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Tegernsee: comparing 2 cameras on Fall colours.

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
We all know that different cameras produce different colours. As I just happened to have two different cameras available and a picturesque landscape, I tried to do a test. For the first set of pictures, the two cameras are left on automatic exposure and I use the jpeg from the camera.

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I tried to match framing as well as possible. The colours are obviously different. The two pictures are taken only a few minutes apart, so light did not change noticeably.
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
For the second set of pictures, I use the "raw" mode and I tried to somewhat match the colours by hand.

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The results are much closer, but still subtly different. It would be possible to match the two more accurately, but this is not the object of the exercise. To me, the exercise was rather "if I like one camera's colours, can I get the same colours from another camera by tweaking settings, without the need of a reference file?".

Please tell me which picture you prefer. I will give the name of the 2 cameras a bit later.
 

James Lemon

Well-known member
I don't know much about the tech stuff but we all interpret colour differently. Judging from the first two I would suggest that the first camera has better dynamic range. When choosing a camera I think more about pixel size rather than quantity.
 
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Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
The second camera appears to be less contrasty or possess less resolution in the hand adjust Camera RAW image.

I presume that was adjusted in something like Capture One, or Photoshop-anything!

Yes, saturation can be accounted for but if the resolutions are so different then details of the ~ centrally located houses are not going to be equal.

I doubt that this is full frame versus APS-C. Rather this is a regular camera versus a digicam or older cell phone!

My iPhone XS Max would likely substitute for the first camera with richer colors.
Asher
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Thanks for this challenge, Jérôme!

Now, we can look at the EXIF data, if it has not been, by now, bern fiendishly extinguished, absent and gone!

Asher
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
The second camera appears to be less contrasty or possess less resolution in the hand adjust Camera RAW image.

This is a test for colour, not resolution. But if you want, here are close details of the raw picture series:

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However and in contrary to what the pictures here would have you expect, the second camera has less resolution. Just keep in mind that I needed to crop the pictures so that framing would appear to be the same, which should not be a problem if we only test colours. Neither camera is a smartphone, BTW. Both cameras are so-called "advanced compact cameras" and a few years old.
 

James Lemon

Well-known member
Are you using the same lens on both cameras: choice of lens would effect contrast,color,sharpness etc would it not?
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, James,
I don't know much about the tech stuff but we all interpret colour differently. Judging from the first two I would suggest that the first camera has better dynamic range. When choosing a camera I think more about pixel size rather than quantity.
I think more about weight.

Best regards,

Doug
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
I would imagine the the first camera is something like a Ricoh GR with a ~ 16 MP processor but the other could perhaps be a 1” sensor with longer focal length to put more of the pixels on that scene.

Asher
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
Are you using the same lens on both cameras: choice of lens would effect contrast,color,sharpness etc would it not?

The cameras have fixed lenses. I must use the lens which is on each camera and indeed it is not the same.

I think more about weight.

The two cameras have about the same weight. Nevertheless, there are several reasons why I much preferred to use one over the other, reasons which have nothing to do with colours, sharpness or dynamic range but rather about practical matters. This will become clear as soon as the cameras are known.

But, I repeat that this test is explicitly about colours. It is not a game of "find the camera", just a question about which colours look more appealing. Once everybody has had a chance to comment about the colours, I will give the camera names.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
In the end, after correction from RAW I prefer the second image, but I can’t say that I am strictly the gray scale, (especially in the clouds). But color does include both saturation and gray scale as well as the transitions between hues, so it's complicated. For the latter, apparent resolution can trick us.

With these caveats, just experiencing the color as isolated as possible, whereas the “out of the camera” results initially give the winning position to camera one, to me, the second camera wins with your RAW processing.

Asher
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
It is interesting that you both prefer the first image, as its white balance is clearly off towards warm colours. I corrected the white balance to be more neutral in the second series, but I could have done it the other way around. This is how it looks like, then.

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Jerome Marot

Well-known member
What is the problem? These are just two cameras, they treat colour differently. I have a subject with a range of natural colours. I point the two cameras at the subject, the colours are different, as expected. I then use standard adjustments in software, like tint and white balance to make the global colour visually similar for comparison and ask which one is more pleasing. If you find the two pictures equally pleasing, that is still a valid answer.
 

James Lemon

Well-known member
It is interesting that you both prefer the first image, as its white balance is clearly off towards warm colours. I corrected the white balance to be more neutral in the second series, but I could have done it the other way around. This is how it looks like, then.

In all of the images presented one has better contrast than the other which also improves sharpness. There are more details in the clouds on the second image and thus a better exposure when looking at the bottom of the cloud. But if you want good natural colors I suggest using an Iphone and not heavy to carry.
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
Of course, but it’s also intriguing to know which cameras you used!

It seems everyone got the chance to answer. The cameras were a Sony RX-1 (first model, 24 MP with low pass filter) and a Sigma DP2 Merrill. The Sony was cropped to match the Sigma. As I said, it was mainly a test of colours and I wanted to see whether the particular technology used by Sigma would give noticeably different colours.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Jérôme,

If either of these cameras happened to be the height of our technical capability today, photography wouldn’t suffer. These are such well made cameras that the RAW files are capable of delivering results that would satisfy any colorist to achieve the look they want!

Instead of buying various PS plugins, one would buy color correction suites!

Fabulous choices!

Corrected I prefer the second!

Asher
 

Derick Miller

New member
This was a really fun game!

I consistently preferred the second image, even in the first set where opinions differed. And also in the set where the color correction was taken the other way. I also found that even going back with the specific request to consider only color.

Before considering “just the color” and even after, it seemed to me that the gradation (transition) of color implied that the second images came from a camera with a larger sensor. Obviously I got this backwards.

I was pretty surprised to find out the cameras in use. Somehow the DP was not in my mental space of possible cameras.

So it is interesting that the smaller foveon sensor delivers the color transition experience I expect from a larger sensor when viewing tiny images on a phone.

This makes me wonder if Sigma will finally deliver a full frame foveon sensor camera in the new L line with Panasonic and Leica. It would have the natural advantage of being one option among a number of solid traditional choices, which would probably give it much better odds of market acceptance.

The offerings so far have had all the disadvantages which plague them (little ISO flexibility, being locked into the obscure Sigma lens mount or being forced to buy fixed-lens cameras, limited sensor size).

The other problem Sigma still needs to solve is post processing RAW files. Writing a check to Capture One for support seems the obvious solution to me.

None of these things (nor anything surrounding foveon) have been easy. But I still hold out hope that it could work.

A solid Foveon solution with a full frame sensor in a viable camera system (with all that that implies about a robust set of solutions in lenses, strobe systems, cameras which can support traditional needs such as video, high ISO, a viable used market, etc) means many more would be willing to take a chance.

Someone who has bought into the L system could, just for the price of a body, gain access to all the extra possibilities a full frame foveon sensor would make possible.

Buying into an obscure system to use a fringe, poorly supported product is only going to appeal to a small minority. But taking a chance when you are already invested in the system...not so hard.

Foveon is also almost as good as a pure monochrome camera, with the added benefit of being able to “mix” the color response without having to suffer the demosaicing “corruption” Bayer and Xtrans suffers going to monochrome.

And they tend to make the UV/IR filter removable, so you also get full spectrum with no conversion cost.

A pretty nice option, if they make it...

Derick Miller
 
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jhone smith

New member
Fall is my favorite time of year to be a landscape photographer living in Vermont. As I enjoyed the final days of summer and start preparing ourselves for the long winter ahead, the trees are doing seasonal preparations of their own. Each day, the forested hillsides change ever so slightly from the varied, vibrant green of summer to the spectacular color display of autumn. It’s hard not to love being a photographer this time of year.
 
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