Tracking Down The Wuhan Virus

[James Lemon]

 

[Asher Kelman]

James,

This is a dramatic work of art by a very successful media arm of the Falun Gong.

It’s well composed but may or may not be framed to create a false conclusion.

Namely that the COVID-19 virus is alleged to be an agent that escaped from a Chinese quasi military project in learning how to construct derivatives of their harvested bat Coronaviruses that could infect humans

Read about their reliability here.

I would be much enjoy an equally detailed Virology always report by a group from MIT, CalTech or The Weitzman Institute in Israel.

It could very well be that the virus is wild or lab made but a report from an unbiased source is needed to substantiate the arguments made that this is a recombinant lab-made viral weapon escaped from the Wuhan labs.

Just because Epoch Times is Trump a Conservative supporter, no matter what, I don’t simply dismiss this powerful report. But still I remain alert, interested and yet skeptical.

Certainly, the story as presented is plausible.

But we already know a lot about point mutation rates in the Novel CoronaVirus so there are researchers I might ask.

Asher

 

[Doug Kerr]

Hi James,

Is the "Wuhan Virus" related to the SARS-CoV-2 virus? That is the name of the virus currently causing a pandemic, as assigned by the International Committee on Taxonomy of Viruses (ICTV).

I do note that, however, the World Health Organization (WHO) has concluded that, to avoid misunderstanding that "SARS-CoV-2" refers to the original SARS virus, it would be preferable, in lay publications, to use "COVID-19" both to refer to this new virus and to the disease it causes (even though those are of course two different things). That is not to say that "COVID-19" is the official name of the virus itself (which remains as "SARS-CoV-2").

I've been unable to find which organization refers to some virus as the "Wuhan Virus".

Best regards,

Doug

 

[Jerome Marot]

Certainly, the story as presented is plausible.

But of course. What else?

Except that RNA viruses mutate all the time, so nature offers us new ones every day.

 

[Asher Kelman]

But of course. What else?

Except that RNA viruses mutate all the time, so nature offers us new ones every day.

But how does it get identical components?

You see for it to jump from a bat, it should be something like 99.99 identical!

But these are only 97% identical.

How far apart are we from apes?

Asher

 

[Jerome Marot]

I am not entirely sure what you mean by "identical components". In any case, if the virus mutates long enough, statistically there is something pathogenic is bound to happen after a while. We just don't notice the millions of failed mutations and non-functional viruses.

 

[James Lemon]

Hi James,

Is the "Wuhan Virus" related to the SARS-CoV-2 virus? That is the name of the virus currently causing a pandemic, as assigned by the International Committee on Taxonomy of Viruses (ICTV).

I do note that, however, the World Health Organization (WHO) has concluded that, to avoid misunderstanding that "SARS-CoV-2" refers to the original SARS virus, it would be preferable, in lay publications, to use "COVID-19" both to refer to this new virus and to the disease it causes (even though those are of course two different things). That is not to say that "COVID-19" is the official name of the virus itself (which remains as "SARS-CoV-2").

I've been unable to find which organization refers to some virus as the "Wuhan Virus".

Best regards,

Doug

Hello Doug

Yes the video and many others refers to it as the CCP virus (Chinese Communist Party) and it suggests that this is the entity that created it in a lab in Wuhan.

SARS (severe acute respiratory syndrome) a severe respiratory illness that is caused by a coronavirus (species Severe acute respiratory syndrome-related virus of the genus Betacoronavirus), is transmitted especially by contact with infectious material (such as respiratory droplets or body fluids), and is characterized by fever, headache, body aches, a dry cough, hypoxia, and usually pneumonia

So from a laymen's point of view it would appear that covid 19 causes SARS not the other way around? What is unique about the corona virus is the S protein that latches on to cells. From what I have understood this behavior make this virus deadly and unique compared to all other viruses.

I am sure there will be much controversy surrounding the findings that are referred to in the documentary. I will also suggest that you will see a major shift in the news media narrative regrading the World Health Organization, CCP , the virus, failure to contain it and many other questions.

Countries around the world want answers and are asking lots of questions. But covid - 19 or corona virus is how I refer to it.

Best, regards
James

 

[Jerome Marot]

What is unique about the corona virus is the S protein that latches on to cells.

The weak point of wacko theories is that, usually, a simple google search is sufficient to disprove them. From: https://www.raybiotech.com/covid19-proteins/

The nucleocapsid protein (N-protein) and spike protein (S-protein) are encoded by all coronaviruses, including the coronavirus (SARS-CoV-2, COVID-19) that was first detected in Wuhan City, China, in December 2019. (emphasis added)

So we can rephrase what you wrote to "What is unique about the corona viruses is the S protein that latches on to cells.". Indeed: the protein is called "S" as it encodes the Spikes and if a virus has no spikes, we don't call it "coronavirus" since the spikes are what we call "corona".

 

[James Lemon]

The weak point of wacko theories is that, usually, a simple google search is sufficient to disprove them. From: https://www.raybiotech.com/covid19-proteins/

The nucleocapsid protein (N-protein) and spike protein (S-protein) are encoded by all coronaviruses, including the coronavirus (SARS-CoV-2, COVID-19) that was first detected in Wuhan City, China, in December 2019. (emphasis added)

So we can rephrase what you wrote to "What is unique about the corona viruses is the S protein that latches on to cells.". Indeed: the protein is called "S" as it encodes the Spikes and if a virus has no spikes, we don't call it "coronavirus" since the spikes are what we call "corona".

Jerome

Are you saying that the video is a conspiracy theory? Did you watch the full video?

 

[Jerome Marot]

I did not watch the video, so I purposefully avoided to give an opinion about it. Generally, I avoid to watch anything which appears to be to sensationalistic and designed to play on emotions like fear and xenophobia. Please note that I am not saying the video is itself like that: I don't know, because I did not watch it. I am just saying it appears to be so from the outset.

I also explicitly gave a simple, verifiable info about the S protein. If that info does not much what the video says, you have your answer.

 

[James Lemon]

I did not watch the video, so I purposefully avoided to give an opinion about it. Generally, I avoid to watch anything which appears to be to sensationalistic and designed to play on emotions like fear and xenophobia. Please note that I am not saying the video is itself like that: I don't know, because I did not watch it. I am just saying it appears to be so from the outset.

I also explicitly gave a simple, verifiable info about the S protein. If that info does not much what the video says, you have your answer.

I don"t pretend to know anything about the S protein or its significance. You mentioned before that you don't watch videos. The video shows solid evidence that this virus did not come from a wet market in Wuhan but the Wuhan Institute of Virology .

"Concerns as source
The Institute was rumored as a source for the 2019–20 coronavirus pandemic as a result of allegations of bioweapon research,[18][19] a concept that some US experts have rejected, noting that the Institute was not suitable for bioweapon research, that most countries had abandoned bioweapons as fruitless, and that there was no evidence that the virus was genetically engineered.[5][18] In February 2020, virus expert and global lead coronavirus investigator Trevor Bedford observed that "The evidence we have is that the mutations [in the virus] are completely consistent with natural evolution".[20] On the other hand, even before the outbreak of the pandemic, some virologists questioned whether previous experiments on creating novel coronaviruses in the lab justified the potential risk of accidental release.[21]

During January and February 2020, the Institute was subject to further conspiracy theories, and concerns that it was the source of the outbreak through accidental leakage,[22] which it publicly refuted.[23] Members of the Institute's research teams were also the subject of various conspiracy theories,[24][25] including Shi, who made various public statements defending the Institute.[26] While Ebright refuted several of conspiracy theories regarding the WIV, he told BBC China that this did not represent the possibility of the virus being "completely ruled out" from entering the population due to a laboratory accident" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuhan_Institute_of_Virology

 

[Jerome Marot]

I don"t pretend to know anything about the S protein or its significance.

May I direct you to post #7 in this thread?

 

[James Lemon]

May I direct you to post #7 in this thread?

What about post # 7 ? It would be helpful if you could elaborate. I am only interested in knowing from where in Wuhan it came from?

 

[Jerome Marot]

What about post # 7 ? It would be helpful if you could elaborate. I am only interested in knowing from where in Wuhan it came from?

No, you are not "only interested" in that.

James, I only follow that discussion because it is mildly amusing to me and I am a bit bored in quarantine. Let me put it in a nutshell: you came with a video which, from its title, wants to demonstrate that the virus known as COVID-19 is a creation of the Communist Party of China. That would be amusing if it were posted in the Onion. Then (the post #7), you write (cite): "What is unique about the corona virus is the S protein that latches on to cells. From what I have understood this behavior make this virus deadly and unique compared to all other viruses." Because I had no idea what the "S protein" was, this prompted me to a simple google search, which results I posted. Because post #7 apparently reflected what you had learned from the video, I pointed out what the "S protein" actually was. Basically, James, you post quite good pictures here, but your taste in videos is shit.

From this point, we can carry on with you continuing to argue that it was a nefarious plan of the Communist Party of China or we can simply admit that nature produces deadly viruses all the time, no communist needs to be involved. That is what nature does and, believe me, it has much worse tricks up its sleeve.

 

[James Lemon]

No, you are not "only interested" in that.

James, I only follow that discussion because it is mildly amusing to me and I am a bit bored in quarantine. Let me put it in a nutshell: you came with a video which, from its title, wants to demonstrate that the virus known as COVID-19 is a creation of the Communist Party of China. That would be amusing if it were posted in the Onion. Then (the post #7), you write (cite): "What is unique about the corona virus is the S protein that latches on to cells. From what I have understood this behavior make this virus deadly and unique compared to all other viruses." Because I had no idea what the "S protein" was, this prompted me to a simple google search, which results I posted. Because post #7 apparently reflected what you had learned from the video, I pointed out what the "S protein" actually was. Basically, James, you post quite good pictures here, but your taste in videos is shit.

From this point, we can carry on with you continuing to argue that it was a nefarious plan of the Communist Party of China or we can simply admit that nature produces deadly viruses all the time, no communist needs to be involved. That is what nature does and, believe me, it has much worse tricks up its sleeve.

Great thanks for your explanation! Regardless of the propaganda and whether or not you believe that truth can be stranger than fiction. The question is did the virus originate from the Wuhan Institute of Virology ? There are credible people who would not discount the idea that it did,accidental,or whatever.

Do you have scientific proof that it did not? I am not suggesting any biochemical nefarious plan I only posted a documentary I did not imply that I believe its content. But how would you know that this is crap without seeing the movie and simply arriving at a conclusion based on a title? You can't judge a book by its cover as the saying goes.

 

[Doug Kerr]

My favorite language self-help book is Polish Up Your French.

Best regards,

Doug

 

[Asher Kelman]

I am not entirely sure what you mean by "identical components". In any case, if the virus mutates long enough, statistically there is something pathogenic is bound to happen after a while. We just don't notice the millions of failed mutations and non-functional viruses.

Jérôme, let’s deal with your two general points separately.

1. Sequence drifting from being identical!

According to highly detailed contact and virus clone studies with fully sequence nucleus acid base sequences, the mutations occur slowly, about one base change in every 3 passes between individuals.

Having a 3% change between the very earliest human cases and the related bat viruses and presumed origin, is far too much by many orders of magnitude. As far as I am concerned, 3% is a giant difference.

Such a change, however can easily be obtained when synthesizing a new virus by recombining choice elements.

It’s also unlikely that diverged viruses get a common unique complex surface antigen.

I need to study much more, but these signs point to either that this outbreak is from another source other than the know bar viruses or else it was man made.

I am naturally averse to giving support to groups like religious like Falun Gong, but just because they are generally delusional doesn’t mean they are incorrect in this instance. Let me say that the possibility of the novel coronavirus being man made is not beyond reasonableness atcthis stagevin my review. However, I am no expert in the genome stability of the coronaviruses.

2. Next your second statement:

“In any case, if the virus mutates long enough, statistically there is something pathogenic is bound to happen after a while. We just don't notice the millions of failed mutations and non-functional viruses.”

It depends. It only happens if there is a major selection pressure such as using a weak anti-viral therapy. Then, we select over thousands of replicative cycles, those variants most resistant to that weak therapy.

A strong antiviral, (or multiple drugs used simultaneously), can defeat evolving viruses as has been done with the virus of HIV-AIDS!

Asher

 

[Asher Kelman]

I have now tracked down a key reference that explains the misinterpretation in social media of the Indian research groups preliminary research paper which had been posted for feedback and discussion only and was not yet peer-reviewed!

Essentially, 2 of 3 supposedly unique to “HIV” sequences found in the COVID-19 virus S-protein, (which allows cell attachment), are actually also found in bat Coronavirus genetic sequences from other bat isolates. The third piece is tiny and not very surprising to be found independently. So there is no great smoking gun defined, as yet!

Asher

 

[Jerome Marot]

Do you have scientific proof that it did not?

That is an impossible task, so: no, I don't. Of course, I don't. The whole fallacy rests on the fact that it is impossible to disprove.

You can't judge a book by its cover as the saying goes.

The saying is wrong. Let me give an example with two random books:

​

Anyone having used a library knows that we do judge book by their cover. That is what the cover is there for. In this example, even the design is telling.

Now, if you excuse me, I'll move the discussion to the thread https://openphotographyforums.com/f...hobic-ideology-linked-to-serious-tasks.23929/ where it may be more relevant.

 

[James Lemon]

There is nothing 'fake' about lab accidents," said Richard Ebright, a molecular biologist and director at the Waksman Institute of Microbiology at Rutgers University in New Jersey, US. "There also is nothing 'conspiratorial' about lab accidents."

SARS and other coronaviruses are not considered airborne or lethal so experiments on them are allowed in laboratories of a lower safety level, where full-bodysuits and complete decontamination for lab technicians are not necessarily required. Anyone handling the virus could become an unwitting carrier.

He points out that after the initial outbreak, SARS virus leaked from labs in Singapore and Taipei, as well as twice in Beijing.

And last December, a leak of the bacterium Brucella from a veterinary lab in Gansu province infected more than 100 people.

Scientists who are sceptical of the lab leak hypothesis believe there was probably an intermediate host for the virus before it made the leap to humans, as there was during the 2003 SARS outbreak.

COVID-19 coronavirus bears such a close resemblance to the SARS coronavirus that it was officially termed SARS-CoV-2.

Yet, Shi and her American collaborators have shown that in a laboratory environment bat coronaviruses can jump directly to humans.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020...ds-leads-theories-origin-200407073509327.html

 

[Asher Kelman]

Before sequencers, one needs huge amounts of virus for DNA studies. I worked for decades with unimaginable doses of smallpox and herpes viruses with no hood, no mask and neither me nor my graduate students were infected!

But I did get one needle stick with a monkey Herpes Virus, but drove at 90 mph to the ER and had that deeply excised and developed no infection!

So apart from such screw ups, it’s rare!

Asher

 

[James Lemon]

Before sequencers, one needs huge amounts of virus for DNA studies. I worked for decades with unimaginable doses of smallpox and herpes viruses with no hood, no mask and neither me nor my graduate students were infected!

But I did get one needle stick with a monkey Herpes Virus, but drove at 90 mph to the ER and had that deeply excised!

So apart from such screw ups, it’s rare!

Asher

Sure it is one thing to knowingly poke yourself with a needle.Contracting a virus without knowing for a a period of time is different. Considering that this virus has an an average incubation period of 5 days.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Sure it is one thing to knowingly poke yourself with a needle.Contracting a virus without knowing for a a period of time is different. Considering that this virus has an an average incubation period of 5 days.

But smallpox in months to years! Not many folk alive have grown that virus! And I was not vaccinated and worked in a smallpox epidemic in Nigeria in close contact with patients and no masks!

But in Zimbabwe, in the hospital to care for black Africans only, I did mouth to mouth resuscitation on a boy with hepatitis and he regurgitated in my mouth. He passed.

I had severe illness with jaundice was hospitalized in my own room in the hospital for Europeans only.

A beautiful nurse, cared for me. She would draw the curtains on the large window to the corridor to attend to my needs,

.... her long blonde hair and fragrance enveloping me! I always prayed she locked the door!

She didn’t catch the virus either!

Asher

 

[James Lemon]

But smallpox in months to years! Not many folk alive have grown that virus! And I was not vaccinated and worked in a smallpox epidemic in Nigeria in close contact with patients and no masks!

But in Zimbabwe, in the hospital to care for black Africans only, I did mouth to mouth resuscitation on a boy with hepatitis and he regurgitated in my mouth. He passed.

I had severe illness with jaundice was hospitalized in my own room in the hospital for Europeans only.

A beautiful nurse, cared for me. She would draw the curtains on the large window to the corridor to attend to my needs,

.... her long blonde hair and fragrance enveloping me! I always prayed she locked the door!

She didn’t catch the virus either!

Asher

That"s a great story Asher! I have missed work on many occasions from being sick in bed with a brunette or blonde.