Challenge: Guns4us: lifesavers, peacemakers or murderers? Do you have images on this?

[Jack_Flesher]

A knife, a baseball bat, a length of guitar string, an ice pick, a knitting needle, a shovel, an axe, a cycle, scissors, shears, a rock, rubber hose, lead pipe, candlestick, acid, alcohol, heroin, sleeping pills, bridges, trains, buses, car exhaust, plastic bags, fire, water, electricity, cue-sticks, cue-balls, feet and even bare hands; and the list goes on and on and on and on... But when used to kill, whether intentionally or accidentally, what makes any of them different than a firearm?

~~~

Kathy, re your petite and and timid friends, a saying from the American West comes to mind: God did not create all men equal -- Colonel Samuel Colt did. The Colt peacemaker was also referred to as the "great equalizer"...

~~~

I appreciate that many feel we have moved beyond the need for that type of equality in contemporary society. Unfortunately the facts of continued violence on our fellow human beings in urban settings tell us a very different story... Personally, I choose to be prepared to defend my family against it should similar violence approach any of us...

Best,

 

[KrisCarnmarker]

A knife, a baseball bat, a length of guitar string, an ice pick, a knitting needle, a shovel, an axe, a cycle, scissors, shears, a rock, rubber hose, lead pipe, candlestick, acid, alcohol, heroin, sleeping pills, bridges, trains, buses, car exhaust, plastic bags, fire, water, electricity, cue-sticks, cue-balls, feet and even bare hands; and the list goes on and on and on and on... But when used to kill, whether intentionally or accidentally, what makes any of them different than a firearm?

A knife - a tool to cut or carve with
a baseball bat - to hit a baseball with
a length of guitar string - essential for producing sounds on a guitar
an ice pick - a tool to break a block of ice into smaller pieces
a knitting needle - a tool to produce clothing or art
a shovel - a tool to, erm...shovel stuff with
an axe - a tool to make firewood with
a cycle - a transportation device
scissors/shears - a tool to cut paper or fabric with
a rock - a natural part of our planet
rubber hose - used to water plants to let them live
lead pipe - used to be used in plumbing
candlestick - lights up the dark
acid - helps enzymes break down food
alcohol - disinfectant
heroin - a type of morphine, used to be used for cough relief
sleeping pills - helps insomniacs
bridges - lets you cross an obstacle
trains - a transportation device
buses - a transportation device
car exhaust - a product of the combustion engine
plastic bags - used to store food items
fire - the single most important "invention"
water - is life
electricity - energy
cue-sticks - a tool used to hit a cue-ball
cue-balls - principal element of the game billiards
feet - help bipeds ambulate
bare hands - helps humans manipulate tools
firearm - a tool used to kill, maim or injure

Yes, anything can be used to kill, maim or injure somebody/something with, but the firearm was invented with the sole purpose of killing, maiming or injuring somebody/something with. Thats a huge difference!

 

[Jack_Flesher]

firearm - a tool used to kill, maim or injure

Yes, anything can be used to kill, maim or injure somebody/something with, but the firearm was invented with the sole purpose of killing, maiming or injuring somebody/something with. Thats a huge difference!

Sorry, that old argument won't hold water... It all comes back to the intent of the person using it:

Firearm: a tool used to procure food and/or defend oneself againt dangerous animals.

,

 

[Eric Hiss]

Jack,
In the context of your list, the main difference between a knitting needle and a gun is the efficiency and complete remoteness of which can be used to kill with. Death by knitting needle implies a whole lot of closeness in the act both in physical proximity and also personal knowledge.

Of course since I am not a killer, I see guns as very interesting precision made and purpose built objects. I don't fully fathom their purpose so only see the tooling and shapes. In that regard they are marvelous things.

As an aside, as a teen I read a sci-fi book where an astronaut lands on a planet inhabited by large wolf like creatures. He has a laser pistol which instantly and silently evaporates the attacking wolves in to dust. Because the wolves can't comprehend what's happened to their brethren, the continue to attack. Many years later the rescuers arrive to find the astronaut has build himself a wooden cabin type lodging. They see his gun and the wolves and say, "aren't you lucky you had that to protect yourself with?" He relies that after the batteries went out, he had to attack the wolves with wooden clubs which scared them off, but without the gun he wouldn't have been able to pound the boards of his house together.

 

[KrisCarnmarker]

Sorry, that old argument won't hold water... It all comes back to the intent of the person using it:

Firearm: a tool used to procure food and/or defend oneself againt dangerous animals.

,

Of course it hold water perfectly well. You may not like the argument but it is perfectly valid, as firearms where not invented for the purpose of procuring food or defending one's self from animals. It was invented as an instrument to kill (human) foes. The Chinese are thought to be the first, in the 13th century, and it was explicitly a weapon of warfare. It was the sole domain of the military; hunters couldn't afford firearms until hundreds of years later.

But I did not say that it was explicitly made for killing humans (which it was) only that it's purpose was to kill, main or injure. No other item on your list has that as its (intended) purpose.

I'm not saying that this is necessarily an argument against guns, but you asked what the difference was between it and the rest of your list and the difference is quite clear.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Of course it hold water perfectly well. You may not like the argument but it is perfectly valid, as firearms where not invented for the purpose of procuring food or defending one's self from animals. It was invented as an instrument to kill (human) foes. The Chinese are thought to be the first, in the 13th century, and it was explicitly a weapon of warfare. It was the sole domain of the military; hunters couldn't afford firearms until hundreds of years later.

But I did not say that it was explicitly made for killing humans (which it was) only that it's purpose was to kill, main or injure. No other item on your list has that as its (intended) purpose.

Hand-carried weapons have been around a long time. What is remarkable is that, at close quarters, little skill or strength is required and unlike poisoning, there is much less cooperation needed by the victim's behavior. The gun, being small, is easily hidden and can make a weak person able to defend against the strongest man.

Right now, where we are in human development, I think guns are needed for individual family protecton, in some countries.

As far as the Chinese are concerned, I wonder whether or not earlier civilizations got there first. for sure bioloigy did!

Not that I think the Chinese in the 13th century knew about the effectiveness of explosions in a special chamber for defense against enemies by the sharpshooting Bombardier Beetles!

"Common throughout the world, the bombardier beetle (Brachinus) has a uniquely adapted defense against predators. By producing a set of repeated chemical explosions in a combustion chamber in its abdomen, the insect creates a biological Gatling gun that can fire a pulsed jet of boiling fluid in almost any direction!"​

Source.

At least by the time of the Romans, artillery with huge balls of stone was already common using massive catapults. So that would be a a cannon! So would a bow and arrow be what we’d call a personal weapon or gun!

Is it merely the propulsion system for the bullet that is more efficient? These modern weapons are easily hidden, transported. Moreover, death is just the squeeze of a trigger; effortless! I wonder wether these discussions occured when people used clubs, swords, bows, arrows and lances to kill each other? I don't remember seeing it discussed in the Bible!

Is this discussion only taking place now with the advent of guns and an enlightened world?

Asher

 

[Jack_Flesher]

you asked what the difference was between it and the rest of your list and the difference is quite clear.

Nope... By that definition I assume you also hate the bow-and-arrow, sword, spear and axe equally? Poisons? After all, EVERY ONE OF THEM was originally intended as a killing tool, period. (Yes, even the axe!)

So no, it is not "clear" to me... Regardless of what anybody wants to claim, I do not buy that argument -- these are inanimate objects; tools WITH MULTIPLE USES and nothing more. Hate the individual that uses them in violence, and I'll agree with you all day long, but hating the tool is ridiculous.

Frankly the biggest problem I see is many of the people that "hate the tool" are the same folks that set the man free who used it commiting henious violence ... Continue to live in a state of denial about this, but mark my words: the day you (or somebody close to you) is set upon by a violent criminal, your view will change.


=> Politics aside, what do you think of my *IMAGE* ?


Cheers,

 

[Jack_Flesher]

PS: Now can we start discussing abortion?


,

 

[Georg R. Baumann]

I beg to differ with Asher, and sure no offense to our friend Nikolai, but there is no chance in Hell that I would declare this shot as art, ever, regardless what title. Then again, that's just me.

Jospeh Boys whacked out stuff like the honey pump and the art-art world had tears in their eyes for joy, right.... LOL

As for me, I saw the shot, recognised the weapon, read the title well.... and?

I did not feel invited to think about it, nothing triggered my interest or curiousity, it could pretty well be a poster hanging in the bedroom of a 14 years old beside his baseball card collection, manifestation of his adolescent wet testosterone dreams to go and become a marine or something.

Sorry for being so blunt Nikolai, but then again, you said it yourself in one breath; Powerful guns, fast cars, "fine women", sounds like early 80s Don Johnson (Miami Vice) to me. <cynical grin>

Asher, you asked whether we have images on this, here ya go.

.20cal, single fire, burst, or rapid, precision focus, 191 rounds with one magazine, remote control capability <grins>

 

[Georg R. Baumann]

P.S.

When I put in the planing application for my studio last week, I placed 24 of them in strategic points around our property, very neat .50 cal, laser guided and remote controlled, targeting distance easily 1.000 meter, and all by joystick over my computer and a handfull of screens. Even Karen can handle that in a breeze, so I suppose 2 people stand a good chance to defend our home against a horde of _____ who ever comes first! We might not get planing though....<grins>

 

[Asher Kelman]

I beg to differ with Asher, and sure no offense to our friend Nikolai, but there is no chance in Hell that I would declare this shot as art, ever, regardless what title. Then again, that's just me.

Guys,

This shows the benefit of Nikolai's work. It caused us to think! It perhaps wil move some to change things in their own minds! That, BTW can make for art!

Asher

As you can see, Georg, I refer to a process and a possibility. My first reaction was actually to look at Alien Bee catalog on line for a new battery powerpack as I had no idea this was an automatic weapon.

So for me, looking at would never trigger emotions as I didn't know what it was supposed to be. Is it Art? I don't know yet. That, by the way should be addressed to Nikolai since it's his work. Once it was identified, it made me think.

Now lets look again at Eric's 2cd image:

[/QUOTE]


Like Jack Flesher's photograph, the images is absolutely clear to almost anyone on this planet outside of the inaccessible Amazon Rain Forrest. However, Eric's composition of the gun and bullets by the red line, adds a new set of questions as to meaning.

Aren't we perhaps encouraged to think in all facets of the gun: from being a gun owner, being confronted by a gun etc

Asher

 

[Asher Kelman]

I beg to differ with Asher, and sure no offense to our friend Nikolai, but there is no chance in Hell that I would declare this shot as art, ever, regardless what title. Then again, that's just me.

Guys,

This shows the benefit of Nikolai's work. It caused us to think! It perhaps wil move some to change things in their own minds! That, BTW can make for art!

Asher

As you can see, Georg, I refer to a process and a possibility of ART.

AB?

My first reaction was actually to look at the Alien Bee strobe lighting catalog online for a new battery powerpack as I had no idea this was an automatic weapon.

So for me, looking at would never trigger emotions as I didn't know what it was supposed to be. Is it Art? I don't know yet. That, by the way should be addressed to Nikolai since it's his work. Once it was identified, it made me think. Certainly, Eric Hiss' imeage of the gun and bullets by the red line, was more powerful since it immediately

1. was seen to be a gun: we can start to think in all facets of being and opwning and being confronted by a gun etc
   
   
2. was placed by a red line
   
   
3. the bullets near by imply that with these, the gun can be made potentially lethal.
   
   
4. there is only a small distance to go, a trivial barrier that even a child can cross, to go from useless object to efficient killing machine.

I feel the same way about my cameras. If I can see the animal it would be dead if it was through a rifle scope. So why bother to kill it?

Shooting animals is not my own taste in recreation! However, having a gun might have saved Denny, the truck drive stopped and beaten on the head with bricks until his skull was cracked! (During the Los Angeles riots].

© Bob Tur Time Magazine

Asher

 

[Nikolai Sklobovsky]

Just for the record

I don't think guns or any types of weapons are inherently evil.
Instead, I find them to be a quintessence of the available technology, and often, art, at any given period of time. Greeks' shields, medieval suites of armor, napoleon grenadiers, modern tactical suites - they are both ultimately practical and as such often beautiful (the beauty is in the eye of the beholder, of course.
Thanks Asher!

 

[Asher Kelman]

Hi Georg,

Back to the question of Nikolai's gun as "Art", I have these feelings:

1. The most important issue is what the picture means to Nikolai.

2. This picture for OPF at least, has now gained importance. AFAIK, not a single major gallery has of yet placed a bid for this image. Is it ART? Well for me, i'd need to see a print and live with the picture a while. Art should have for the person to whom it has artistic value, a life of it's own with demands on the viewer. If the work leaves you cold, then indeed it's not working for you. Well that, as you's agree, does not relate to whether or not Nikolai has produced a worthy piece of work we can appreciate and come to value.

I like Nikolai's hard work in finding boundries he must test. He does put in a lot of effort to develop his syle. I believe like a lot of people here, he's developing his own voice.

When and if he arrives with recognition, we might rewind the clock and then look at this picture as important or perhaps it will still be meaningless to you and a lot of others.

My appreciation is that an image evoked reaction and debate. When that happens, one is at least alive and on some track to self discovery!

Asher

 

[KrisCarnmarker]

.. By that definition I assume you also hate the bow-and-arrow, sword, spear and axe equally?

You must be confusing me with somebody else as I've never said I hated guns.

...the day you (or somebody close to you) is set upon by a violent criminal, your view will change.

Wrong again. It has happened to me twice. I was once shot at by a security guard mistaking me for somebody else (luckily he missed). The other time I was kidnapped. At the time I was too young to have any opinion on guns, but it hardly made me love guns.

But of course weapons can be used for good as well as evil. The following is from the gate at the compound in Saudi. After the bombings started, the whole country looked like this:

Of course, every time I came home late from work and they pointed those sub machine guns at me it brought back memories of that security guard so long ago.

 

[Georg R. Baumann]

On a side note:

Weapons have been objects of fascination throughout history and have had highly symbolic meanings for many cultures, including our own. Their significance has been examined from a variety of theoretical orientations and by a number of disciplines. Self psychology provides valuable insights into the importance of weapons by viewing them as selfobjects. This perspective is useful not only for understanding pathological fascination with weapons, but also for understanding the role they play in society. - Journal of American Academy of Psychoanalysis and Dynamic Psychiatry -

Today more than 250.000 children are still engaged in using weapons in conflict zones. Facts are that since 1996, ten in thousand girls are molested and raped, 2 million children killed in armed conflict, 6 million children are left behind physically challenged by war,12 million children without any shelter.

Any picture of assult rifles does not constitute as art in my world, or it has a clear context, art in context .

We live in times where killing is a remote controlled job by joystick heros, hence the picture and ironic remark about us purchasing 24 CROW's for our property.

We live in times where weapons are again, thanks to George W., one of the most profitable businesses on the planet, besides drugs and trafficing people.

I am also a fan of Nikolai's work btw. and as I said earlier, I did not mean to offend him by this statement, by no means.

 

[Asher Kelman]

A knife, a baseball bat, a length of guitar string, an ice pick, a knitting needle, a shovel, an axe, a cycle, scissors, shears, a rock, rubber hose, lead pipe, candlestick, acid, alcohol, heroin, sleeping pills, bridges, trains, buses, car exhaust, plastic bags, fire, water, electricity, cue-sticks, cue-balls, feet and even bare hands; and the list goes on and on and on and on... But when used to kill, whether intentionally or accidentally, what makes any of them different than a firearm?

Efficiency, immediacy, concealment, effortless so that the impulse to murder possibility is now the most powerful ever reached for a personal weapon of any kind!

Since we have not advanced much in discipline, self control, valuing life and decency there is a terrible mismatch.

Maybe guns are a necessary evil, but, at the minimum, we need to be better trained morally.

Maybe we should re-consider killing as a sport?

Personally, I choose to be prepared to defend my family against it should similar violence approach any of us...

I have thought about that. After the LA Earthquake, my little children were in the street. I went back into the shaking house to get a knife for each child. Why? Because whenever people are defenseless, there are often stronger people to take advantage. I chose to defend my family as best as I could.

In the riots, where Los Angeles was on fire to the sky for miles, we had spreading violence and mayhem. A physician handed me his gun in a beautiful case in case they reached my home. I returned it, but had second thoughts later as the rioters came closer to our home. Our local police, however put sharpshooters on the roofs and patrolled the streets armed, so the marauding mob went elsewhere. So, for sure, I'm conflicted. I'm happy thay out police are well trained and well paid!

~~~~~

Now your picture, Jack!

As usual, you have arranged your composition effectively. The most prominent and focused part is the "handle" and then the trigger located in the 1/3 position. In the background are boxes of bullets. The one clip is out of the gun but nearby, indicated utter readiness but some discipline, at least.

This compositon suggests sustained power, but not impulsivity. However, it is totally at the choice of the owner, since once that clip is loaded, the weapon can be fired by whim or for just cause.

This then is a conundrum.

An efficient way to express our inner animal drive to be more powerful than the next ape, or a way to defend one's loved ones.

Either way, this picture is powerful and sombering. It gives reassurance, respect and distaste at the same time. It is in fact a metaphor for the paradox of man's progess, except for what it omits, any clear social frame of reference. But, Jack, this ,after all, is merely the a portrait of one very well engineered and even handsome gun. I'd love to see it in a social context.

Did you use tilt for this?

 

[Jack_Flesher]

As usual, you have arranged your composition effectively. The most prominent and focused part is the upper "handle" and then the trigger located in the 1/3 position. In the background are boxes of bullets. The one clip is out of the gun but nearby, indicated utter readiness but some discipline, at least.

This compositon suggests sustained power, but not impulsivity. However, it is totally at the choice of the owner, since once that clip is loaded, the weapon can be fired by whim or for just cause.

This then is a conundrum.

An efficient way to express our inner animal drive to be more powerful than the next ape, or a way to defend one's loved ones.

Either way, this picture is powerful and sombering. It gives reassurance, respect and distaste at the same time. It is in fact a metaphor for the paradox of man's progess, except for what it omits, any clear social frame of reference. But, Jack, this ,after all, is merely the a portrait of one very well engineered and even handsome gun. I'd love to see it in a social context.

Did you use tilt for this?

Thanks Asher!

Not surprisingly, I actually "posed" the firearm that way for the very reasons you mentioned -- trigger, hammer and grip clearly in focus to give attention to the "operation center" of the weapon. Yet I left the action open and locked, and the magazine while loaded and ready is not yet inserted -- both to show that safety and respect for its capability is of paramount importance for me, yet the weapon can be made ready-to-fire in an instant if necessary. The oof box of ammo in the background implies a willingness to see the chore through to completion should more than one magazine full be required to finish it. Finally, selective lighting is used to isolate the weapon from its surroundings and bring prominence to it.

I used my 50/1.4 lens on my 5D at a wide aperture to limit DoF, then further blurred the ammo the desired effect with some additional Gaussian during post. So no tilts on this one, but I could have as easily used my 45 TSE with some counter-tilt for a similar effect.

The pistol is a Kimber Custom version of the Colt 1911, and fires .45 Auto (ACP) ammunition. It has a long trigger, beaver-tail grip safety, rounded hammer spur, extended slide release and combat sights -- all quite common modifications for a .45 pistol configured for defense. Next time you're in town, I'll be happy to show it to you -- we can even head up to the local shooting range and blast some holes in targets if you'd like to fire it

Cheers,

 

[Georg R. Baumann]

A knife, a baseball bat, a length of guitar string, an ice pick, a knitting needle, a shovel, an axe, a cycle, scissors, shears, a rock, rubber hose, lead pipe, candlestick, acid, alcohol, heroin, sleeping pills, bridges, trains, buses, car exhaust, plastic bags, fire, water, electricity, cue-sticks, cue-balls, feet and even bare hands; and the list goes on and on and on and on... But when used to kill, whether intentionally or accidentally, what makes any of them different than a firearm?

Well, from the list you provided, the firearm is the only one deliberately designed to kill, hence the firearm serves no other purpose.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Well, from the list you provided, the firearm is the only one deliberately designed to kill, hence the firearm serves no other purpose.

Hi George,

You attributed the list of possible weapons to me! However it's author is actually Jack:

A knife, a baseball bat, a length of guitar string, an ice pick, a knitting needle, a shovel, an axe, a cycle, scissors, shears, a rock, rubber hose, lead pipe, candlestick, acid, alcohol, heroin, sleeping pills, bridges, trains, buses, car exhaust, plastic bags, fire, water, electricity, cue-sticks, cue-balls, feet and even bare hands; and the list goes on and on and on and on... But when used to kill, whether intentionally or accidentally, what makes any of them different than a firearm?

For which my own response was:

Efficiency, immediacy, concealment, effortless so that the impulse to murder possibility is now the most powerful ever reached for a personal weapon of any kind!

Since we have not advanced much in discipline, self control, valuing life and decency there is a terrible mismatch.

Maybe guns are a necessary evil, but, at the minimum, we need to be better trained morally.

I have corrected the format of my post, as above, to make this clear!

Asher

 

[Jack_Flesher]

And I already answered that same argument earlier in this thread George...

 

[Asher Kelman]

Here's where we are.

We have a number of choices about our use and opinions of guns. However, there are many arguments and nuances involved. Photographic images can allow this debate to be stimulated. So are we up to it?

Let's make photographs that provide some context. This is where we're skilled and artistic.

So can we meet the challenge? You have your home, kids, grandma and the local store. All natural subjects. Can you take some fast images, sketches?

If you wish perfect them later!

Asher

 

[Michael_Stones]

"crapper art"

My very first Photoshop image featured a gun, a pre-1820 model made by Smith of London. The image was for a charity art auction known as Crapper Art and amazingly sold for $75 to a local broadcaster. You can figure out that I'm not a Man. U. fan!

But onto more relevant matters ... When visiting the USA I sometimes go to the handgun section of an outfitters store to eavesdrop on the conversations between buyers and salesman (it's always a man at that store). It's amazing and would be funny if not so sad. Some examples ... A young guy buying a gun for his bride-to-be and discussing muzzle velocities and the like, until she chose the model that looked "prettiest" to her .... Dad buying Junior his first handgun and the salesman saying they have a wide range of "youth guns"! An out-of-towner trying to figure out how to buy a gun without a police check. A woman checking on a rifle with a PINK stock! Guns as fashion accessories or part of rite of passage unto manhood! And now you want to make a gun an object of art! Y'all down there gotta be nuts about guns in my humble opinion.

 

[Asher Kelman]

But onto more relevant matters ... When visiting the USA I sometimes go to the handgun section of an outfitters store to eavesdrop on the conversations between buyers and salesman (it's always a man at that store). It's amazing and would be funny if not so sad. Some examples ... A young guy buying a gun for his bride-to-be and discussing muzzle velocities and the like, until she chose the model that looked "prettiest" to her .... Dad buying Junior his first handgun and the salesman saying they have a wide range of "youth guns"! An out-of-towner trying to figure out how to buy a gun without a police check. A woman checking on a rifle with a PINK stock! Guns as fashion accessories or part of rite of passage unto manhood! And now you want to make a gun an object of art! Y'all down there gotta be nuts about guns in my humble opinion.

Michael,

Would we say to Dorothy Lange,

"So you are making suffering humanity objects of art? You gotta be nuts and worse it seems to be an attempt to make poverty romantic, like the tuberculosis of Irish writers of the early 20th century! In fact, Dorothy I think you might be exploiting them just to get your wonderful pictures and your own ego needs met!"

Michael, my friend, the gun is just as much a part of society as poverty. Art can be merely decorative, persuasive, propaganda or purposed to sell stuff.

However, there's a greater social benefit, I'd argue, for using guns as objects for art in a social context. This shoves in our face, like Lange's images, the irony of guns, tools designed to bring overwhelming force to bear at the whim of the bearer.

The poverty of the depression caused hunger. Guns cause death: some bad people some good. Poverty has little pluses. If poverty can be a subject for art, all the more reason to look at guns too!

I'd challenge you to continue with your photography including a gun as an element. See what you can come up with. Whatever your point of view, the picture should be esthetically promising in the least. One can improve it later.

Now, where do I get a gun for this??

Asher

 

[Jack_Flesher]

Actually, the real "art" here is in being able to hit the intended target with your first shot --- even if that target relatively small and 500 meters away...

And of course, a proper tool is required:

~~~


5D, 50mm lens, f2.8. A 5 minute set-up using single strobe and strategically placed reflectors.

Cheers,

 

[Michael_Stones]

A quick off-the-cuff reply to you Asher is that I don't think Lange was trying to MAKE art with the Migrant Mother image, neither was Zappa with his WW2 invasion images nor Nick Ut with his Vietnam photo. They were skilled 'journalists' who used a camera rather than a pen to make points about horrors in the reality they saw. It was only later, upon reflection and after the events they depicted were over, that viewers recognized the art in their craft. The scribbles of 'Gonzo' Thompson comes to mind as a parallel ... Having said this, of course photographers must deal with pressing issues of all kinds. And I agree that a gun can be an object of physical beauty if presented well. But to make a gun a fashion accessory (or a picture to hang on the wall) at a time when guns are a problem that many Americans don't realize they have strikes me as off the wall. However, I'll think about it some more

 

[Asher Kelman]

A quick off-the-cuff reply to you Asher is that I don't think Lange was trying to MAKE art with the Migrant Mother image, neither was Zappa with his WW2 invasion images nor Nick Ut with his Vietnam photo. They were skilled 'journalists' who used a camera rather than a pen to make points about horrors in the reality they saw. It was only later, upon reflection and after the events they depicted were over, that viewers recognized the art in their craft.

As numerous citizen photographs and film clips have shown, the average person is now part of a 4th Estate, the empowered witnesses. The ubiquitous camera has now empowered a new force of observors, witnesses and commentators.

We have given ourselves the right and purpose to explore and report on anything we wish, almost without boundries, from the magnificent and important to the trivial and sometimes even to the downright intrusive, exploitative and offensive.

If you approve of Lange and Zappa, you must approve of the rest of us, the good and the bad and the rubbish too. Just keep the gems like they do in Johannnesberg mines.

As you know I follow and admire your scholarship on Lange, I say what I do with resepct and care and no disrespect for her or you!

It's just that we have a new group now, not as talented, but still competant enough: it's us!

Asher

 

[Asher Kelman]

A Further Look at Eric's Father's Guns!

Now lets look again at Eric's 2cd image:

[/QUOTE]


Like Jack Flesher's photograph, the image is absolutely clear to almost anyone on this planet outside of the inaccessible Amazon Rain Forrest. However, Eric's composition of the gun and bullets by the red line, adds a new set of questions as to meaning.

Aren't we perhaps encouraged to think in all facets of the gun: from being a gun owner, being confronted by a gun etc

Asher

 

[Jack_Flesher]

Eric's pistol is a Smith and Wesson model 669 I think. Anyway, it is a double-action, semi-automatic 9mm pistol. His magazine is in the weapon, and the safety is "OFF" -- IOW if there is a round in the pipe, the gun is hot and ready to fire by just pulling the trigger. However, the rounds sitting on the table signify to me that perhaps the magazine is empty -- the way a pistol is supposed to be stored so as not to weaken the magazine's spring by having it fully compressed by loaded rounds for extended periods of time -- a low-threat situation.

I like the composition with the red stripe, but would prefer the hot reflection to the right not run off the edge as it draws me out of the image.

Here is my 3-minute re-work:

Cheers,

 

[Asher Kelman]

Eric's pistol is a Smith and Wesson model 669 I think. Anyway, it is a double-action, semi-automatic 9mm pistol.

I like the composition with the red stripe, but would prefer the hot reflection to the right not run off the edge as it draws me out of the image.

Here is my 3-minute re-work:

© 2007 Eric Hiss Edited by Jack Flesher

An interesting change Jack.

and here's the Eric' sorginal for reference again

Inb the original, the blown out "mess" or puddle of light seems to me to be like the potential pool of blood on a wet pavement in a street killing (justified maybe or the opposite, we don't know!

Your version adds a new cleaner look, but then I personally would then want to extend the strong red line up the picture as a stark and bold compositional feature. After all, you took the step part of the way!

I'm pleased we are looking at these good pictures carefully.

Asher