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The Blue Marble!

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Here's the most recent picture of the earth from space Jan 2012. You can see the entire N. American continent. So what might this mean?

bluemarble_460.jpg

Hint: "What's missing?"

Asher
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Is it just the Oil and Coal Industry that Drives the Anti-Science Lobby?

What amazes me is that if one believes one cannot burn all the carbon in the oil and coal companies reserves, then they are devalued to about 20% of what they are now worth!

But there's other reasons why the right wing conservatives are so ant-science.

  1. A seemingly trivial reason is the education from saturday morning TV cartoons that trained generations of American children that scientists were evil and always planning the next super-weapon to destroy the world.

  2. Add to that the fact that in University, Americans training to be lawyers and go into business, only need to learn about political correctness to get by and understand who Martin Luther King was but there's no requirement to know any science.

  3. Those who are against woman's access to birth control or terminations of pregnancy, even in cases of rape and incest, don't want to here about opposing arguments that might mitigate religious steadfastness to dogma.

  4. Even more precious to the extreme right wing is the notion that homosexuality can never be tolerated as a socially sanctioned way of life. Here social science, comparative anthropology and studies with all animals in the wild are threatening to dogma excluding same sex relations from consideration.

  5. Abortion and Stem Cell research are triggers of moral decay and decadence of the worst kind. Anyway, the right wingers cannot accept global warming since that represents acquiescing to recognition of the beneficial results of stem cell research in returning eyesight to those with macula degeneration and soon, without doubt, curing diabetes and spinal cord injury. Accepting stem cell research means accepting science.

  6. If science is accepted then what? That means accepting evolution, the ridicule of creationism and collapse of a pillar of their faith.

So, to the religious right, even without massive support from the fossil fuel industry, they would be anti-science. Their dogma depends on that! So whenever global warming comes up, it's not just that on the table. The issues that are bound with opposition for stem cell medicine advances as well as rights for gays and lesbians and teaching of "evolution" in our schools.

How are we so backward that politicians have to compete as to who opposed stem cell research and the evidence of global warming first?

Asher
 

fahim mohammed

Well-known member
Asher, you raise very pertinent and, in my opinion, very crucial issues that confront us today.

Religion, Faith, Belief, Science , Ethics, Morality. Elements that have and that shall define the

homo sapiens.

I look forward, with the greatest of interest, the lively discussion that could ensue.

Not as a contributor this time, but as a traveler overhearing people in distant lands speak

about things I too hold dear.
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
These changes are clear, undisputable except by those right wingers competing to outdo themselves in denying global warming.

While I certainly agree that burning millions of years of stored carbon within a century cannot be done without some effect on the environment, I don't think that this particular picture proves anything. North America has had very cold winter with much snow the past years and Europe has presently one of its coldest winters in years. Hélène also noted that there has been more snow in the west of France the past years.

Interestingly and somewhat counter intuitively colder winters may indicate the effects of global warming. For example it was argued that warming changes ocean currents responsible for the warm climate in Europe.
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
  1. A seemingly trivial reason is the education from saturday morning TV cartoons that trained generations of American children that scientists were evil and always planning the next super-weapon to destroy the world.

  2. Add to that the fact that in University, Americans training to be lawyers and go into business, only need to learn about political correctness to get by and understand who Martin Luther King was but there's no requirement to know any science.

  3. Those who are against woman's access to birth control or terminations of pregnancy, even in cases of rape and incest, don't want to here about opposing arguments that might mitigate religious steadfastness to dogma.

  4. Even more precious to the extreme right wing is the notion that homosexuality can never be tolerated as a socially sanctioned way of life. Here social science, comparative anthropology and studies with all animals in the wild are threatening to dogma excluding same sex relations from consideration.

  5. Abortion and Stem Cell research are triggers of moral decay and decadence of the worst kind. Anyway, the right wingers cannot accept global warming since that represents acquiescing to recognition of the beneficial results of stem cell research in returning eyesight to those with macula degeneration and soon, without doubt, curing diabetes and spinal cord injury. Accepting stem cell research means accepting science.

  6. If science is accepted then what? That means accepting evolution, the ridicule of creationism and collapse of a pillar of their faith.


Can we add more conflictual subjects to this list, please?
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Can we add more conflictual subjects to this list, please?

Tongue in cheek, Jerome, or you're serious? Either way, my point is that in many ways, the USA is in the 12th Century as far as accepting rational thinking, logic and science by a majority of the population. Most live in bubbles of delusion and dogma.

Asher
 

Andy brown

Well-known member
Wow Asher.

Taking on some big issues there, Global Warming (climate change) being the most pressing.

My experience with trying to talk sense about this subject (through my involvement in the solar industry in Australia) is that it only leads to frustration.

Right at the moment most of Europe is going through a major cold spell, climate change deniers are all chirping "wow, so this is global warming!! guffaw, guffaw!"

The fact that coincidentally the Arctic is actually having a major 'warm' spell - they'll choose to ignore.

Australia is experiencing a coolish Summer, again Climate Change deniers will have a similar response "Where's your global warming?" and again ignoring that the major flooding occurrences are completely in line with climate change modelling.

Even so, big cold or warm or hot or wet or dry periods can all be part of seasonal fluctuation or natural cycles.
What is happening of course is a steady increase in greenhouse gases and a slow and steady temperature increase (it's not so slow or steady by nature's standards) with its associated problems of melting polar ice, rising sea levels, coral bleaching and rapidly increasing ocean acidification (this one is really scary).

The science is overwhelming on Climate Change, it is real, it is influenced by man and it may have dire consequences (especially for man).

The most frustrating thing for me is the denegration of scientists and the questioning of their motives.
The vast majority of scientists have no other agenda than seeking the truth whatever that might be.

Anyway, let's just say that in trying to understand why the populace is so misguided or blase - remember that the average I.Q is 100 and by definition half the population is below that figure... /shudders

And as for politicians - talk about the people you'd trust least to make a decent decision which affects your life.
 

Cem_Usakligil

Well-known member
Tongue in cheek, Jerome, or you're serious? Either way, my point is that in many ways, the USA is in the 12th Century as far as accepting rational thinking, logic and science by a majority of the population. Most live in bubbles of delusion and dogma.

Asher
I presume that the "USA in the 12th Century" was a typo and should have been the 21st Century? Nevertheless, I recommend reading the Demon-Haunted World by Carl Sagan. The current situation is 100x times worse than when he wrote the book back in 1995. We all need a "baloney detection kit" app installed on our smarter-than-us devices.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
I presume that the "USA in the 12th Century" was a typo and should have been the 21st Century? Nevertheless, I recommend reading the Demon-Haunted World by Carl Sagan. The current situation is 100x times worse than when he wrote the book back in 1995. We all need a "baloney detection kit" app installed on our smarter-than-us devices.

Cem,

I was careful about what I wrote. No typo!

Tongue in cheek, Jerome, or you're serious? Either way, my point is that in many ways, the USA is in the 12th Century as far as accepting rational thinking, logic and science by a majority of the population. Most live in bubbles of delusion and dogma.

And yes, the discussion could be in the controversial topics section, but right now, everyone is good spirited and hopefully no one here is offended!

Asher
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
Tongue in cheek, Jerome, or you're serious?

Obviously, I am not that serious.

Either way, my point is that in many ways, the USA is in the 12th Century as far as accepting rational thinking, logic and science by a majority of the population. Most live in bubbles of delusion and dogma.

Since you live in the country, I'll accept your opinion on it.

Now, I seem to recall that you have some medical training. I suppose that it includes some knowledge about psychology/psychiatry. In the above sentence you wrote that people live in delusion and dogma. Is it possible to change the opinion of someone living in delusion and dogma and if yes, how?
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Obviously, I am not that serious.



Since you live in the country, I'll accept your opinion on it.

Now, I seem to recall that you have some medical training. I suppose that it includes some knowledge about psychology/psychiatry. In the above sentence you wrote that people live in delusion and dogma. Is it possible to change the opinion of someone living in delusion and dogma and if yes, how?

Unfortunately, Jerome, we humans have a blinding fear of death and that creates all sorts of remedial mythologies that compete for survival, just as strains of viruses that infect us do. The ideas that imprison us come from millions of years of adaption from marauding ape-men then hunter-gatherers to iphone carrying 21st century hominids. There's little hope for us unless we can shed the persistent infestation of our advanced brains with primitive magical thinking that likely helped us in the toughest times in our evolutionary development. Amazingly, irrational but controlling ideas can exist in lacunae in an otherwise rationally organized and educated mind. Bigoty, support of football teams, marching to the beat of religious groups or political parties, antithesis to universal health care, racism and such are all examples of mythology-based lacunae of illogic in otherwise rationally guided human behavior.

I see another 2,000 years of backwardness, with science only accepted when it can breed faster horses, yield more crops per acre, open garage doors, start motors or send smart bombs across the oceans to destroy some target. The actual premises of free rational thought taught by Baruch Spinoza, (November 24, 1632 – February 21, 1677) is foreign to most people in the USA as their fear of science and belief in mythology trumps their respect for logical conclusions of rational debate.


bluemarble_460.jpg


So, Jerome, Tracy, Mark, Fahim, Cem, Andy and everyone else who might be wondering why this picture is so important let me say this:

Looking again at the "Blue Marble" makes me feel fortunate to be alive at a time that such a wonderful image can be made of our precious and unique planet earth. It's also humbling!

Furthermore, it has an effect of warning us that there's just this one blue marble for us to play with and it's not replaceable if broken!

Asher
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
Unfortunately, Jerome, we humans have a blinding fear of death and that creates all sorts of remedial mythologies that compete for survival, just as strains of viruses that infect us do. The ideas that imprison us come from millions of years of adaption from marauding ape-men then hunter-gatherers to iphone carrying 21st century hominids. There's little hope for us unless we can shed the persistent infestation of our advanced brains with primitive magical thinking that likely helped us in the toughest times in our evolutionary development. Amazingly, irrational but controlling ideas can exist in lacunae in an otherwise rationally organized and educated mind. Bigoty, support of football teams, marching to the beat of religious groups or political parties, antithesis to universal health care, racism and such are all examples of mythology-based lacunae of illogic in otherwise rationally guided human behavior.

So, basically, your answer to my question "Is it possible to change the opinion of someone living in delusion and dogma?" is "no"?

We're doomed, aren't we?
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
So, basically, your answer to my question "Is it possible to change the opinion of someone living in delusion and dogma?" is "no"?

We're doomed, aren't we?


Jerome,

Thanks for asking once more!

This morning after 3 hours sleep, I can revisit your important question. (I made the mistake of brewing black tea I'd never seen before, while baby sitting in my son's home and was as alert as an owl and thinking too much all last night!)

Let's look at two areas, Kosovo and Germany. Both had overwhelming mind control by their own evolved dogma and seemingly self-consistent delusion. In each case, they were brutally invaded, smashed, conquered and utterly defeated. Then they submitted to the new doctrine which is infused, digested and made part of the living substance of the vanquished people. Kosovo became utterly Muslim and Germany moved from xenophobic, warmongering and cruel to being enlightened democratic and generous.

So, yes, if one were to be ruthless enough, one can switch memes that occupy one's brains. I figure that without extreme suffering, change is unlikely. With extreme suffering stoicism can develop. So there are paths to rescuing brains from dogma, but it's too complex to breach without war or trickery.

Under trickery, the offering of water, loaves of bread or bandages to poor Africans with the bible embedded at the other end, would be a great examples.

So that shows that switches of dogma can be made, but one would have to be ruthless or crafty to penetrate the bubbles of delusion that imprison us.

If social sciences can unravel this problem, we could have a chance of being civilized.

Asher
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Utter Change of Dogma which guides our behavior: 1. Rapid Change

So, basically, your answer to my question "Is it possible to change the opinion of someone living in delusion and dogma?" is "no"?

We're doomed, aren't we?


Fahim,

I've rewritten my post #19 to separate ideas that should stand on their own. I offer an example of an utter switch of a mind from one set of dogma to another. In this case its from evil to good. It's one of the most extreme I can find. It does show that change for the good is possible, even in the worst hard core cases.

So let's look at the mindset of much of Nazi Germany and old Europe it conquered. Over centuries, intolerance was taught and bred into each new generation. Religious intolerance propagated by clerics and rulers in Europe. Then came the French Revolution and the concept of the Rights of Man! Napoleon's army brought this new mindset with his conquering armies throughout Europe.People reluctantly absorbed the new rules as laws but they were not embraced deep in their hearts. This forced equality of the foreigners, the hated Jews, was an the insult to the status quo. There was a brooding and a backlash that was expressed first especially Alsace with the formation of the Antisemite Party, and then in Germany, but the sentiment for payback found favor in much of Europe. The Nazis just expressed these pent up hatred most clearly. It was that the "vermin" contaminating good, noble Ayrian Christian Europe, (Jews, Blacks, Homosexuals and the mentally infirm), where to be expunged from the modern State.

This mindset was not at all new. After all, for hundreds of years, monarchs and prelates had whipped up hysteria against foreigners, especially Jews and Muslims and led Crusades against any "foreign community. The grand crusades would rape and plunder their way through Europe to them do the same to the Muslims in the holy Lands. So Nazi behavior was not new, although it's scale was more massive and the killing more efficient because of industrialization of collection and killing with IBM punch cards, the telephone, trains and concentration camps. When the Nazis invaded new territories, in some cases, the population had already rounded up their own Jews and taken their property even before the Nazi armies arrived! So the mindset of Europe was that of a dogma of xenophobia derision, classifying Jews, blacks and others as being biologically and morally inferior, akin to rats and worthy of mass extinction.

So after a series of magnificent successes, the 3rd Reich, (that was supposed to have lasted 1,000 years), was destroyed, (at massive humans and material loss), by invading allied armies in 1945. Germany was brought to her knees, people were wandering lost in the smashed cities. The army was utterly defeated!

With that the dogma which guided of the vanquished West Germans, (I cannot address the E. German part for lack of knowledge) was easily emptied and that was replaced with new dogma of respect and protection of other cultures. The change was rapid and highly successful.

Such a change, however, did not occur in the other European states as they had not been similarly vanquished for holding those xenophobic and expansionist, superiority views.

I cannot find such an extreme example of a mass switch of values in our lifetime. What occurred in the brains of Germans is to me a most remarkable switching of mental programming which demonstrates that such switches can be utterly complete and astonishingly effective in those changed.

No doubt there are hangers on to the largely extant dogmas, but it's fair to state the the changes likely altered most of the population.

So, is there a way, short of using force, to reprogram our brains to use only rational approaches to our environment? What other ways are there to change for the good?

Asher
 
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Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Utter Change of Dogma which guides our behavior: 1. Very Gradual Change

So, basically, your answer to my question "Is it possible to change the opinion of someone living in delusion and dogma?" is "no"?

We're doomed, aren't we?


Fahim,

Here's the second part of my rewritten ideas from post # 19 on utter change of a minds programming of values. Let's now look where the change is not between evil and good but rather between major life-guiding philosophies. For this discussion, we assume only good for Christianity and the same for Islamic tradition and modes of life and prayer.

In Kosovo it was the Christian Church, some Catholic, (deferring to Rome) and some Eastern Orthodox, (traditionally connected to the Byzantium traditions) that governed the lives of the populations of the towns and villages. For sure the folk were utterly Christian. There were no other guiding dogma or principles in their minds. Everything was either derived from the Christian bible or by the power of the Church and the princes that ruled the land.

With the expansion of the Turkish Empire, being Christian no longer provided survival advantages. Gradually over a 100 to 150 years, villages and towns switched their values. In the end, cohesive communities were utterly devoid of any Christian heritage or influence. Their minds now looked to Constantinople for religion, education and economic advantage. In fact, Christianity was utterly replaced in many areas. no family had any longing for christian teachings as the holy Ku'ran was now the guide and there was total affection for and submission to their new faith as if it was always their own.

This change of mindset was evolutionary. Why did a population change so slowly? One could debate that, but in any case, the change was powerful and affected history since then.

Notice, it's not an issue of good v. bad but rather a change from one set of core values to another, each with different resulting guides to being a good person and following the path expected of a good person. Still, whatever one thinks of the change, it is what it is, a switch in the dogma that populates our brains and governs our thoughts and choices.

Asher
 
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Jerome Marot

Well-known member
Let's look at two areas, Kosovo and Germany. Both had overwhelming mind control by their own evolved dogma and seemingly self-consistent delusion. In each case, they were brutally invaded, smashed, conquered and utterly defeated. Then they submitted to the new doctrine which is infused, digested and made part of the living substance of the vanquished people. Kosovo became utterly Muslim and Germany moved from xenophobic, warmongering and cruel to being enlightened democratic and generous.

So, yes, if one were to be ruthless enough, one can switch memes that occupy one's brains. I figure that without extreme suffering, change is unlikely. With extreme suffering stoicism can develop. So there are paths to rescuing brains from dogma, but it's too complex to breach without war or trickery.

I can't help but put your words in context and you were talking about the US. Are you suggesting that the US be invaded, smashed, conquered and defeated with extreme suffering so that stoicism can develop? What was this tea you have been drinking?
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Fear-Based Cohesion might be the barrier to pierce!

I can't help but put your words in context and you were talking about the US. Are you suggesting that the US be invaded, smashed, conquered and defeated with extreme suffering so that stoicism can develop? What was this tea you have been drinking?


Jerome,

The driving part of this discussion is predicated on a presumed common impressions, belief and understanding that:

  • The Photograph of the Blue Marble is a simple metaphor that powerfully evokes a sense of wonderment and a realization of our fragility, accountability and responsibility for the state of this biosphere.
  • There are great risks in unfettered damage to rivers, land, air and their resources.
  • The planet does not have infinite ability to protect and heal itself.
  • Science and rational discourse offers a way of enriching our lives and protecting our precious heritage of this unique planet.
  • Closed minds and dogmatic rejection of science, hinders our chances of making life on this fragile planet sustainable.
  • Recent history shows minds can be repopulated with more civilized memes but we are not at all skilled in finding peaceful ways of doing that effectively on a wide scale.

If we look around the world, doubtless the blocked-minded state of societies will be discovered widespread. Studying the advances in thinking in West Germany, especially, made in the post-war years would be insightful. In no nation in modern times has such a convincingly deep soul-searching mass change occurred.

I would love to see a comparison with the "guides to thought" in France and Belgium, (which were on the victor's side) or Austria, (which still claims "victim" status since World War II). Did they evolve too or are they actually stuck with the memes that were present at the turn of the 20th Century. I suspect that there has been some progress but would hazard a guess that no one advanced as much as the German people, especially from the West. (The Eastern part of Germany is too far off my experience that I have no opinion of it. They were not vanquished and then liberated, but rather vanquished and raped until fatigue set in.)

If the economy in the USA were to improve substantially, then weakening of fear-based cohesion of the right wing might allow the folk to be educated and less xenophobic and less driven to convert everyone else and join their path to salvation.

So, how do you view my postulate of the common existence of bubbles of delusion and dogma outside of the USA? Do you agree that the Germans are transformed compared to say the Austrians or the French perhaps?

Asher
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Judgement? For a lot of those other sins you outlined above??

Jim,

Judgement belongs to the Lord! Meanwhile, on this earth we have to show the gifts that are beautiful and worth guarding for posterity. Cameras can speak too!

Asher
 

fahim mohammed

Well-known member
I wanted to remain out of this. And with good reason. But...

"Kosovo became utterly Muslim and Germany moved from xenophobic, warmongering and cruel to being enlightened democratic and generous."

I wish the sentence were worded differently. Its implications as it stands, to me, regrettably are very

obvious. The concept of of ' ruthlessness ' along with the above sentence takes on a different meaning.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
I wanted to remain out of this. And with good reason. But...

"Kosovo became utterly Muslim and Germany moved from xenophobic, warmongering and cruel to being enlightened democratic and generous."

I wish the sentence were worded differently. Its implications as it stands, to me, regrettably are very

obvious. The concept of of ' ruthlessness ' along with the above sentence takes on a different meaning.
Fahim,

How should we reword it so it's meaning is fair and true? I don't intend, recognize nor realize any negative meanings here. I could have worded it better and so I beg for your input to describe the process.

Asher
 

fahim mohammed

Well-known member
I am but an ' utterly Muslim ' nomad from the desert Asher. Far be it that I be versed in the

nuances of the English language. Sorry cannot help you there.
 
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