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  • Welcome to the new site. Here's a thread about the update where you can post your feedback, ask questions or spot those nasty bugs!

New coronavirus variants could require updated vaccines

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
We don't really know yet, so please take this info with a grain of salt. There are 3 known mutations of covid-19, called after the country where they were first spotted (which may not be the country they originate from): Britain, South Africa and Brazil. In Brazil in particular, the situation appears to be quite worrisome in Manaus. People are re-infected in large quantities, which is a sign that the virus has mutated in a way that their immune system does not recognise it any more.

More info:
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Jérôme,

The truth is that we’ve made our infestation of humans all over the planet so integrated that a virus injected into Johannesburg will appear in Tokyo and Los Angeles in just weeks.

We are at risk for countless new microbial threats as we continue to encroach on nature’s multitude of microbial ecosystems.

We need massive investment in bio protection:

1. To understand the evolving threats and also

2. To prepare “remedy manufacturing” with as much seriousness as we invest in nuclear weapons!

Asher
 

James Lemon

Well-known member
Jérôme,

The truth is that we’ve made our infestation of humans all over the planet so integrated that a virus injected into Johannesburg will appear in Tokyo and Los Angeles in just weeks.

We are at risk for countless new microbial threats as we continue to encroach on nature’s multitude of microbial ecosystems.

We need massive investment in bio protection:

1. To understand the evolving threats and also

2. To prepare “remedy manufacturing” with as much seriousness as we invest in nuclear weapons!

Asher
They need to be stopped at the source.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
That is possible where we intersect with the animal carriers directly by selling live wild creatures in markets.

It doesn’t cover bat droppings over fig markets where the bats primary territories have shrunk.

we need millions of bats to kill billions of disease carrying insects, so we can’t simply kill the bats!

Asher
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
So what can we do going forward?

1. immense bio-factories with trained reserve staff, as in army reserves.

ready to mass produce mRNA vaccines and various live attenuated harmless carrier virus vaccines, ready to go, like our nuclear missiles.

2. bio-factories for live virus carrier-based vaccines. In many cases proteins from dangerous microbes can be engineered into the outer coat of lab viruses as “benign carriers”. The Oxford Covid-19 Vaccine is based on such a technology.

3. massive expansion of bio research labs for bio hazardous germs, with international inspection.

4. expand research in controlling mosquitoes, ticks and other arthropod vectors!

5. an extraordinary push in biochemistry of all germs so we can design effective medicines.

Asher
 

James Lemon

Well-known member
So what can we do going forward?

1. immense bio-factories with trained reserve staff, as in army reserves.

ready to mass produce mRNA vaccines and various live attenuated harmless carrier virus vaccines, ready to go, like our nuclear missiles.

2. bio-factories for live virus carrier-based vaccines. In many cases proteins from dangerous microbes can be engineered into the outer coat of lab viruses as “benign carriers”. The Oxford Covid-19 Vaccine is based on such a technology.

3. massive expansion of bio research labs for bio hazardous germs, with international inspection.

4. expand research in controlling mosquitoes, ticks and other arthropod vectors!

5. an extraordinary push in biochemistry of all germs so we can design effective medicines.

Asher
But scientists think there is usually an intermediary — an animal infected by the bats that carries the virus into humans. With SARS, the intermediary is thought to be civet cats, which are sold in live-animal markets in China.

The origin of SARS-CoV-2 is still an open question (see ‘Family of killers’). The virus shares 96% of its genetic material with a virus found in a bat in a cave in Yunnan, China4 — a convincing argument that it came from bats, say researchers. But there’s a crucial difference. The spike proteins of coronaviruses have a unit called a receptor-binding domain, which is central to their success in entering human cells. The SARS-CoV-2 binding domain is particularly efficient, and it differs in important ways from that of the Yunnan bat virus, which seems not to infect people5.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01315-7
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
But scientists think there is usually an intermediary — an animal infected by the bats that carries the virus into humans. With SARS, the intermediary is thought to be civet cats, which are sold in live-animal markets in China.

The origin of SARS-CoV-2 is still an open question (see ‘Family of killers’). The virus shares 96% of its genetic material with a virus found in a bat in a cave in Yunnan, China4 — a convincing argument that it came from bats, say researchers. But there’s a crucial difference. The spike proteins of coronaviruses have a unit called a receptor-binding domain, which is central to their success in entering human cells. The SARS-CoV-2 binding domain is particularly efficient, and it differs in important ways from that of the Yunnan bat virus, which seems not to infect people5.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01315-7
Exactly as I described!
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
So what can we do going forward?

1. immense bio-factories with trained reserve staff, as in army reserves.

ready to mass produce mRNA vaccines and various live attenuated harmless carrier virus vaccines, ready to go, like our nuclear missiles.

2. bio-factories for live virus carrier-based vaccines. In many cases proteins from dangerous microbes can be engineered into the outer coat of lab viruses as “benign carriers”. The Oxford Covid-19 Vaccine is based on such a technology.

3. massive expansion of bio research labs for bio hazardous germs, with international inspection.

4. expand research in controlling mosquitoes, ticks and other arthropod vectors!

5. an extraordinary push in biochemistry of all germs so we can design effective medicines.

"All germs"? We are still discovering new mammals from time to time, we are far from knowing all different insects (a sub-class of the vaster arthropod class) and there are many, many more different bacterias or viruses than there are different multi-cellular organisms. This is not likely to work.

Back to the subject: the virus is mutating (but of course) and the mutations are under selective pressure to make them evade the human immune system, primed by pre-infections or vaccine. That is the news. Now what happens next?
 

James Lemon

Well-known member
"All germs"? We are still discovering new mammals from time to time, we are far from knowing all different insects (a sub-class of the vaster arthropod class) and there are many, many more different bacterias or viruses than there are different multi-cellular organisms. This is not likely to work.

Back to the subject: the virus is mutating (but of course) and the mutations are under selective pressure to make them evade the human immune system, primed by pre-infections or vaccine. That is the news. Now what happens next?
Researchers have been studying and working with mRNA vaccines for decades. Interest has grown in these vaccines because they can be developed in a laboratory using readily available materials. This means the process can be standardized and scaled up, making vaccine development faster than traditional methods of making vaccines.

mRNA vaccines have been studied before for flu, Zika, rabies, and cytomegalovirus (CMV). As soon as the necessary information about the virus that causes COVID-19 was available, scientists began designing the mRNA instructions for cells to build the unique spike protein into an mRNA vaccine.

Future mRNA vaccine technology may allow for one vaccine to provide protection for multiple diseases, thus decreasing the number of shots needed for protection against common vaccine-preventable diseases.

Beyond vaccines, cancer research has used mRNA to trigger the immune system to target specific cancer cells.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/mRNA.html
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
i was merely broadening the reality of what we must realize is a far greater existential problem.

We have created for a myriad of microbial threats a “flammable“ human covering of planet earth. We are no longer protected by peopke being in relatively isolated clusters.


In the order of your objections:

"All germs"? We are still discovering new mammals from time to time, we are far from knowing all different insects (a sub-class of the vaster arthropod class) and there are many, many more different bacterias or viruses than there are different multi-cellular organisms.
Of course. That’s already understood. We don’t have the giant infrastructure at national command to respond fast enough. The industrial commercial model hasn’t worked this time!
Back to the subject: the virus is mutating (but of course) and the mutations are under selective pressure to make them evade the human immune system, primed by pre-infections or vaccine. That is the news. Now what happens next?
I agree, and stand corrected that THIS is the current problem to face in a focussed way.

But I feel that the answers need to include an international “scale up” of much more fundamental biological and bio-engineering research. As COVID-19 is simple one of many coming plagues!

Asher
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
Researchers have been studying and working with mRNA vaccines for decades. Interest has grown in these vaccines because they can be developed in a laboratory using readily available materials. This means the process can be standardized and scaled up, making vaccine development faster than traditional methods of making vaccines.

mRNA vaccines have been studied before for flu, Zika, rabies, and cytomegalovirus (CMV). As soon as the necessary information about the virus that causes COVID-19 was available, scientists began designing the mRNA instructions for cells to build the unique spike protein into an mRNA vaccine.

Future mRNA vaccine technology may allow for one vaccine to provide protection for multiple diseases, thus decreasing the number of shots needed for protection against common vaccine-preventable diseases.

Beyond vaccines, cancer research has used mRNA to trigger the immune system to target specific cancer cells.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/mRNA.html
Yes, but.

mRNA vaccines are wonderful... on paper. On paper, they allow the lab to develop a new vaccine within, I am not sure... maybe a month. Given sufficient money (and money is not the problem). That is the theory.

But the difference between theory and practice is that, in theory, everything works.

And the difference is actually indicated in your link: "COVID-19 mRNA Vaccines Will Be Rigorously Evaluated for Safety". That takes months and sometimes fails. The vaccine is not safe, shit happens.

But we shall be optimists and suppose the vaccine (or one of the numerous vaccines sent for trial) is deemed safe. We still need to manufacture billions of doses. The whole process: trial, manufacturing and vaccinating takes time.

It seems that the virus is able to mutate a bit faster than that.
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
i was merely broadening the reality of what we must realize is a far greater existential problem.
Asher, we have an urgent problem at hand. I would like to hear your opinion on that problem, since you are versed in the field. My own feeling is: "do not invest in the tourism industry".
 

James Lemon

Well-known member
Yes, but.

mRNA vaccines are wonderful... on paper. On paper, they allow the lab to develop a new vaccine within, I am not sure... maybe a month. Given sufficient money (and money is not the problem). That is the theory.

But the difference between theory and practice is that, in theory, everything works.

And the difference is actually indicated in your link: "COVID-19 mRNA Vaccines Will Be Rigorously Evaluated for Safety". That takes months and sometimes fails. The vaccine is not safe, shit happens.

But we shall be optimists and suppose the vaccine (or one of the numerous vaccines sent for trial) is deemed safe. We still need to manufacture billions of doses. The whole process: trial, manufacturing and vaccinating takes time.

It seems that the virus is able to mutate a bit faster than that.
From what I have understood that the current vaccines will suffice for these new strains but that they are more contagious, all the more reason for a vaccination. There are many questions in regards to pregnancies' etc, and other safety concerns. Keep in mind that the innovative stage of any new technology can take longer to go from .01% to 1 % than it would to go from 1% to 90% in a development cycle. So the more we find out the easier it may be to develop all kinds of wonderful cures! As it stands it sounds very promising and could be the greatest new development to come about in a long time.
 
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Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Asher, we have an urgent problem at hand. I would like to hear your opinion on that problem, since you are versed in the field. My own feeling is: "do not invest in the tourism industry".
Tourism in Christian mediaeval times was a MASSIVE business for the Catholic Church, blessing places with Papal verified miracle cures, saints, relics and the like. This spurned bigger and more ambitious cathedrals, palaces and estates and devoured most of the tall trees of all the woodlands in Europe. It also spread plague!

Similarly today, tourism is a major part of many economies both national and “city-state” scale.

it’s hard to wean an area from their key source of sustenance.

Asher
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
The key to slowing and stopping emergence variants is a massive decrease in the number of folk initially infected.

This means immediate detection and screening, vaccination capabilities on massive scale and multiple means to decrease virus contamination of surfaces and the air.

Air filtration in buildings

Anti microbial paints and cloth
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Which is what China is doing. Hint.
Brutal but saves lives. I new ~ worse variant for about each extra 2-20 million persons infected.

As of 6 months ago there was, (with each new person infected), roughly an approx 1/3 chance of a single base mutation, (usually of no relevance)!

Asher
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
Brutal but saves lives.
Why do you say "brutal"? China built hospitals, they developed the capacity to test millions of people in a few days and they have isolation centers to keep the positive cases off the streets for a week or so. Compare that to Manaus, Brazil, where the most dangerous variant appears to be active and where coffins are pilling up and black market oxygen sells at record prices to people who need it for their elders dying at home.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Why do you say "brutal"? China built hospitals, they developed the capacity to test millions of people in a few days and they have isolation centers to keep the positive cases off the streets for a week or so. Compare that to Manaus, Brazil, where the most dangerous variant appears to be active and where coffins are pilling up and black market oxygen sells at record prices to people who need it for their elders dying at home.
.....and dragged folk of screaming when they disobeyed!

So yes it takes a dictatorship to do a good job or else the virus brutality is even worse!
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
.....and dragged folk off screaming when they disobeyed!
I am not aware of that of that particular event, but yes, I suppose some people are not happy when quarantine measures reach them. This happens everywhere. I recall having seen similar news from the USA.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
I am not aware of that of that particular event, but yes, I suppose some people are not happy when quarantine measures reach them. This happens everywhere. I recall having seen similar news from the USA.
Nothing of the dragnet and scale in the brutal house to house sweeps in Wuhan

Asher
 
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