body of pictures is kind and generous to us and also enhances each photographer's work.

Asher

 

[Asher Kelman]

Do all who post invite critique and discussion? Don't many just want to share? I read through Fahim's posts for example as an interesting insight into his thoughts and to be shown interesting sights from an interesting individual with an interesting perspective.

for this we have the Prefix: Fun or Sharing: no critique expected!

I too enjoy all of Fahim's travel images. Some are seared in my mind. Others I enjoy and go on. His work is one of the most beneficial to the forum. We don't have to critique every single picture, just at least show we appreciate what is shared!

 

[Asher Kelman]

To sum up: If specific critique is requested and the poster realises that the following critique will be very much subjective, ok, if the image interests me enough I'll post, I won't comment just to have done it and dislike the feel that there might be an obligation to do so. I won't post critique when the poster just wants to share and allow others to join in their vision, I'd prefer just to enjoy the work. Picking apart a photographers intentions without specific invitation is I believe misguided at best and possibly rude at worst.

Ben,

There are enough images posted just to enjoy. We should acknowledge them when we have a good experience or learn from them! No treatise is wanted or required! Just a hi and thanks! I extract from your post two apparent options:

• Let the forum be what the people make of it
  
• or dictate that it has to be specifically X,

We try to give the clear opportunity for both. That's the purpose of the Prefix options we have. It's up to the photographer when posting pictures to designate how the image will be treated.

What Cem is asking for is that folk also invest in other's work. There must be a Fahim one likes or a Ben who's pictures inspire one to make their own coherent series. Go to those threads and add your feelings according to the path shown by the photographer.

As I understand the nature of this process, I promise to try to refine what we ask of folks so it works for everyone's benefit. Your opinions are helpful in this respect.

Asher

 

[Ben Rubinstein]

for this we have the Prefix: Fun or Sharing: no critique expected!

I too enjoy all of Fahim's travel images. Some are seared in my mind. Others I enjoy and go on. His work is one of the most beneficial to the forum. We don't have to critique every single picture, just at least show we appreciate what is shared!

However is not that appreciation that which is being held as just 'yes man'-ing by some? Can we not appreciate or even write appreciation of an image or images without having to verbally dissect why we are enjoying them?

 

[Asher Kelman]

However is not that appreciation that which is being held as just 'yes man'-ing by some? Can we not appreciate or even write appreciation of an image or images without having to verbally dissect why we are enjoying them?

Ben,

Everyone must make their own way!

Each of us has our own level of comfort. What we do need is the courtesy of acknowledgment.

One person might just say thanks for sharing, another could be reminded of a similar work and yet another might add a suggestion of solving an issue. Yes, everyone takes risks, the posting photographer and the rest of us. But that is what makes for a community! We trust each other to err and help each other by looking at possible approaches to building and appreciating images.

What we don't want is just bland "Wow!"s or just long didactic essays. A mixture with mistakes is what makes things work. The great thing about a forum with active brains and a kind heart, is that things balance themselves out. If you must be harsh, as long as your motivation is right and you first give the positive, go ahead, describe what holds you back from full appreciation. Of course, check the prefix first and the photographer's introduction.

So I believe in a guided, self-balancing disorder! The photographer sets the rules by the prefix, provides an intro and then the rest of us respect those wishes. Often critique is requested. When I see that, I look to the background of the photographer. A newbie has to be treated more carefully, an experienced photographer with great respect. I l aways try to consider that their clients might read what I write. Still one can give feedback, even ask major confrontational questions.

If they are severe, do so privately so no one is embarrassed. The skill is in framing one's opinion.

Back to our first common precepts:

The artists intent and his/her satisfaction make for the art to exist

Whether or not we "get it" does not alter that value! Art has been created already for the artist. What we discuss here in OPF is perhaps enhancing that and then taking the next step; going public! So, for others to likely buy or buy into that work, it has to reach and engage some of us. To thus complete an "arc of communication" to us, we have to know/feel enough. So where the image does not seem to work, either

• The work needs better introduction, context
  
• or the artist should review his/her work product/final presentation/target audience

This is where feedback can be fun, rewarding and helpful to us all.

The caveat is that most advice on the internet is of little hard value. So a photographer must always shield their own original intents from erosion by the rest of us. Still, in spite of this major warning against taking critique too seriously, there's a lot of great value in OPF's way of nurturing and giving honest feedback.

I know of a number of folk here who are earning a living in part because of reinforcement found here while having a lot of amusement and fun!

Asher

 

[fahim mohammed]

Some time has gone by since this post was discussed. Seeing as some of the contributors to this thread seem to have taken a sabbatical from OPF and some new members having joined...

It would be interesting to know some of your thoughts re: this topic.

 

[Kathy Rappaport]

Posting

I lurk from time to time. But I rarely post now. I have spoken to Asher about why. I still feel as if I am part of this community. I have a professional forum that is not public in which to post for C * C but because I run a business, that cannot be public. Clients may not understand the concept.

There are many people who will post here because this site seems to up the google placement. When they post here Google sees it and gives them points and they end up higher up in Google placement. They spam this and other forums because they can and it pays.

If they still routinely do this, then they should be removed as contributors.

 

[Michael Nagel]

A question of time

For me it is strictly a question of time and what I value most a certain moment.
I lurk a lot, comment a few and post my own pictures from time to time.

What is a valuable comment? A strictly personal view:

Photography is a hobby for me - I do not to earn a living from it, nor is my work related to photography in any way
I have the enthusiast approach. I can judge from the impression a photograph makes on me. This implies my cultural context and my view, so it is always subjective.

Judging a photo on the base of the different rules as they exist is not what I consider as useful as I believe that the large majority here is at a point where the application or violation of photographic rules is part of the artistic expression and has nothing to do with ignorance of these rules.

Tastes are different - one man's thrash is another man's treasure.

What to do?
Describe the impression I get when seeing the picture.
Ask the photographer why he/she chose this view/presentation while suggesting a different view I might have chosen.

All this with due respect for the different view.

There are many photos I do not have a distinctive opinion on. Write something just to add a comment, even if it is 'awesome' ? No! In this case I prefer write nothing.

The impression my picture makes on someone is also a great help for me - it varies often a lot from what I see.

I like being here. It is just that I cannot contribute in a more regular way for the moment.

Best regards,
Michael

 

[George Holroyd]

Cem,

It's frustrating when others fail to live up to our expectations of them, isn't it? Rather than try to influence the manner in which folks use the forum, maybe it would be better to encourage participation, in whatever form that takes. As another poster mentioned: as people become more comfortable, they tend to interact more. Threads like this one don't read as very open to me.