Asher Kelman
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
I am planning to at least handle and hopefully shoot the M8 this weekend.
Any questions I should ask?
Asher
Any questions I should ask?
Asher
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Who has used the new Leica M8 and what do you think about it?
- Thread starter Asher Kelman
- Start date
Bart_van_der_Wolf
pro member
Asher Kelman said:
The questions I asked at Photokina just triggered the 'politically correct, or 'learned', response; "In practical use, aliasing artifacts are not too much of an issue". In reality, they tend to ruin a shot when you can least use it.
If you get a chance shooting, try including some sharp roof edges / powerlines / distant brick building walls at an angle / brick streets. They may not be your types of subjects, but they will test the extremes for a non anti-aliasing filtered Bayer CFA sensor. Also the effectiveness of the anti-vignetting micro-lens layout could be tested by shooting a uniformly lit surface (e.g. cloudless or totally clouded sky).
If you really want to get to the 'bottom' of things, shoot pairs of black-frames (fastest shutterspeed, with lenscap on, and viewfinder covered), for each ISO setting. That will allow to judge 'read-noise' performance, which is an important factor in Dynamic range calculations.
Bart
Asher Kelman
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
I'll look at moire tomorrow. They are tough in letting me photograph with my card!
I'll also try to do the noise test.
My impression is that the camera is very well made and easy to focus. The focus mechanism for manual focusing is a million times better than using an Eos camera.
The viewfinder is also very bright. Luxurious, I'd call it.
The maginifier for looking at the shot is a ring top turn with arrows to move the image: so simple, no pushing several buttons!
This is one simple perfectly designed camera.
A pleasure to hold and shoot with.
Until I get the files, however, I cant say a thing beyond the color looks great on the LCD.
One last thing is that the shutter sound is louder than the M6 and has two components. A metal sound and a dull sound. Quieter than the 1DII or the 5D.
More later!
Asher
I'll also try to do the noise test.
My impression is that the camera is very well made and easy to focus. The focus mechanism for manual focusing is a million times better than using an Eos camera.
The viewfinder is also very bright. Luxurious, I'd call it.
The maginifier for looking at the shot is a ring top turn with arrows to move the image: so simple, no pushing several buttons!
This is one simple perfectly designed camera.
A pleasure to hold and shoot with.
Until I get the files, however, I cant say a thing beyond the color looks great on the LCD.
One last thing is that the shutter sound is louder than the M6 and has two components. A metal sound and a dull sound. Quieter than the 1DII or the 5D.
More later!
Asher
scott kirkpatrick
Member
-- that's not saying much!
Can you compare the shooting noise (shutter release, then rewind) with an E-1 or with a typical P&S with the lowest level "click" enabled?
Another set of questions -- viewfinder eye relief. When you are working at 35 mm-eff focal length, and have glasses or sunglasses on, can you see the framing lines? ... outside the framing lines? Is there a setting for 28 mm-eff (my recollection is that you need an external viewfinder for that) and if there is, is it usable with glasses?
Will you get a chance to handle and use the 16-18-21 and its associated viewfinder? Are you trying it with the 28/2.8 ASPH mounted, to give a 36+ mm-eff ? That's such a contrasty lens, that I would wonder how well the camera's exposure metering and image processing handles high dynamic range scenes when you work in aperture-primary mode, esp. to produce a jpeg output. Is it necessary to correct exposure, or does it just do the right things?
scott
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Mike Spinak
pro member
I've been told by someone who has used this camera that the ease of focusing varies, depending on the focal length of the lens you are using: shorter focal lengths are easier, and longer focal lengths are harder. I was told that, with a 90 mm lens (the longest that is recommended, with this camera), the rectangle you are looking through to focus is rather small, and focusing becomes more difficult.
Mike
www.mikespinak.com
Jack_Flesher
New member
Mike Spinak said:
Mike: If you've ever shot with an M camera, that comment simply makes no sense: The focus patch does not change with focal length. It IS true that the RF base-length is a lower percentage of focal length as you go up in focal, but it is still significantly wider than a comparable "split finder" in any SLR and will offer far more accurate focus than said SLR...
The *framing* patch of course changes with focal, but the focus patch does not, and this makes it more difficult to *frame* precisely as you move up in focal. Here I would agree that a 90mm lens is pushing it on an M8.
Cheers,
Mike Spinak
pro member
Jack,
Apparently I had misunderstood. Thank you for the correction and clarification.
Cheers,
Mike
www.mikespinak.com
Apparently I had misunderstood. Thank you for the correction and clarification.
Cheers,
Mike
www.mikespinak.com
Kirk Thompson
New member
What I really want to know is what the images look like! Has Leica (I still want to say "Leitz") been successful in what amounts to simulating a concave sensor, & will image quality match DSLRs of the same resolution?
Asher Kelman
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Hi Kirk,
When I first saw the images on Sean Reid's great website, I was impressed. Now Sean is a good photographer and has great judgment based on many years of photography experience with Leica Rangegfinders and lately with Epson RD-1. Ben lifson, an accomplished photographer agreed swith Sean on the RD-1. So I'd give a lot of weight to Sean's opinion.
I cannot say more than that iamges appeared on the LCD screen! They look good and can be zoomed in to reveal good detail. However, beyond meaning that, yes, the camera is working, I can't say more on the image. Leica representative for California were under instructions to not let this camera out of hteir site or allow files to be taken home, as the firmware was one of the first prototypes. I don't understand why they can't simply upgrade to new firmware if that's the case!
My impression is that Leica has made a major commitment to jump to the top of the pack. They might do it! I will be writing much more on the use of the Leica Rangefinder camera for film and the ergonomics for someone divorced from Rangefinders for so long.
I'll be resting the M8 when it is available with completed firmware.
Asher
When I first saw the images on Sean Reid's great website, I was impressed. Now Sean is a good photographer and has great judgment based on many years of photography experience with Leica Rangegfinders and lately with Epson RD-1. Ben lifson, an accomplished photographer agreed swith Sean on the RD-1. So I'd give a lot of weight to Sean's opinion.
I cannot say more than that iamges appeared on the LCD screen! They look good and can be zoomed in to reveal good detail. However, beyond meaning that, yes, the camera is working, I can't say more on the image. Leica representative for California were under instructions to not let this camera out of hteir site or allow files to be taken home, as the firmware was one of the first prototypes. I don't understand why they can't simply upgrade to new firmware if that's the case!
My impression is that Leica has made a major commitment to jump to the top of the pack. They might do it! I will be writing much more on the use of the Leica Rangefinder camera for film and the ergonomics for someone divorced from Rangefinders for so long.
I'll be resting the M8 when it is available with completed firmware.
Asher
Mike Spinak
pro member
From what I have been told by someone using this camera, the images are very sharp on a per-pixel level, and at least on par with... perhaps better than... other cameras of similar resolution. The noise was described to me as a little worse than the Nikon D2X's noise.
Mike
www.mikespinak.com
Mike
www.mikespinak.com
Zalman Stern
New member
Jack is correct in that it is the framing that gets tricky more so than the focusing. The rangefinder has a focusing patch which is perhaps the same width as the center circle in a Canon 1D-series focusing screen and about 2/3rds the height of said circle. Alternatively, perhaps 4 to five times the width and twice the height of the illuminated focus point confirmation rectangle. (Note that these "measurements" are guesses taken visually and are relative to the field of view. The rangefinder viewfinder is likely a little bigger than a full frame 100% coverage 35mm SLR viewfinder.)
With regard to framing, the 24mm frame lines are almost the whole viewfinder and the 90mm ones are about three times the width and height of the focusing patch. (Leica says 135mm lenses are very difficult to frame reliably on the M8.)
I am guessing that focusing is a bit trickier with longer lenses in some circumstances as the detail you are trying to capture is further away and thus appears smaller. Depending on the scene, this may or may not matter. E.g. I find focusing on a tree full of leaves, with the tree mostly filling the viewfinder, a bit tricky. The fractal nature of leaves and branches makes many places in the tree appear similar and it is thus easy to get confused about what one is seeing in the rangefinder. I find myself having to pick a unique branch, preferably without much foliage to use for focusing. No big deal, but it is something one has to learn.
The rangefinder works incredibly well for low-light focusing. In a dark room lit only by monitor light (metered at 1/4s to 1/8s, f/1.4@ISO1600) I can reliably focus on poster edges, dim reflections in windows, and the boundary between the window and the wall. The 1DsMkII with 35mm f/1.4, 50mm f/1.4, 85mm f/1.2, and 135mm f/2, centerpoint selected, will not lock focus on these features or any other I can find. (With the 35mm it seems to focus in the right place, but will not lock.)
One more test of rangefinder focusing is to stand about five feet from a door way. The idea is to set it up so when standing parallel to the door centered on one edge of the frame, the other edge is more or less on the vertical third line. Focus the range finder on the centered edge and then turn so the other edge is centered. This is a test for focus and recompose accuracy. In my recent experience, the rangefinder will show the other edge slightly out of focus after turning. (Though one can probably use the very edge of the rangefinder patch to help matters.)
-Z-
With regard to framing, the 24mm frame lines are almost the whole viewfinder and the 90mm ones are about three times the width and height of the focusing patch. (Leica says 135mm lenses are very difficult to frame reliably on the M8.)
I am guessing that focusing is a bit trickier with longer lenses in some circumstances as the detail you are trying to capture is further away and thus appears smaller. Depending on the scene, this may or may not matter. E.g. I find focusing on a tree full of leaves, with the tree mostly filling the viewfinder, a bit tricky. The fractal nature of leaves and branches makes many places in the tree appear similar and it is thus easy to get confused about what one is seeing in the rangefinder. I find myself having to pick a unique branch, preferably without much foliage to use for focusing. No big deal, but it is something one has to learn.
The rangefinder works incredibly well for low-light focusing. In a dark room lit only by monitor light (metered at 1/4s to 1/8s, f/1.4@ISO1600) I can reliably focus on poster edges, dim reflections in windows, and the boundary between the window and the wall. The 1DsMkII with 35mm f/1.4, 50mm f/1.4, 85mm f/1.2, and 135mm f/2, centerpoint selected, will not lock focus on these features or any other I can find. (With the 35mm it seems to focus in the right place, but will not lock.)
One more test of rangefinder focusing is to stand about five feet from a door way. The idea is to set it up so when standing parallel to the door centered on one edge of the frame, the other edge is more or less on the vertical third line. Focus the range finder on the centered edge and then turn so the other edge is centered. This is a test for focus and recompose accuracy. In my recent experience, the rangefinder will show the other edge slightly out of focus after turning. (Though one can probably use the very edge of the rangefinder patch to help matters.)
-Z-
scott kirkpatrick
Member
Production level firmware is now out for M8
Out to reviewers, that is, but there are a lot of them. Sean Reid has posted his review on his (subscription, but it is worth it) site, www.reidreviews.com with pictures and an enthusiastic description of the camera's "feel." More detailed examination of specific lenses on the M8 in coming weeks. And the leica-camera-users forums have some posted images with the latest firmware. LL review is scheduled later this week.
It looks very nice. I hope to get one in December.
scott
Out to reviewers, that is, but there are a lot of them. Sean Reid has posted his review on his (subscription, but it is worth it) site, www.reidreviews.com with pictures and an enthusiastic description of the camera's "feel." More detailed examination of specific lenses on the M8 in coming weeks. And the leica-camera-users forums have some posted images with the latest firmware. LL review is scheduled later this week.
It looks very nice. I hope to get one in December.
scott
scott kirkpatrick
Member
Zalman Stern said:
For a glasses-wearer like me, the 24mm lines are going to be a stretch. I expect that a 28mm (turns into 37mm-eff) will work really well, a 35mm (47mm-eff) will be a comfortable normal lens, and the 50mm (67mm-eff) becomes the "portrait" or head-and-shoulders lens. Beyond that, for me at least, the SLR presentation of longer lenses in which you can see the background go out of focus is more natural than rangefinder viewing.
I'll try that.
scott
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Asher Kelman
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Sean Reid's review, part 2 is online. This should give the final report on images!
I've got a login problem so I can't see it yet! I'll try again later!
Asher
I've got a login problem so I can't see it yet! I'll try again later!
Asher
Will_Perlis
New member
I played with one for a couple of minutes at Samys this afternoon. It feels like an M6 on steroids, I think it's a little louder but not much, but I have lots of high freq. hearing loss so don't take my word for it.
I've got one dng from it, taken with whatever lens was on the camera (24mm or 28mm ?), hand-held at 1/60 and according to the EXIF, at 320 ISO. The f-stop didn't get tranferred. Anyone want the file? Email me at wperlis at gmail dot com It's around 10Mb.
I could be seduced by it, I think. I'll be waiting for an accessory grip tho'. I've always had trouble holding soap.
I've got one dng from it, taken with whatever lens was on the camera (24mm or 28mm ?), hand-held at 1/60 and according to the EXIF, at 320 ISO. The f-stop didn't get tranferred. Anyone want the file? Email me at wperlis at gmail dot com It's around 10Mb.
I could be seduced by it, I think. I'll be waiting for an accessory grip tho'. I've always had trouble holding soap.
Asher Kelman
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
So they're letting you keep the images! They didn't allow that 2 weeks ago. Was there a big line to see the camera? Why dont you post some 100% cuts from the file and the image itself say at 1200 pixels max. Do you have any opinion on hte file?
Asher
Asher
Will_Perlis
New member
Asher,
Walter was behind the counter, and there was just one other person there besides me. He just shrugged when I asked if I could put my own card in. He took the card and did it for me, then took it out when I was finished. I didn't play with it for long, my eyes were dead tired and I was having trouble focussing. That problem is definitely mine at the end of Friday, not the camera's.
I'll see if I can figure out how to get some samples up where you can see them. I figured most people interested in the M8 would want an actual file to play with. It opens with no problem in Lightroom and ACR.
I like the file. The colors I'm seeing are a bit garish because of those colored lights over the counters in the Fairfax store and probably my incompetence in tweaking. There's great detail I think, but I'll have to go back and shoot with the 1D2 and the most equivalent lens to really compare.
Walter was behind the counter, and there was just one other person there besides me. He just shrugged when I asked if I could put my own card in. He took the card and did it for me, then took it out when I was finished. I didn't play with it for long, my eyes were dead tired and I was having trouble focussing. That problem is definitely mine at the end of Friday, not the camera's.
I'll see if I can figure out how to get some samples up where you can see them. I figured most people interested in the M8 would want an actual file to play with. It opens with no problem in Lightroom and ACR.
I like the file. The colors I'm seeing are a bit garish because of those colored lights over the counters in the Fairfax store and probably my incompetence in tweaking. There's great detail I think, but I'll have to go back and shoot with the 1D2 and the most equivalent lens to really compare.
Asher Kelman
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Thanks Will!
I was impressed by the M8 until I used the Leica R9 with the DMR.
Then I shot for an hour with the Leica M7 film camera to get a feel for the rangefinder focus again. That camera is so quiet!
I forgot until this moment that I need to develop the film! What a quaint but important thing to do! I put the roll aside, then it totally slipped my mind as all of the CF cards and SD cards were transferred safely!
I felt that usual sense of calm, reassurance and satisfaction that nothing had been overwritten and all the files were safe!!
If my film pictures are in focus, then I know I'm still competent to handle the M8!
Asher
I was impressed by the M8 until I used the Leica R9 with the DMR.
Then I shot for an hour with the Leica M7 film camera to get a feel for the rangefinder focus again. That camera is so quiet!
I forgot until this moment that I need to develop the film! What a quaint but important thing to do! I put the roll aside, then it totally slipped my mind as all of the CF cards and SD cards were transferred safely!
I felt that usual sense of calm, reassurance and satisfaction that nothing had been overwritten and all the files were safe!!
If my film pictures are in focus, then I know I'm still competent to handle the M8!
Asher
scott kirkpatrick
Member
Asher Kelman said:
Don't forget that you'll have to scan the film! Can't look at an image without the bits.
I'm in the same boat, waking up an M2 from its long sleep. Now I have some rolls of C41-developable test shots that will go to the local store for development and medium res scan, coming back to me sorta like a PhotoCD. I hope I can make sense of my notes when I get the bits back. One problem that the M8 has is that the EXIF can't tell you what aperture was used.
scott
Will_Perlis
New member
Let's see if these at least give a small hint of what the M8 is like. Remember, this was done by a guy with low blood glucose shakes and bleary eyes at the end of a long week, I didn't pay much attention to metering or focus other than attempting to focus on the neon sign at the end of the store. That was somewhat difficult because it has multiple images in real life.
http://picasaweb.google.com/hwillpix/M8test
http://picasaweb.google.com/hwillpix/M8test
scott kirkpatrick
Member
The full store one came out sharp and the colors are pleasing. Care to share the .dng files?
scott
scott
scott kirkpatrick
Member
Will, thanks for the .dng. Looking at your picture a little bigger than Picasa will let me, I realize this is a good example of the trick that was presented in LL a few days ago -- focus on infinity. The cameras in the very last case in the store are sharp and clear, and everything closer is seen well enough to be extremely convincing. You have to blow them up to realize that they are not actually in focus. I'm looking at colors to see if the currently available tools give oversaturated color (and can that be easily fixed) and you certainly have some cool colors in the shot.
scott
scott
Will_Perlis
New member
Good, it made it through. I finally remembered my PacBell password, anyone else who wants it can get it from here:
http://home.pacbell.net/perlisw/M8.DNG
http://home.pacbell.net/perlisw/M8.DNG
Daniel Harrison
pro member
Thanks for the file looks very interesting. A few things i noticed
1. is that Moire on the back of the guy in the lines shirt?
2. The noise looks very high for ISO 320, and there seems to be alot of noise reduction going on, for instance the pants have that smeared black with gey dots look. If i drag the image around in Adobe Raw it is very noisy and then settles down again to the processed look, not sure what is going on.
Personally I think it looks very dissapointing. It may be good in good light as it is probably quite sharp, but Moire in that photo is a bit extreme, and the noise worries me. I have no doubt the body will be great.
Anyway we shall soon know.
1. is that Moire on the back of the guy in the lines shirt?
2. The noise looks very high for ISO 320, and there seems to be alot of noise reduction going on, for instance the pants have that smeared black with gey dots look. If i drag the image around in Adobe Raw it is very noisy and then settles down again to the processed look, not sure what is going on.
Personally I think it looks very dissapointing. It may be good in good light as it is probably quite sharp, but Moire in that photo is a bit extreme, and the noise worries me. I have no doubt the body will be great.
Anyway we shall soon know.
Will_Perlis
New member
That sure looks likes a Moire pattern to me. I'm not sure about the noise, I had to go well over 100% to see it. I'd have to see a controlled comparison with something like a 1D or 1Ds to make a call.
The changes you see during dragging is due to, I think, an Adobe artifact as it reprocesses the section being looked at. It certainly can't be anything Leica is doing.
If the M8 is seriously generating Moire patterns on fabrics there are going to some disappointed wedding shooters keeping their credit cards in their wallets.
The changes you see during dragging is due to, I think, an Adobe artifact as it reprocesses the section being looked at. It certainly can't be anything Leica is doing.
If the M8 is seriously generating Moire patterns on fabrics there are going to some disappointed wedding shooters keeping their credit cards in their wallets.
Andrew Stannard
pro member
Hi,
Guess quite a few of you may already have found it, but there is a good review of the M8 now up on the Luminous Landscape. It's very positive, although as MR points out he has always been a fan of Leica.
Cheers,
Guess quite a few of you may already have found it, but there is a good review of the M8 now up on the Luminous Landscape. It's very positive, although as MR points out he has always been a fan of Leica.
Cheers,
scott kirkpatrick
Member
herringbone Moire
I could see it at 200% enlargement of the jpeg that I made in C1 and it was barely visible when I developed the file in C1, viewing it in the preview at 200%. There are postprocessing tricks for handling this, if it can't be ignored, but they take layers and brushes... things i prefer not to have to do.
scott
I could see it at 200% enlargement of the jpeg that I made in C1 and it was barely visible when I developed the file in C1, viewing it in the preview at 200%. There are postprocessing tricks for handling this, if it can't be ignored, but they take layers and brushes... things i prefer not to have to do.
scott
Asher Kelman
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
What moire plugins do people have? Also how does the M8 noise clean up with different methods?
Asher
Asher
scott kirkpatrick
Member
C1's Moire plug-in for Photoshop
Is a standard. In the Reid review (installment #2) he shows how to use it on a hat that he found some Moire in. He saved the un-Moired hat on a layer and brushed that solution onto just the regions in which the problem occurred, leaving the rest of the image at full resolution.
scott
Is a standard. In the Reid review (installment #2) he shows how to use it on a hat that he found some Moire in. He saved the un-Moired hat on a layer and brushed that solution onto just the regions in which the problem occurred, leaving the rest of the image at full resolution.
scott
Daniel Harrison
pro member
So That is Moire, thanks for the confirmation. I was looking on my laptop screen and it accentuates noise greatly, so it probably isn't as bad as it seems, but I still think there is something going on with the noise and noise reduction. I'll have to have another look later on my PC
Thanks!
Thanks!