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Sad Time for the USA and Democracy!

Tom dinning

Registrant*
Tom,

Try to get into gear, my friend! You appear to trivialize a awful happening. It’s as if you are talking about a kids soccer match where parents ended up throwing bottled water at each other and one coach got his foot stomped by some angry matron!

You last “IF such and such“ is so I’ll conceived trivial and superfluous and has no bearing on this grave matter. If a child burns down the shed, the only concern we have is the safety of the child. That doesn’t threaten the Nation State!

Here the President of the most powerful country in the world, committed sedition that led directly to 5 deaths and scores of mercilessly beaten, (now hospitalized), police officers, who tried to protect our legislators.

There is also a clear and present danger he could launch a military attack on Iran before he leaves office!

In addition instead of 8,000 Trump insurrectionists, (many with police and combat training), returning, before the inauguration of the new President, every State Capital is under threat. We could have 100,000 domestic terrorists against 15,000 National Guard, loathe to fire on white patriots

Asher

I’m neither here nor there with the insurrection. It is what it is.
I’m suggesting that those who clammed to disgust and criticism either way for get their part in what eventuates.
You as much as anyone can know that a neglect on one part of a system, no matter how seemingly insignificant, can eventually amount to the patient dieing, or at least becoming very ill.
Ask ourself, how is it possible for the so called greatest democracy on the planet get to this point. Did someone not notice? Did you stand back and pretend it wasn’t happening? Has history unfolded to this?
The happenings of USA right now are as a result of systemic errors in judgement by the entire country. People divide themselves into groups, demand rights, resent responsibility, fail in the well being of all their people, confuse success with achievement, value commodities over old will, inflict their will on others, resent interference, argue pointlessly and do fuck all, bicker instead of compromise, consider military might as the ultimate power.

Really, Ash. Trivialise? I’m fucking serious as I’ve ever been. What I see is childish behaviour from all. Such a system cannot survive without significant change and it won’t be brought about here on OPF with Lemon and you doing one on one

Grow up, Ash. To and do something if you care that much. I don’t have to, except maybe tell my local member I don’t like the US defence being here on my home ground and I’d like him to tell them to piss of. Which I have done, and to the PM and anyone else who’s listening that can make a difference. And vote!
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Much better! I appreciate this last essay as it’s useful and direct.

But don’t flip off US defense so rapidly as I doubt any nation can stand up to China on their own. They want your raw materials. But I doubt inhuman excesses with the Uighars and their expansionism in the South China Sea, really are issues for which each of our countries should have to tackle alone!

ignore the one on one with Lemon. He has space for his views and there a window on ideologies we need to be aware of!

Asher
 

James Lemon

Well-known member
ignore the one on one with Lemon. He has space for his views and there a window on ideologies we need to be aware of!

Asher
Yes in indeed Asher you should stop and wonder why there is such a low moral climate? The road to hell is paved with good intentions! Furthermore you do not have any clue about any of my ideologies. Why care about facts, in this age of indoctrination?
 
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Tom dinning

Registrant*
I must do a spell check from time to time.
I rely too heavily on my iPad to know exactly what I want to say.

The invaders of your democratic centre at least got off their arse and did something about the things they hate.
I don’t condone their approach or their ideals, only their willingness to act.

They suffer the consequences of their anxieties just like everyone else. The causes of their concerns are broadcast in a manner they can understand.

Perhaps ignorance is something the US needs to consider as a priority for action.

Freedom of speech brings with it the freedom for anyone to say anything at all. That in itself has had good and bad results as we see.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Yes in indeed Asher you should stop and wonder why there is such a low moral climate? The road to hell is paved with good intentions! Furthermore you do not have any clue about any of my ideologies. Why care about facts, in this age of indoctrination?
I know your statements perplex me and it’s important to know of other views!
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
They suffer the consequences of their anxieties just like everyone else. The causes of their concerns are broadcast in a manner they can understand.

Perhaps ignorance is something the US needs to consider as a priority for action.
Tom,

it’s not anxiety and severe distress because of ignorance. Rather it’s boiling anger because they truly believe the lies Trump has convinced them are facts.

The pastors tell them Trump is sent by Jesus. They rejoice that he promises to keep out brown people and fight the homosexuals and abortionists!

Then they hear that he won the election by a landslide and as patriots they want to save the nation for the white race. Only 10% of Trump supporters might be that nuts. But they are hurting because of the lies Fed to them by Trump and the right wing echo chambers!

This is a slow putsch!

Asher
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
Both James and Tom are right in their analysis that there is division and a low moral climate and that this should be a cause for concern, of course.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
We are better than what you see, but what you see is true. We are divided to the eye as much as could be. But many of the Trump supporters represented are not his racist base just delusional.

I am optimistic that this event will help us navigate better. Ultimately, we are not mere beasts and we will improve our self governance.

Asher
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
But of course the US is divided. This has been known as a way to stay in power since the Romans: "Divide et impera". Note that the "impera" part is just as important.

Have you found out what was not present at the Capitol?
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
But of course the US is divided. This has been known as a way to stay in power since the Romans: "Divide et impera". Note that the "impera" part is just as important.

Have you found out what was not present at the Capitol?
The “Divide and Conquer” guidance was used well by the British Empire for its conquered people’s.

I don't remember what Prince Machiavelli advised, LOL, but for sure you shouldn’t do it to your own citizens!

Asher
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
Have you found out what was not present at the Capitol?
What you did not see in front of the Capitol were guns. MAGA supporters did not bring guns. If they had brought some, the story would have been different.

The absence of guns is puzzling because, first, this is the USA and you can almost buy automatic weapons in supermarkets and, second, MAGA supporters are very much in favour of the second amendment.

Here you’ll find messages from social networks used by MAGA supporters discussing the attack on the Capitol. They plan to round up the representatives, cut the underground evacuation tunnels and… bring their guns:
I admit that the above source may be a forgery (we cannot prove anything…), but even without that report, it seems quite probable that at least some MAGA supporters would bring weapons. But they did not. There were no shots from the crowd and we do not have report of dozens of people being arrested before the rally because they had guns.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
What you did not see in front of the Capitol were guns. MAGA supporters did not bring guns. If they had brought some, the story would have been different.

The absence of guns is puzzling because, first, this is the USA and you can almost buy automatic weapons in supermarkets and, second, MAGA supporters are very much in favour of the second amendment.

Here you’ll find messages from social networks used by MAGA supporters discussing the attack on the Capitol. They plan to round up the representatives, cut the underground evacuation tunnels and… bring their guns:
I admit that the above source may be a forgery (we cannot prove anything…), but even without that report, it seems quite probable that at least some MAGA supporters would bring weapons. But they did not. There were no shots from the crowd and we do not have report of dozens of people being arrested before the rally because they had guns.
Interesting Jérôme!

It may have been the plan to have some really worked up, upset “defrauded“ Trump followers, get into the faces of Capital Police and be “martyred” as a long term strategic goal to slowly burnish the image of victimization! They are long term planners infiltrating other organizations and getting military training as a long term strategy.

The did succeed as one frantic US servicewoman climbed through a smashed window and fell back shot. So they gained a “martyr” for their cause!

Still, there are 100,000 images and videos collected by the FBI. Who knows what they have.

Asher
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Got at least one! We don’t know yet of Guns in the crowd. But doubtless details will follow as more folk are arrested.


“A man who traveled to Washington with an assault-style rifle last week and threatened to shoot Speaker Nancy Pelosi had also mused about shooting Mayor Muriel E. Bowser of Washington, federal prosecutors said in a court filing on Wednesday.

The man, Cleveland Grover Meredith Jr., was among those charged in federal court after the riot at the U.S. Capitol last week. The government, including images of Mr. Meredith’s weaponry, said he drove to Washington with an assault-style rifle, a Glock firearm with high-capacity magazines and over 2,500 rounds of ammunition. On Thursday, the day after the riot, he sent a text reading, “I may wander over to the Mayor’s office and put a 5.56 in her skull.””

More here in the NYT, and here in CNN!
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
It may have been the plan to have some really worked up, upset “defrauded“ Trump followers, get into the faces of Capital Police and be “martyred” as a long term strategic goal to slowly burnish the image of victimization!
We don't need to imagine the plan. It was published in the open. We just need to watch and listen to message that was repeated over and over to the MAGA crowd: the election is a fraud, Mike Pence is a traitor, storm the Capitol and force Congress to invalidate the elections so that they can be redone.

There are no martyrs in that plan. If you watch the interviews from the people storming the Capitol, they sincerely believed that they would be welcomed as patriots. Nowhere they believed they could be killed.

Of course Trump and his team new better. They knew their crowd would need to use force. Trump had received a letter from Pence that same morning telling him that yes, he would certify the elections as the Constitution demanded.

It therefore stands to reason that they expected their crowd to be able to use force. Hence, it stands to reason that they expected that a part of the crowd had arms and paramilitary training, as was apparently discussed on "parler".

You can watch Trump's rally under the following links. First, just the last segment, with only Trump:


Second, in a worse quality, the complete show with the first speakers. They exercise less restrain than Trump.


You don't need to watch the 4 hours of the rally, of course. Just a few random samples should be sufficient.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
We don't need to imagine the plan. It was published in the open. We just need to watch and listen to message that was repeated over and over to the MAGA crowd: the election is a fraud, Mike Pence is a traitor, storm the Capitol and force Congress to invalidate the elections so that they can be redone.

There are no martyrs in that plan. If you watch the interviews from the people storming the Capitol, they sincerely believed that they would be welcomed as patriots. Nowhere they believed they could be killed.

Of course Trump and his team new better. They knew their crowd would need to use force. Trump had received a letter from Pence that same morning telling him that yes, he would certify the elections as the Constitution demanded.

It therefore stands to reason that they expected their crowd to be able to use force. Hence, it stands to reason that they expected that a part of the crowd had arms and paramilitary training, as was apparently discussed on "parler".

You can watch Trump's rally under the following links. First, just the last segment, with only Trump:


Second, in a worse quality, the complete show with the first speakers. They exercise less restrain than Trump.


You don't need to watch the 4 hours of the rally, of course. Just a few random samples should be sufficient.
Jérôme,

I really do appreciate the careful attention you give to our struggle to maintain fair elections.

I Paris, it cost the lives of many orators and patriots in the National Assembly to debate and hammer through laws to give power to the 4th Estate. The latter, every so often picked them up when the streets were manipulated or figured out that it was now their turn to give up their heads to a bloody basket!

The ideas and promise of representation and safeguards against tyranny and the rights of individual cannot be taken for granted. The Brown Shirts, Bader Meinhof Gang, The Yellow Vests impress and perplex us how they grow popular and are not held to account.

That’s what we have: perhaps up to a million exteme right wingers with a core of about 85,000 racist neo-Nazi fascists, claiming superiority and being wronged and still honorable Christian Patriots!

It’s very hard to get folk to let go of “facts“ in time of uncertainty, where those supposed “facts” are based on lies repeated by Trump, his enablers and News organizations calling out such lies. The latter actually hardens the conviction by the Trump believers of a deep state liberal left wing conspiracy!

Only Trump himself can undo the damage and he treasures his followers, so not much hope there!

But if we have law and a better life for the uneducated whites, we will get some respite!

But they will still seethe, almost sweating blood, until their dying days!

Asher
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
What is important is that there were no guns, while in all logic guns should have been there. The most likely explanation is that the more violent supporters were quietly prevented to come. We already know that the leader of the "proud boys" was arrested the day before the rally on charges dating back to mid December. I believe this are your secret services at work. I believe it may not be a unique case, but of course we will never know.

MAGA supporters were discussing on the social network called “parler”. That network was terminated after the event. That network was relatively poorly secured and my educated guess is that it would be reasonably easy for the FBI to control that network, find out who is really dangerous and who is simply a loud voice, etc... Maybe quietly replace the elements that were arrested by impersonators so that the head of the network do not realise what is going on and there will be no guns at the rally. Amusingly, the app was nuked right after the event, so any proof of alleged FBI tampering is gone.

Basically, the absence of guns is evidence that the US secret services have the situation in control and that you need not fear subsequent riots. There may still be a lunatic or two building a pipe bomb in his garage, but that is almost impossible to control.

The unsolved problem remains that a sizeable percentage of the US population is so discontent about the US politics that they were willing to elect a populist like Trump. I believe this is what both Tom and James were trying to say.
 

James Lemon

Well-known member
In the real world the lefts plan should work when they can afford it. Everyone can have a house and two maids, including the maids !
 
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Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
What is important is that there were no guns, while in all logic guns should have been there. The most likely explanation is that the more violent supporters were quietly prevented to come. We already know that the leader of the "proud boys" was arrested the day before the rally on charges dating back to mid December. I believe this are your secret services at work. I believe it may not be a unique case, but of course we will never know.

MAGA supporters were discussing on the social network called “parler”. That network was terminated after the event. That network was relatively poorly secured and my educated guess is that it would be reasonably easy for the FBI to control that network, find out who is really dangerous and who is simply a loud voice, etc... Maybe quietly replace the elements that were arrested by impersonators so that the head of the network do not realise what is going on and there will be no guns at the rally. Amusingly, the app was nuked right after the event, so any proof of alleged FBI tampering is gone.

Basically, the absence of guns is evidence that the US secret services have the situation in control and that you need not fear subsequent riots. There may still be a lunatic or two building a pipe bomb in his garage, but that is almost impossible to control.

The unsolved problem remains that a sizeable percentage of the US population is so discontent about the US politics that they were willing to elect a populist like Trump. I believe this is what both Tom and James were trying to say.
A fabulous concept! But there were at least several guns brought to DC. But why so few so fat?

So the postulate of a large secret FBI operation is created. Where did tgst idea spring from Jérôme? You read it or it’s just logical to you?

My guess is that the probability of that concept of an FBI intervention being true is as much as 10-12%.

Also, if an Alien was always on the other side of the moon, it would be hard to spot her! That would have a probability of perhaps 0.01% at most

If there was a preventive round up, beside that “Proud Boys” leader, we will find out soon enough.

There are too many moving components in such a wide range operation for it to remain secret very long!

Asher
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Without any proof/evidence, on rentre tranquillement dans le conspirationisme… Déprimant :(
But we are 100%certain that

1. tours of up to 8 MAGA clad supporters we given tours of the capital by Republican staff. So that explains hot they knew there way around the maizes of corridors.

2. From transcripts of Trump supporterswhile reporting from amongst the mob, already roaming around, they had mostly zero interference from Capitol Police!

Thus it appears that this was planned and facilitated to have little need for guns!

Asher
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
It’s good that Ashley Babbit died. Such traitors deserve nothing less!

It’s a consequence of her action. Unfortunately the Capitol Police appear to have mostly stood down in support of the Trump mob, (out of respect for “co-Patriots”), to have mostly allowed the White Supremacist fascists free access!

As to the obsessionally anti-Marxist reporter’s “analysis” of, videos, of the post those total videos, And her reference to Marxist agitators on Okinawa, we can’t look at her as a genuine “analyst” without bias. We must recognize her for what she is: a committed right wing Pro Trump advocate typical of such hardly reliable Tucker Carlson rabid Trump supporters and their ilk.

Typically, they and those who quote them are right wing anti-climate change Covid Mocking cynics, claiming a cloak of Christia identity and righteousness!

The facts will speak for themselves. So far, there has not been a single confirmed identity of any of these imaginary “Antifa agitators” claimed by such highly partisan sources!

Further the FBI and other agencies have discovered no antifa involvement!

could we discover a few Antifa agitators eventually? Perhaps but it makes no difference. A drop or two of blue doesn’t change the color of a gallon of bright red red paint. Hardly any photometer would detect the difference!

Asher!
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
Unfortunately the Capital Police appears to have mostly stood down in support of the Trump mob, (out of respect for “co-Patriots”), to have mostly allowed the white supreme cost free access.
The Capitol police had instructions to de-escalate. So they let the mob enter rooms where they could do little damage. I think it was a smart move.
 
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